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Top Shelf Exotics (Inquiry)

One thing is for sure. TSE will be the most infamous of all time on the BOI in a very short time. With all the "BAD GUYS" that are named thoughout the BOI archives this will be something that will be remembered for a very very long time.



Top Shelf Exotics (Inquiry) ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page )
tejasranger 05-06-2006 11:03 AM
by shep151 1,039 replies 60,834 views Board of Inquiry™

-------------------------- ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page )
Lee Herps 10-21-2005 01:17 PM
by dutchoven 1,234 replies 63,417 views Board of Inquiry™
 
I'm curious

to know about how many people could have been affected. I'm new to the herp industry, but from following kingsnake ads have gotten the impression that while BP morphs sell, they don't sell like hotcakes and many ads are repeated. That is why when TSE told me that they were backed up, I didn't think it would take them that long to catch up. Is that a fair assumption?

It's sad how poorly this reflects on the industry. I had my first 3 clutches of pastel BPs last year and have just now produced albinos and 66%hets. I perceived that selling them one at a time would be a lot of hassle so I've been selling wholesale to a pet store. When I first started, I only purchased from big, reputable breeders, but then had good experiences with small breeders with excellent BOI ratings. This shakes my confidence a bit since Chris had a great track record before all this happened. If I'm not comfortable buying from people I don't know, how can I expect others to be comfortable with me in the future?

I hope that all this attention doesn't give the authorities the impetus to highly regulate the herp trade. Outstanding forums like this can really help to keep this industry respectable.

Maki Goskowicz
 
Here is the upside and the downside to some of the

questions. It is true that your liability is limited through a corp. Because, as an employee, you can walk away from the corp. and the corp. would become defunct. (with one exception) Here is the secret. You can start bankruptcy proceedings against the corp with 3 creditors, and if Chris is an officer of the corp. (which he would be) then their may be some personal liabilities involved. But he would have some protection. Businessses do this and its common to protect personal assets, (home, car, boat, etc.) from being confiscated as part of the business. Its legal also. The object is to claim some illegality that the corp was conducting, then thats an entirely different matter, (and I believe that where the state comes into the picture. ) not only for tax violations, but fraud, and a whole host of other violations that can be levied against the corp. and Chris.

The downside to Chris's problems are this: the govt does not have to pursue Chris. It has all the time in the world. It would only gather information, look for tax violations and start some kind of legal or criminal procedures depending on what they find. Unfortunately, they are the 1st creditors on the list. Their authority supercedes everyone else including the banks. So, Chris would never be able to open a bank account under his name, never apply for any credit , anywhere, and would always be liable for an immediate seizure once they locate any funds. Not an envious position to be in.

If my intuitions are correct, from my own dealings when I was with the NYCPD, Chris's problems can be so overwhelming that depending on how deep this fraud goes, he can have some serious jail time to look forward to.
It all depends on how many people come forward, how much money is involved and the fervor of the complainants. We shall see!!!!
 
So here we have Maki who has been waiting since January for a pair of het clowns with no word on them. It doesn't sound as if any complaints or threatening letters were made to TSE until relatively recently (credit card dispute) so what happenned to the theory about being bumped to the bottom of the list only after complaining? Sounds to me like Maki should have been at the top but still no animals? I think we all know that nobody is going to receive anything here whether it be money, animals, or even a reach around.
Cathy, I'm not surprised Chris confirmed the het clowns for sale at auction came from him. Did he make reference to TSE's disclaimer in their TOS that stated they would not stand behind hets past the original purchaser? Considering you were waiting for het animals from him at the time (and still are) I would think he didn't exactly make light of the fact, correct?
 
Cat_72 said:
Hm......so basically, if such is the case, since he's been "reported", it's going to now be that much more impossible to get any money he owes the rest of us, I would assume.
Click to expand...

Cathy you are assuming that there is a possibility of getting any money back from TSE to begin with. Based on the few responses from Chris, along with the additional info that has been brought out on this thread, it is highly unlikely that anyone will get refunds, regardless of any problems that would arise for TSE from being reported. In fact he was probably counting on most people NOT reporting him in the hopes that they would think it would prevent him from being able to issue a refund. Sounds like more stall tactics to me...
 
Hey Folks,
While being incorporated will protect a business that plays by the rules, being the legal statutes, their TOS so long as the TOS are in line with statutes (such as the UCC), and their own Operating Agreement, all things must be in order. Without going into specific detail of all the possible claims against Chris, civil and criminal, if he wasn't in strict accordance with all of the applicable rules contained in these documents and statutes etc.,, then he will not be able to hide behing any corporate protection, and could be held personally and criminally liable where applicable, to include going after his assets. Agreed, incorporation etc does afford some protections, but usually they are lost if anything is not done by the book. Businesses can legitimately fail and go out of business owing a lot of money, the key word being "legitimate". But if Chris broke the rules, he has made it possible for what is known as "piercing the corporate veil". If he has committed one notable violation, and it can be documented and then proven in a civil suit, then he loses all corporate protections for all claims. I mentioned this a few hundred posts ago, and realize much is buried in the volume here. It is also a main reason why the claimants should pool some money to get $300-500 worth of legal advice and some analysis, as this is exactly what an attorney will be looking for. BTW, in the ongoing Enron trial, one of the main issues is if Lay and others committed a crime, broke the rules, etc, as all of their assets are then fair game.
 
One other simple but important distinction. Chris would not only be an employee of the company, but more importantly, an officer of the company, regardless of what label he gave himself. In a failed company, employees usually bear no civil obligations unless it can be shown that they committed a criminal act. Officers, on the other hand, are considered responsible for all decisions, whether they claim ignorance or not, as they are held to a much higher level of responsibility. One reason they get paid the big bucks for it!
 
How did Chris's Taxes get into this?? Guys we want people to come forward that have been ripped off by Chris and scarring them isn't going to do that. We've read into a whole lot of this and surmised a whole lot more.We now have the Feds hounding Chris to the ends of the earth!! Who knows what money if any these people will recover, Lets not get to carried away here and try to stay in the same ballpark as the facts. I can see in some responses here already the OH I wish we hadn't come here, now I'll never get anything back. Lets try not to do more harm than good to those Chris ripped off. Randy
 
Is there anyone around that can visit Chris? I am too far away to do that. Maybe even go see if someone can lend him a hand with shipping out orders. Even if it takes a day to visit, hop in the car and go see what is going on. Chris and those waiting for animals need more help from those near him then all the complaining that is going on here.
 
Greg Riso said:
So here we have Maki who has been waiting since January for a pair of het clowns with no word on them. It doesn't sound as if any complaints or threatening letters were made to TSE until relatively recently (credit card dispute) so what happenned to the theory about being bumped to the bottom of the list only after complaining? Sounds to me like Maki should have been at the top but still no animals? I think we all know that nobody is going to receive anything here whether it be money, animals, or even a reach around.
Cathy, I'm not surprised Chris confirmed the het clowns for sale at auction came from him. Did he make reference to TSE's disclaimer in their TOS that stated they would not stand behind hets past the original purchaser? Considering you were waiting for het animals from him at the time (and still are) I would think he didn't exactly make light of the fact, correct?
Click to expand...

Greg, this was months before I made the purchase I am currently dealing with. He had nothing to gain from making that statement, and the statement on the bottom of his paperwork says that he will not guarantee them unless he is notified of and/or mediates the sale. And in this case he had said he WOULD. WHether it's worth the powder it would take to blow it to heck, who knows. But I thought perhaps it was a small piece of hope for those of us who already have TSE hets in our possession.

I'm sorry for trying to come up with one piece of positivity in this whole freaking mess. :shrug01:
 
It was a supposed thermostat failure that killed the animals Jermey is talking about. I offered to replace the themrostat, and asked him to send it back to me so I could take a look at it, he refused.. Now if I sold you a tstat that killed 50k worth of animals(thats the amount he told me) wouldent you at least ask for the warrenty to be honered with the manufacture, and they would have. I just wanted the stat here so I could pook around in it to see where the failure cam from.. SEEMS NOW THERE WAS NO FAILURE, OR BALLS KILLED!!! I keep everything so here is a transscript of the chat room that night :reddevil:
 

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Randy, their will be no recovery of monies due! People who end up in Chris's circumstance, are no longer interested, nor in a position to make due their obligation. Whatever funds they have, they will hold onto. What Chris originally failed to realize was that he thought he could just emancipate himself from this whole liablity issue by claiming his illness, but even that has caught up to him. In the end, no one will receive anything, because their are no assets, and even if their were, they probably have moved into someone elses tanks.
 
Only 50k? I heard over 100k worth of animals. Hmmm, im quickly losing all respect for Chris also... Yes i was in chat when the supposed fire happened. I thought it was more along the lines of August though, not 100% sure but maybe even september.
 
As for assets, if Chris owned a condo, etc, to include his "wife's" whatever, as he used that as a delivery point for his business (and likely much more), then there may still be blood in that turnip. Very easy for an attorney to find out.

A touch more on corporations. An actual crime is not at all necessary to go after the officers personally. Almost always, you can just follow the money, and compare it to the Operating Agreement of the company. Salaries and compensation must be well spelled out. In the case of small companies, a greedy officer will always compensate themselves not in accordance with the Operating Agreement, but more as if it were a sole proprietorship. So, in the eyes of the law, if the officers of the company did not respect the organization of the corporation, then neither will the courts. Poof, all protections are gone !
 
Michael,

It seems that the help with shipping is a non-issue. We asked Chris to post the last 10 FedEx tracking numbers he had shipped and "nada". Notice that we didn't even asked for the number he said FedEx will refuse to pick up (20 per day), we just asked for the last 10 (which could've meant even a week worth of packages). Not a one. It thus seems Pat and Glen ;) have no animals to ship so they need very little help.

Regards,
 
One thing is for sure. TSE will be the most infamous of all time on the BOI in a very short time. With all the "BAD GUYS" that are named thoughout the BOI archives this will be something that will be remembered for a very very long time.
Click to expand...

Nicholas,

No doubt about it. Some of the most infamous as you mention, were called out because of sending sick animals, the wrong sex, and animals where genetic claims did not match. There were few instances where those repeat offenders were called out because they massively pocketed money and did not ship like in the case at hand. The one that comes to mind is CMG, now long time disappeared from the herp scene. He thought he could outsmart everyone that was the beginning of the end for him; that and of course selling a gravid hetero for pied with ticks and then not wanting her returned…

Regards.

It's even worse.
 
If not already mentioned, there are members here who have not posted who volunteered their shipping accounts to have what is owed to them shipped by TSe at no expense to TSE except the box, some time, and of course, the product that was paid for. To no one's surprise, nothing was shipped, nor was the offer acknowledged.

To those of you with "hets" from Chris. I know you are hoping for the best. For what are looking much like obvious reasons, you also need to expect the worst. I would urge some of you to join the legal effort now, and hedge your bets if possible. Whoever wants to take the bull by the horn should establish a fund to talk to a local business attorney to get advice and pointers. That would be $200-$400. From there, if the advice is to proceed further, you would get a referral to a business attorney in Chris's locale, make a phone call, and spend another $300-500 for him to at least investigate assets, and then advise if its worth pursuing. Probably looking at $50 - $100 per head for those who might see it as a worthwile investment.

If you need a nudge, one thing seems enormously true. When Chris "sold" you the hets, but then waited months to ship, the most likely scenario was not the welfare of the animals, but that he did not have the animals, and his ponzi scheme meant that he needed more money coming in to acquire some, while still enjoying his lifestyle. Your order was on a back burner. How much faith do you have that, given that scenario, he spent the money necessary to get you hets? He had already misrepresented aspects of the sale to you, from the very beginning. Hedge your bets.
 
Whatever happened to escrow?

When you are selling something, the money is not yours until its warranty is up, meaning there's no chance you will have to provide a refund. If it's like $10, then that's no big deal, anyone can come up with a few dollars. But when it's any siginificant amount, it is entirely irresponsible to not keep the money in holding until the chance of having to refund is out of the picture.

All it takes is something simple like a heater malfunction, a fire, some virus to come through and wipe out a bunch of animals... there are a zillion scenarios where thousands of dollars worth of animals can disappear in a hearbeat. It's just ridiculous that someone would sell stuff months in advance of when they knew they would be able to ship, and didn't bother to hold the money while they were still holding onto living creatures that could die any second.
 
When you are selling something, the money is not yours until its warranty is up, meaning there's no chance you will have to provide a refund. If it's like $10, then that's no big deal, anyone can come up with a few dollars. But when it's any siginificant amount, it is entirely irresponsible to not keep the money in holding until the chance of having to refund is out of the picture.
Click to expand...

Exactly Charles! It’s “business 101”. In simple terms “don’t count the chicks before they hatch” (substitute chicks by balls) or the other version: “don’t spend the money before you own it” (e.g. before your buyer receives and is satisfied with your merchandise). Those are the axioms that will keep you out of trouble, unless of course you have a generous bank account in which to fall back in case something happens. Ole’ Murphy doesn’t sleep or go on vacation like we do…he works 24/7…and sometimes it seems that even more.

Regards.
 
Many business people carry business liability insurance in order to avoid disasters like a fire. Ordinarily, the value of pets and so on is not covered by standard homeowner's insurance, but many people have custom insurance plans tailored to their own business needs.

Is that common or done at all in the reptile biz? Do any of the big name reptile guys carry insurance to fall back on in case of disasters like equipment malfunction? I don't know, it would be interesting to find out.
 
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