Top Shelf Exotics (Inquiry)

[Cat_72]

Did I miss the post where it was proven that his Hets were fakes? Or are we speaking hypothetically? I skipped the last 10 pages or so since the "view first unread" button hasn't worked since the poll was added and work caused me to fall behind on the reading. The last I saw no one had come forward with any eggs that had hatched yet, and even then I think proving them fake will take several breeding seasons.

No, it has not been proven either way.....that is why I say IF they prove to be het for nothing.

 

[NorthamExotics]

Sam..

..people are making the logical inference that since Chris Johnson/TSE's credibility and ethics have come into question as a result of shipping sick animals and taking money without shipping anything at all, he could have been perpetrating fraud all along buy selling normals as hets.

No one has stated proof either way at this point but those of us who are stuck waiting have banded together in order to either pursue this issue as proof warrants or lets the courts act to demand Chris provide proof of parentage somehow.

Hope this lends clarity...

-Jason

 

[viridisnakes]

Are the hets real?

Do the math. Here is the email to me on Jan 15th 2006 I purchased the last female on Jan 17th. Another indivdual involved in the mess (Maki) bought the last female two days later. I did clarify with them I DID IN FACT purchase the last het female. I wonder who was going to get the fake one. Or is the more likely scenerio is that everything or 99% of them are fake.

Do you really believe he bred and then shipped 43 g CBB animals that were worth $1000s each to Northom(sp?), only to ship him more $1000 CBB het babies with no necropsy, no due diligence on the death. They were way to eager to get him new ones. He also lost another. What are the chances that these were bred by TSE. The only likely scenerio there is when you are paying $8 for WC baby and selling for $1000 it is not a nig deal to send another out ASAP. If you are still wondering if most of what TSE shipped out was an actual het then reread this post a few times.

From : Top Shelf Exotics <[email protected]>
Sent : Sunday, January 15, 2006 9:04 PM
To :
Subject : RE: Message about: BP SPECIALS - HET ALBINO PAIRS $599, HET CLOWN PAIRS $1900. MUCH MORE! FREE SHIPPING

| | | Inbox


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Attachment : image001.jpg (< 0.01 MB), image002.jpg (0.01 MB)

One unrelated pair remain as of this message, if they are still available come Wednesday we will photograph them for you. I highly doubt they will still be here however, they've sold rather quickly at our advertised pricing. The pair may not sell together but I am sure the female will sell judging by recent correspondence with interested parties. They are in excess of 100g, feeding thawed from tongs. All animals are accompanied by photographic documentation stating genetics/guarantee as specified in our advertisement(s)



Thank you for contacting Top Shelf Exotics, Good day.



Sales Department

I think it would be interesting experiment if others bought the LAST het.
Post your purchase date and email from TSE stating such. I am sure there are more than my fraud instances invloved. I know this same situation was developing on the KS thread before it was deleted. It is this type of info that is going to help any legal fraud case for people who recieved snakes.

Take care,
Chris Rouille
Tucson, AZ

 

[viridisnakes]

I forgot to mention, I am still waiting for that promised photographs from above.

Chris Rouille

 

[NorthamExotics]

Honestly...

Chris, to call a spade a spade, I wholeheartedly agree with you BUT until I have proof in my hands no one outside of those of us posting here care. No authorities will or even can do anything until we can prove we were scammed. Yes, the deal started to smell fishy for me from the moment those sickly little snakes arrived but he had my money at that point and I had a glimmer of hope that the deal was still legit.

In my heart of hearts I'm sure we were scammed.

-Jason Northam

 

[Serpwidgets]

How many individual snakes are going to be test-bred? (2006? 2007?) If you're only talking about a few clutches then it might take more than one season to prove out normals as such. But a large sample, even if only some of them are fake hets, should produce good evidence of a trend.

 

[Cat_72]

How many individual snakes are going to be test-bred? (2006? 2007?) If you're only talking about a few clutches then it might take more than one season to prove out normals as such. But a large sample, even if only some of them are fake hets, should produce good evidence of a trend.

From what I have seen, there is Zach's pied hets with eggs this year, but many more that will be of breeding size for next year. Mine will be breeding this next year.....

 

[viridisnakes]

Jason

I understand. It is just that your situation REALLY stands out to me as to how TSE was operating. Especially since they go through all the BS about the animals welfare coming first. A short duration 40 F temps while shipping to you would not kill a BP, unless it was already severely in trouble, like being a poorly cared for import.

I understand your feeling about them having your money and feeling helpless. I felt the same way. Especially when emails are far and in between and when they finally come they are so RUDE and have not answered one question.

Good luck Jason.

Chris Rouille

 

[Chameleon Company]

A few of you keep throwing around that word "proof". This has been discussed quite a bit earlier in the thread, but you do not need "proof" in a civil pursuit. If the first 2-3 owners of Chris's hets do not get any visuals, combined with Chris's other deceptive and possibly fraudulent practices, any owner of a het from Chris would have solid grounds to join the civil suit seeking a return of product and full refund. It is possible that after just one hatch of a clutch with no visuals that all het owners could join the suit, compelling Chris to produce evidence that he bred true hets lest a judge or jury grant a refund to those seeking one.

 

[NorthamExotics]

Jim... I understand your point from a civil liability standpoint. As far as I know there is only one TSE het to het clutch incubating right now but I'm not aware of anything else for this year. I bought various het males to make 50%ers to breed back so my case is worst case scenario among people who have received animals. I will likely now buy het females from someone verifiable now and save myself a year (at minimum). Even if the TSE hets don't prove out I'll end up with clutches of 50%ers.

-Jason Northam

 

[KNOBTAIL]

absolutely, JIM, you

are 100% correct, and if you check my earlier post, you will see that I had posted the same sentiments. You just need a preponderance amount of evidence. Basically, if he lied about this then he lied about everything.

Also with regard to my thinking about passing along a snake to an unsuspecting buyer as "perpetuating a fraud", people will do it just to get their original investment back and basically plead innocent. Their are people who are willing to take a loss, and then their are those who will not, or are so burnt up over the situation that they will try to unload their (so called het) just to get back their funds and go elsewhere.

I think in the end because of the publicity, people will shy away from any snake that even remotely related to Chris/TSE even if the snake prooved out to be true! Why take the risk. Its easier not to buy then guess!!!!

 

[Serpwidgets]

A few of you keep throwing around that word "proof". This has been discussed quite a bit earlier in the thread, but you do not need "proof" in a civil pursuit. If the first 2-3 owners of Chris's hets do not get any visuals, combined with Chris's other deceptive and possibly fraudulent practices, any owner of a het from Chris would have solid grounds to join the civil suit seeking a return of product and full refund. It is possible that after just one hatch of a clutch with no visuals that all het owners could join the suit, compelling Chris to produce evidence that he bred true hets lest a judge or jury grant a refund to those seeking one.

This is true, but I think even if some people were scammed that some of them still might be actual hets. Putting some actual hets into the mix, or just selling 50/66% hets as 100%, would significantly extend the lifetime of such a scam, especially if you make sure the more reputable buyers are the ones who receive the real hets. (Then when others come forward saying theirs didn't produce, the bigger names would say "mine did, so you just got unlucky...")

If that's the case, knowing how likely your are to be holding actual hets might prove valuable in itself. It would help those with "possibly fake hets" decide what to do with them (keep them and test them, sell them as normals, etc.) and/or whether to buy hets from someone else, too.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Charles, I hate to say it, but if Chris did have intent to defraud with hets, but was clever enough to send 25-50% of his het orders as actual hets, and then fill in the rest with normals, it makes things very tough for those still scammed. However, my common sense tells me that if he was scamming, then he ripped off everybody. For all those with hets, I have to affirm my hope that they start proving out positive. Like many here, my instincts tell me that folks have been had, but wouldn't I love to be wrong.

 

[weostan]

Refund from TSE

Chris Johnson, Paypal ruled in my favor on may 4th but said the was no money to refund. Sure it may not be an over night fix, but how long should it take. You should have some idea. Yet you don't know why anyone would doubt your hets. This whole situation is just ridiculous.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Robert,

before I forget, please when an attorney has been selected, kindly put his name and address, phone #, etc. on this site for those who may want to contribute directly to the attorney or provide information that may be of in value in any civil or criminal case regarding this matter.tjat should not be made public.

This thread is winding down, and its been by far the largest posting in the history of the BOI. Hopefully for those who think their future holds a bountiful amount of money by attempting to scam this community, may think twice before finding themselves in more problems than they bargained for.

Their is no doubt in my mind that Chris is an intelligent person, has an excellent command of the english language and can be very convincing in an argument. But if it is of any consolation, as smart as he was in taking other peoples monies, he left a trail that will eventually lead back to haunt him for the rest of his life. And in this case, if the clamor is loud enough, it can be called jail time as his future home.

 

[Lucille]

A few of you keep throwing around that word "proof". This has been discussed quite a bit earlier in the thread, but you do not need "proof" in a civil pursuit. .

Well, that is actually not correct. You just need a different standard, a more-likely-than-not standard rather than the criminal beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt standard.
You cannot win a case on conjecture. You have to have a valid complaint.
Certainly, people who have not received their snakes at all, or received sick ones, DO seem to have a valid complaint.
But you cannot jump the gun on the hets, some have to be bred. And if some of those hets prove out, even just a couple, it's going to be a hard case to win.
With bunches of hets in question, there is no way that one breeding is going to provide the kind of information needed to show that it is more likely than not that ALL the hets had been misrepresented. The more breedings, the more evidence, the more of a case (or not) one has.

I know many of you have heard that cases can go on for a long time and I think what we see here is much more likely to be resolved one way or the other next year when there are more breedings.
I do think that those reading this thread should not have a 'reckless disregard for the truth' and misrepresent what they have to someone else if they have doubts themselves.

 

[Lucille]

Ooops meant to say beyond a reasonable doubt above....it's been a long week

 

[Chameleon Company]

Lucille,

I have said "you do not need proof", as people had been applying a criminal standard to a civil issue. Then you say

Well, that is actually not correct. You just need a different standard, a more-likely-than-not standard rather than the criminal beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt standard

.

Isn't a "different standard, a more likely than not standard" completely consistent with what I said? I appreciate your taking the time for a further explanation, and to add your take on clarification, it is always welcome. But within the context that I used it, it is correct, and concured with by others who also have a good working knowledge of the law. It has also been discussed at length throughout the thread.

 

[Lucille]

I have said "you do not need proof", as people had been applying a criminal standard to a civil issue.

Isn't a "different standard, a more likely than not standard" completely consistent with what I said? :

No. There are 3 general standards of proof, all 3 require some proof. They simply require different levels of permissible doubt.
So if you are saying 'you do not need proof' some people may actually think that 'you do not need proof' instead of realizing that what you are saying is that proof in criminal and civil proceedings differ.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Lucille. This very point has been discussed over and over again in this thread. The primary distinction throughout has been the level of "proof" required for a criminal conviction vs. the much lower preponderance of the evidence for a civil case. If you would care to get into a dissertation of the "3 levels of proof" then knock yourself out, but virtually every entity in this thread either understands the concepts here, or has had a chance to have it explained in triplicate. As I said earlier, anytime you care to provide more info or clarification to help an understnding along, if you think it needs it, no one will take issue with you. But if you want to make an issue of parsing the words of others and labeling them as incorrect, which you have here, it comes across as a bit too much "know it all", when at best you are just lending opinions where there was no substantive disagreement. Its splitting hairs that have already been combed many times over. It is clear to all here that the level of "proof", as it relates to criminal vs. civil, are two different things. Specifically, with regard to a pair of hets, you cannot prove for a fact that they are not hets if bred together no matter how many times it is done. You can show that results indicate it unlikely they are hets to a standard which would be acceptable in a civil case without ever "proving" they were not, and against Chris, the bar may be even lower based upon his actions with defrauding others and being unable to provide any "proof" that he could have bred hets. That is exactly the issue to which Jerry and I were speaking. There is a big difference between wanting to "expand on", "add to", or "clarify" vs. saying something or someone is "incorrect". You say "to-may-to", I say "to-mah-to". Both are correct.