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Top Shelf Exotics (Inquiry)

scalesnstuff said:
Down here we have what's called a green sheet. It has the info for anyone that is building a house, selling a house, married, divorced, arrested, bankruptcy, etc. It is biweekly I think. If any one lves in the same county as Chris these are usually easy to get a hold of.
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From the courthouse or from tax accessors or county records???
 
Green Sheet

We get ours from the courthouse. It's $100.00 dollars a year. Being a small town our courthouse handles alot of different things other than court precedings.
 
Jerry, I do not know the specifics, or how much it varies from state to state.

Knobtail writes:
Once a supboena is issued to Chris, by mail or served in person, it is at that point that Chris would have his attorney advise those representing the plaintiff, that Chris has been granted protection under the umbrella of the courts. Nothing further will commence after that!
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My recollection tells me that if Chris files for bankruptcy, he must also include a list of all creditors and amounts, and that once he has filed, his attorney (or a representative of the court) sends out notice to all these creditors, in essance "calling off the dogs". This would include all mail and phone calls etc, that would certainly occur prior to anyone seeking a subpoena. My point being that the the first notice that a creditor receives of bankruptcy protection is not when they go to file against a given entity, or "the issuance of a subpoena" at the instigation of the creditor, which would be added (and useless) expense on the part of the creditor. I believe that Chris has a legal obligaton to list every debt, and cannot choose to exclude any (maybe he owes money to a friend that he wants to repay), but rather can file to have some debts reinstated, pending court review, and a new arrangement with the creditor.
 
From experience

When I did mine some 10 years ago. Letters were sent out to everyone that I owed money too. I did a 13, so that means that I was going to pay back my debt. When time came for the hearing if no one showed up to represent any entity that I owed money to, then court decided how it would be handled. I was going through a divorce (the reason I filed in the first place). And there was one creditor that my ex-wife was supposed to pay which she failed to do. They had to wait for a couple of years before they could sue me. Everything was rearranged to include them in.

Now, there was a kid that was in my highschool that was selling pirated software online. He was caught and was sued by Microsoft, Adobe and another company (I can't remeber the name). Once all the lawsuits were in he filed bankruptcy and shaved over a million off the money owed to the companies that sued him.

The bankruptcy will protect him for a couple of years. Anything that is not presented during the bankruptcy will have to wait. If he does file then only a portion of the money owed will ever be seen.

Chapter 7 is pretty much saying I can not pay. Then things are taken to repay the debts. Depending on the state, you can lose your house, car and anything of value. Anything that you financed and owe money still can be taken too, but that depends on the creditor. When done you do not owe anything.

Chapter 13 you pay some back. Secured loans are payed back at 100%, if do not then they take it. Unsecured loans are 10%. Any money owed to private individuals are up to the individual (or attorney) and the filers lawyer and court. You can get back 100% if arranged but most of the time it is settled at a percentage.
 
JIM, I wish it did work that way, but it does not.

If Chris has council, you can bet that he also has a list of creditors. Maybe not a complete one , but a list nevertheless. Their are always add ons. Not all creditor information is available when fileing. But you are correct in that as many creditors can be listed, are usually done prior to fileing. Regardless ,it is for that reason why the monetary amount comes into the picture!

It does not matter if you have 3 creditors or 300. What does matter is the total amount of the indebterness. Anything over a set amount would have to go to federal court as opposed to state court.

Normally, $ 150,000 or above puts it into a different status. I dont believe that Chris's shanangins will amount anywhere near that amount.

With regard to which comes first, the chicken or the egg, or who files first, etc. It becomes mute once protection is afforded. I was directly involved in a case that had at least 200 creditors and the attorney representing the debtor waited until the last minute to inform the audience that his client had already filed for bankruptcy protection. Thats why people hate attorney's


I dont know how Chris will handle these legal issues, but it just seems to make sense to me that if this was planned as well as a thought out method, he already has hidden whatever assests he may have, and the herp community may be dealing with an empty shell. I am afraid thats what this will lead to.
 
Bert,

In Fl. they cannot take your home either in 13 or 7. Most people here file for 7. It eliminates and forgives all loans, judgements, or any potential lawsuits. But you are correct, different states have different approaches.

Now with the new law in effect, credit cards are no longer dischargable as well as other bank related loans (thank you George Bush). If its secured, their are no ways to unsecure it! If it is unsecured, then some payment schedule is provided by the trustee. In either scenerio, some form of payment becomes necessary. But the Herp people are at the mercy of the courts and play no priority in the scheme of things.

You are absolutely correct about creditors NOT showing up at proceedings. Its to time consuming, and they have already written off the loan as lost. Even with the new law, they can only expect maybe 10% of their monies. Their are no debtor prisons in the USA anymore! Unless you steal!
 
Jerry,
I cannot speak to whatever timelines were involved in the personal situation which you cited, which sounded like a much larger situation than Chris is involved with. I also make no claim that creditors will be notified promptly by the courts that there is a pending bankruptcy. So, I am not sure what you are saying "does not work that way"? My point was that the notification process is not dependent on the plaintiff filing a subpoena, which was what I thought you had stated. There is no doubt that if a subpoena had been issued to Chris, and he had filed for bankruptcy protection, that his attorney (or Chris) would immediately provide the filing info. But prior to that, it is likely that the creditor would have been notified, as they eventually must be notified. It is also very possible for the plaintiff's attorney to find out if Chris has filed prior to making a civil complaint, having a subpoena issued, etc., and would be very prudent for any attorney to do. As pointed out by another, Chris was not listed as having filed bankruptcy yet in the NY data-base, which could admittedly be very slow.
 
Speaking of timelines... Looking back at the timeline of Top Shelf Exotics isn't to reassuring. 3 years of buisness and look at the quality of animals. He must have taken some loan. Just another point I wish to arise as a part of "Buyer Beware!!" He's only been aroud for three years and look at the escalation of the overall quality of animals. It's something I would have never thought about looking into till now. To think not one major reputable has come foward to emancipate just where all these extremely high end hets are coming from? Any one talk to Alex Hue yet??
 
Jim, I dont know about

the length of time before it gets into a data base. NYS is a bit tough for backlogs. But regardless. I think the course of action would be for Chris's attorney to see what obstacles will be present before a decision is made to file. Sometimes these lawsuits get so overwhelming , not alternative is possible but some relief in the form of protection.

We will have to wait and see how this attorney, whoever he is , proceeds. I am sure it will be interesting. But its also possible that independent suits may already be in the pipeline from other creditors in other states.

Does anyone know if the these alleged employees of Chris have last names or is this part of his imaginary roles?
 
Ian,
Do not expect anyone to come forward, for two main reasons, which have pretty much already been talked about many times over:

1) The concept of any reputable breeder using Chris to front their animals is impractical. I can envision very few even remotely positive reasons why someone would do this, and the negative incentives far outweigh the positives.

2) Anyone who was selling lesser balls to Chris, or anything for that matter, would be very ill-advised to come here and acknowledge such. It won't score them any points for honesty that would overcome the cloud of dishonesty attached to Chris.

Here's an angle that hasn't been mentioned in the thread, and is sound reason to look at a criminal prosecution. If this ever becomes a criminal investigation, all of Chris's communications will be subpoenaed, for whether he has deleted them or not, they still exist. What if Chris had someone who may qualify as a co-conspirator in providing these animals, who knew of the scam (if it proves to be one)? The relationship, and possibly incriminating communications, could be the kiss of death. Let your mind wander, but what if Chris's arrangements with his suppliers soured? You are correct in that the silence is deafening!
 
Jim, if it ever came to that

then the D.A. would have some leverage for a very nice case of fraud against Chris. I would really hope that no one was stupid enough to be that complicit with Chris but then again, one never knows. When it comes to money, anything is possible.
 
Come to think of it, there were two pictures posted earlier of normal balls sold to Chris, and I thank that preson for coming forward. It would be relatively easy if a criminal investigation were to occur to find the short list of people they could have been sold to, since most if not all of Chris's sales were internet. With the picture evidence, if one or both were sold as hets, then that trumps any waiting for a genetic proving-out.
 
I would really hope that no one was stupid enough to be that complicit with Chris but then again, one never knows.
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It would seem to me that if someone was supplying Chris with a good number of normals and then seeing his ads all over for hets, they may/should have been able to put 2 and 2 together. If they did nothing more than not question it, then there would be some here that would come down pretty hard on them.
I can't see any reason why anyone that actually sold hets to Chris wouldn't come forward.
 
Just a little fun speculation Ken,

I can't see any reason why anyone that actually sold hets to Chris wouldn't come forward.
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The only semi-legitimate reasons that I could come up with why someone with valid hets would sell via Chris (and forego the additional profit that they could have by selling themselves) would be that the breeder entity would have reason to want to lay low. In its simplest form, to hide income or assets from a spouse. In its more serious form, so as to hide themselves or assets from the law. I would nominate these most likely reasons to sell through Chris ("most" likely, but not likely) as reasons not to come forward. Once again, we pretty much end up with no good reason for anyone to sell true hets through Chris.
 
I'd posted this earlier but it may have gotten lost in all the other replys - Chris has been selling normals and CH lots for the past couple of years also - so I don't think it will make a difference if you find someone that has been selling him normal lots - they could have just as easily been sold as normals as well as "hets" - I don't think it will come to anything conclusive.
 
Maybe find someone to host all the pics on a web site of peoples snakes (hets) they got from Chris and hope someone can verify atleast some of them were sold as normals. That is if who ever sold them to Chris kept pictures for records like Steve (serpents den) did. I am still waiting to see if someone recognizes those two snakes as hets that were sold to them as hets.
Also, how much are blood tests? If they alll came from one collection as he claims at TSE should matching up the blood tests be a fairly simple thing, then again the blood test might turn out to be expensive.
 
I have a question. Why would the Cheektowaga Police Dept be so reluctant to take a criminal complaint from someone? They referred me to the FBI, and someone else to the NY State Attorney General. A crime has been commited, I understand that the Erie County DA might decide not to file after the evidence has been gathered. But I was shocked that the PD would try and sway people from filing a complaint, by saying that they don't like to get involved because people from out of state don't usually show up for court. again I can see that being a call the DA might make but not the PD. Also wouldn't the cost of travel would be absorbed by the DA's office if you were called to testify. In a criminal trial isn't the case presented before the judge as people v Chris Johnson? I half way expected the officer to identify himself as Deputy Fife. What am I missing? If I ever get a wild hair to rob a Dunkin Donuts, I'll be doing it in Cheektowaga, NY
 
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