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Top Shelf Exotics (Inquiry)

Proof?

Dennis,
Yes, I was given photo documentation with the snakes. I have a scanned copy of the vets report, but I don't know how to post it here. I will gladly email the vet report and the paperwork if you like just PM an email address. I wonder what you think this photo guarantee is proof of? These are het for Pied. The guarantee is only as good as the company that stands behind it, so I suppose mine are worthless.
 
Dennis: "There has never been a post in regards to the poor quality of animals sold byTSE."

In this same thread someone recieved a 48 gram snake that died within days from malnutrition etc. Was supposed to be CBB and het for Pied. What does that sound like to you? Poor husbandry alone?

How many other dealers/breeders would send a snake in that condition?

Did anyone else find it a little strange that they talked replacement so quickley. I mean a 1600$ snake. Why was a snake in that condition sent. Does that sound like a CBB animal? Do they have so many true Pied hets that they can ship a replacement out without more due diligence. I am in no way saying the reciever did anything wrong. Of course he wanted a replacement. I am would be more worried that a replacement was offered so easily for such an expensive animal.


Chris Rouille
 
Belly picture

I think Dennis meant that it would be helpful to see a picture of the sick snake, showing the belly rot...not necessarily a picture of the guarantee.
 
lucille said:
There is obviously a health issue involved. The details are irrelevant. It matters little exactly WHAT is making him too ill to do business.
Click to expand...

Lucille, would you agree that at a minimum, the public should have been made aware of the fact that Chris was no longer involved in the day to day operation of TSE? How many people made purchases based on the reputation that Chris built, and were totally unaware that he was ill and no longer running his business?

I would speculate that perhaps some people would have given a second thought to sending TSE their money had they been made aware of the change in management.

They manage to post ads every day, they SHOULD have at a minimum modified the ad(s) to state that TSE was under new management.
:yesnod:
 
Bob,
Put me on the side that sees little point in posting photos. I certainly will have to disagree with anyone feeling that you need to do it. The vets report would speak far more to the actual condition, and unless someone is calling you a liar, I see no need to post more about it than you already have. The issue regarding the sick animals is IMO more one of how TSE handles it at this point, and so far it has done nothing. Let TSE dispute the evidence if they feel it false.

I can see both sides of the medical information issue. Since it was made a part of the excuse for the current lapses in service by TSE and Chris, I'm going to have to agree that its fair game for people to speculate about. Can't stop it anyway. The integrity of the hets is only as good as the integrity of the seller, which has taken a big hit of late. If I had hets from TSE yet to prove out, I would be more worried now than I had been a month or two ago. How could one not be?

I can imagine a medical condition, knowing what we've been told, that would keep Chris away from the business for an extended period of time, with minimal involvement. But now that a light is being shone on is business as it is, to include transactions and policies that he did participate in, it does not excuse those things, as has been said by many. My intuition tells me that any business which often maxes-out its daily 20 package limit with Fed Ex should be doing very well financially, more than enough to be adequately staffed. I would expect a few speed bumps right after Chris was stricken, but not all that the customers have been asked to swallow because its a job for just two guys who can't keep up and Fedex doesn't want to make money. As someone has pointed out, it never stopped the ads or the before-sale customer service. All the issues ... husbandry, het integrity, who's minding the store and why, etc, would be fair game at this point IMO for those who had a financial stake in it.
 
Just 2 points of information

regardless of Chris's illness, he is personally responsible and liable for anything that occurs through TSE. Apparently this is a business not protected through a limited liability as a corp. So if you feel that you have been scammed in any way, you can sue Chris personally as well as TSE. Also please note, that their is a point of no return with his employees. They can always quit, if things get out of hand. They have no liability to assume unless they are principles as well.

Secondly, for those who paid TSE by paypal, you better check the fine writing in the agreement you agreed to when you began using their service. Once you accepted their terms, you basically allowed paypal to become the final arbitrator of the dispute. You can call your credit card company up, and they may or may not charge back the disputed item because it would be against Paypal and not TSE. If paypal does not agree with your assessment
of the situation, you may be out the money and TSE would not be obligated in giving it back to paypal, and paypal has no legal obligation to repay you! Regardless of what the credit card company may have started. You basically signed away your right in these disputed matters. Otherwise paypal would be out allot money, and they are not in business to do that. They hate animal transactions for this very reason. Its possible that in the near future, they will avoid any live animal transactions because of these problems.
 
Gecko_Den said:
Lucille, would you agree that at a minimum, the public should have been made aware of the fact that Chris was no longer involved in the day to day operation of TSE? How many people made purchases based on the reputation that Chris built, and were totally unaware that he was ill and no longer running his business?

:
Click to expand...

Sam

I am in no way defending these poor business practices, and of COURSE this notification should have been made.
I have nothing at all against mentioning that Chris is ill, after all he said so himself. I DO oppose digging around in his, or anyone's, personal medical history, what would anyone gain by that?
TSE should make their bad deals good, or have action taken against them, the bottom line is that those wronged should be recompensed; but none of that requires medical details.
Those who go back on Fauna a while will recall intensely rude comments Chris threw my way at times.
My personal feelings about his actions toward me, though, have nothing to do with my position as a nurse and as a person of integrity: that while these business practices can be soundly condemned, and action ought to be swiftly taken by those who were wronged, the man is very ill and we are NOT entitled to those personal medical details.

I think the focus should be on helping those who got done wrong here, and getting their money back.
 
I hope I am wrong, but as objectively as I know how .......

The earlier lapses in customer service were one thing. Not excusable, but not a giant red flag either if that's all that was there. But you have now either been blocked, which would be the most likely scenario, or they just decided to shut down ... not likely, as there is still money to be made. Too many things which have come to light in this thread suggest more than just a temporary problem due to illness. The handling of some of the het deals, poor quality of what should be expensive animals which would rate whatever effort was necessary to maintain a thing of value (the het-pied DOA mentioned in an earlier post sticks with me), lack of cautionary concern in a few deals that did not go as planned, and now this, are indicative of what you would see in a less-than-honorable business. My instincts tell me that there are going to be problems with many of the hets. Why? Because the whole business of hets is based on honor, and where it is lacking, so are the hets. Right now, all arrows are pointing in the wrong direction. Like I said, I hope that I am wrong. But when things unravel so easily, it begins to look like it was all held together by tape and paperclips to begin with. :shrug01:
 
jerry the fact of the matter is TSE voided the "contract"(order) when they failed to ship in 1 to 3 business days like their TOS states.
 
No proven hets?

I can't believe that nobody has proven any of these hets out one way or another. In May of 2005 I spent some money with TSE and now I'm afraid it may not turn out the way I had hoped. I bought a trio of het pied and a trio of het albino. I did my homework on Chris and everything looked good. I found threads going back to 2003 and it all seemed positive so I was comfortable sending thousands of dollars to this "reputable" person. Some of the females were around 1300 or 1400 grams this year but I decided to hold them off for 1 more year. Hopefully this fall they will prove out and I'll be back here posting that they're the real deal. I just hope this wasn't the plan all along. Sorta disappear just before the hets are breedable. I'm in no way accusing Chris of this, it's just something I thought of and it would be nice to hear from someone who has bred some of his hets. As far as the medical issue is concerned, I really don't think anyone wants to pry into his business any more than they have to, I just think people want to know if they're being lied to about the whole thing. People have thousands of dollars spent with the guy and they're certainly entitled to some info. Anyway, hopefully we all got what we paid for and this will all blow over. -Chris
 
It does not matter

if TSE voided their own TOS. When TSE accepted paypal as their source for receiving funds, they also agreed to the terms of paypal as the final arbitrator in any disputed matter. Now as an example, I sent money to TSE through paypal. 3 months go by, and for whatever reason I file a complaint or attempt to get my money back through my credit card company. The charge back is not against TSE but paypal. Now you signed an agreement with paypal accepting their terms, so in the end your credit card company cannot give you back the money. Now how does this effect TSE. They have already been payed by paypal. Their may be no funds for any kind of reversal even though TSE did not live up to their obligation to the buyer! The devil is in the details. You have given away your rights in a dispute once you accept paypal into your agreement as middle man. Paypal has protected their own interest by making sure that you cannot charge back against the seller. (in this case TSE) . If you contact your bank, they will only have a record of you paying paypal and not TSE. I know it may sound a bit confusing, but thats the way it works.
 
KNOBTAIL said:
if TSE voided their own TOS. When TSE accepted paypal as their source for receiving funds, they also agreed to the terms of paypal as the final arbitrator in any disputed matter. Now as an example, I sent money to TSE through paypal. 3 months go by, and for whatever reason I file a complaint or attempt to get my money back through my credit card company. The charge back is not against TSE but paypal. Now you signed an agreement with paypal accepting their terms, so in the end your credit card company cannot give you back the money. Now how does this effect TSE. They have already been payed by paypal. Their may be no funds for any kind of reversal even though TSE did not live up to their obligation to the buyer! The devil is in the details. You have given away your rights in a dispute once you accept paypal into your agreement as middle man. Paypal has protected their own interest by making sure that you cannot charge back against the seller. (in this case TSE) . If you contact your bank, they will only have a record of you paying paypal and not TSE. I know it may sound a bit confusing, but thats the way it works.
Click to expand...

Jerry,
I am confused. I have had a deal go bad on Ebay, and Paypal charged back the vendor and put money into my account.
In addition, there are civil remedies.
Please be more specific, I do not understand what you are saying.
 
Lucille, my apologies for the confusion

I will try to be a bit more specific. If you are dealing with paypal in the form of a purchase (the buyer) and you pay paypal with your credit card on file, then you have given paypal the right to form their own investigation if their is a problem, without the benefit of the credit card company coming to your aid. This is part of the agreement with you and paypal. Let us assume for example your animals came in dead, and you contacted your credit card co. for a chargeback. The chargeback is listed as paypal and not the company that sent you the dead animals! So now you contact paypal to complain about receiving the dead animals. They will start an investigation and contact the seller. The seller may acknowledge or may not acknowledge the complaint. But in either case, the seller cannot use his TOS to override paypals investigation. When the seller signed up for paypal, he also agreed to the terms of paypal. So basically paypal has a candle buring from both ends to protects its own interests.

Now many dealers want paypal to mail the money (not deposit it into the sellers bank account ) they are entitled to . Once the shipper has the money, paypal really cannot do much to attempt to enforce the shipper to give the money back. If their are chronic complaints about the shipper, paypal will terminate their agreement. Their are cases where the shipper may acknowledge that they were at fault and the monies get reversed to to the buyer. This happens basically with drygoods not living animals. All I am saying is be very careful. Paypal can be good, but it can also backfire if something goes wrong and the monies are already in the shippers hands. Thats why paypal always attempts to verify their accounts. Which basically means that they are above board as a business. But even their you have to be careful. TSE is a perfect example. If they close shop , the buyers who paid in advance will have no avenue of redress other than court. Paypal cannot help them.
 
I see what you are saying.
Perhaps those people with doubts should ask for refunds sooner rather than later because Paypal does have some time limits. I don't know, what do you think, Jerry?
 
Lucille, I think that TSE is having more internal

problems than external ones. Everything will be based on whether the current employees stay or abandon ship. This is all to common in this business.

You are correct about paypal, the sooner you can provide a complaint the better off you are. But your only recourse is through paypal. I know for a fact that companies keep a minimum balance in their checking account just to insure that paypal cannot pull funds out incase their is a reversal or a claim filed where paypal tries to favor the buyer by attempting to retrieve the money through the sellers checking account. If the seller receives $500 into his account and only keeps $ 10.00 in their, how can paypal recoup the money to payback the buyer...........they cant! Its that simple. If the seller receives a check from paypal for $ 500., how is paypal going to get the money back ..........in this case , paypal cant. In both cases the loser is the buyer. That is what I am afraid of with TSE. The use of a delay such as the weather is a tactic that provides the seller with...........time! The longer the buyer waits, the less chance paypal has to try to collect the monies back. In the end the sellers just close shop. He looser..........the buyer, who paid in advance, in good faith, and has no recourse other than court.

Personally, and I dont know TSE or Chris, but I do know business ethics. If it were me, I would refund all monies that I received in advance, close the business until my health improves and save my good name for future dealings. Apparently Chris has other concerns in his life now, and he has apparently decided to leave whatever miseries fall onto TSE. But if I were one of the people who sent money in advance, I would attempt to put him into bankruptcy. You only need 3 creditors to start an action. That is the only solution to insuring some kind of a response...........when it pertains to his own pocketbook!!
 
Lucille I don't think anyone wants to know what Chris's Temperature is or if he's eating out of a tube ETC ETC. But many would have liked to have known he was sick and how sick(IE can't participate in his business) before they sent money to him. Would you have thought twice before buying from him if you knew he was gravely ill and wasn't involved in the business anymore ETC ETC ???

Just look at all guessing that is going on in this thread, will I get what I paid for? when will I get what I paid for? will they prove out? will they be healthy? Everyone who reads this thread and is waiting on animals from TSE probably has a sinking feeling that gets worse every day. While TSE keeps raking in the money, are they still having their sale on hets? Gee I'd feel real good if I bought one in Jan. and was still waiting to get it and saw that now if I had just waited I could get them way cheaper and wouldn't have had to wait for months to get it. But then I'd still be guessing.... Randy
 
Day 7, still waiting for TSE to reply. It doesn't look like they are going to honor their guarantee. Now it looks like they are bouncing my emails.
 
tejasranger said:
Day 7, still waiting for TSE to reply. It doesn't look like they are going to honor their guarantee. Now it looks like they are bouncing my emails.
Click to expand...

Robert:

You are in Texas, with the Texas Deceptive Trade Practices Act. You can get up to triple damages and attorney costs for trade practice violations. I cannot have any of y'all as clients because I do not have my license yet, but certainly there is no harm in pointing out the law for y'all to consider yourselves and Texas has a good strong consumer statute.
For y'all in other states, do a search for 'consumer statutes' and read the applicable law.
Small claims court here in Texas will heare cases where the damage goes up to $5000. Many other states are similar. There is a second step after getting the judgment to collect it. Is it a 100% guarantee? No. But it is better than waiting around and wringing your hands if these guys are not giving refunds, and the consumer statutes coupled with small claims are meant for the 'little guy' and often there is only a $25 fee to get your case heard.
Jerry mentioned bankruptcy actions, also.
I am hearing a lot of frustration from y'all and a lack of communication between TSE and its customers. Common sense says to me that with no refunds and no communication, it might be time to move onto other measures to assure that your money is not lost.
At this point, and this is my own personal feeling, I would not entertain a purchase from this company because of its lack of responsiveness to the needs of people who are already its customers.
 
tejasranger said:
Has anyone tried to email TSE today? I just had the two I sent yesterday returned as undeliverable. They were sent to [email protected] and [email protected], these were the only emails I had returned.
Hmmmmmm
Click to expand...

Bob, their address would be [email protected]. No "S" on the end of "exotic". I know this only because I did it myself.... :ack2: If you add the "S", it bounces back.
 
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