TailsWithScales
Creator of shenanigans
I know this is a bit of an odd question but has any of this been reported to Kingsnake??? I just saw ads on there last night from Touch of Crap. So there's a good chance he's trying to still sell stuff.
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Bad Guy Touch of Class Reptiles
- Thread starter Olexian Pro
- Start date
MikeCurtin
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My statement was more to the effect that he did his best to help get Kelvin to rectify this situation, and has appeared genuine insofar as his actions here. I think you all know that I completely support holding one's feet to the fire (and will do so if Alex's words here do not match his actions), but in this case, I don't feel that continuing to take jabs at the one person who has the best chance at helping this situation is helpful.
I disagree that I took any jabs. What I did was remind him that his affiliation with Touch of Class Reptiles is still there. I won't take away that he has tried to make things right, but the reality is that if he gets paid by Kelvin...he is part holder of Jason's money, as he was paid to pack and ship the snakes. I hate to put the weights back on an 18 year old kid, but Soto isn't reading this, and likely can't.
I think Alex knows I'm in his corner here, but in case you have not been able to tell from my posts...the moral of the story is, "there's no such thing as a free lunch : )"
I think Alex knows I'm in his corner here, but in case you have not been able to tell from my posts...the moral of the story is, "there's no such thing as a free lunch : )"
HerpsinIN
New member
I have been following this whole thread. I do have to agree that 51 hrs after receiving the snakes is not "immediately" after receiving them. The sellers term does not say "At your earliest convenience". Even if you were to send out a quick simple email stating that you received the snakes, but they were unhealthy, dieing, etc and you didnt have time to go into much depth at this time due to being on call, etc. Or even had someone else email them for you.
Having said that, I do think it is a shame that the seller still wont take care of their mistake. Hope it all turns out in favor of the OP. I will be staying far away from Touch of Class Reptiles!
Well, this is what the Law.com dictionary has to say.
immediately
adv. 1) at once. 2) in orders of the court or in contracts it means "as soon as can be done" without excuse.
So the argument would be if the OP did this "as soon as could be done," or if that was an "excuse." My interpretation from what I have heard is that the OP is extremely dedicated to his schooling and profession, and the lives of his patients do indeed come first. So it was indeed done "as soon as can be done." Not everyone can play the text and drive game.
I am sure having someone else email was not in the order of business when there are more critical matters to attend to. He got back to them in great detail in a rather short period of time. And I think any reasonable person would say the same.
So the question now is how "immediately" plays into the OP getting a legitimate refund.
immediately
adv. 1) at once. 2) in orders of the court or in contracts it means "as soon as can be done" without excuse.
So the argument would be if the OP did this "as soon as could be done," or if that was an "excuse." My interpretation from what I have heard is that the OP is extremely dedicated to his schooling and profession, and the lives of his patients do indeed come first. So it was indeed done "as soon as can be done." Not everyone can play the text and drive game.
I am sure having someone else email was not in the order of business when there are more critical matters to attend to. He got back to them in great detail in a rather short period of time. And I think any reasonable person would say the same.
So the question now is how "immediately" plays into the OP getting a legitimate refund.
Olexian Pro
New member
Hey all,
Sorry for not clarifying this in my last post, but my last post was in fact directed at "Groundhog" for stating that I should bail on my $150,000.00 education for a $500.00 business deal gone bad in the face of critical patients who are depending on me for care. It kinda made me laugh a little too because for those of you who bring the point about me not contacting Kelvin within 51 hours, lol try being a vet student. I get 4 hours of sleep a night and one square meal a day if I am lucky. I have not had a personal life in the better part of 4 years, since I was an undergrad. lol believe me I would have loved to have time to Email Mr. Soto, hell I would have written him an entire Christmas card, except hes now off my holiday card list lol.
As I stated in my earlier posts, I walked in my front door and immediatly received an emergency call enrought to the hospital at UGA. I have 30 min to get there when ever I am called and the consequence of being late would cost me my position in veterinary school especially if my patient dies because I am not there to initiate treatment. The problem I have is that I live 30 minutes away. I literally had no time to contact Kelvin and had to leave immediately. I was at the hospital for a little over 24 hours that day, with no breaks mind you.
School is all I do on a daily basis. They make my schedule for me and I have no say in it. I do what I am told, not as I please. In fact I am currently typing this too you from a Barn as I am in between my 11am and 12pm treatments. lol Not looking for sympathy here, but I do mean to emphasize that it was not possible for me to contact Kelvin the very second the animals were received. Top priority is the care of the animals when ever I am confronted with a health related issue. Once they have been cared for in the appropriate manner, the rest may ensue, such as my communications with Kelvin. And for the conditions they had affecting them, 51 hours is immediately. The mere hours spent between receiving the animals and my communications with Kelvin is majorly splitting hairs. Doubt me? Check the literature. It is all there for you to enjoy.
Sorry for not clarifying this in my last post, but my last post was in fact directed at "Groundhog" for stating that I should bail on my $150,000.00 education for a $500.00 business deal gone bad in the face of critical patients who are depending on me for care. It kinda made me laugh a little too because for those of you who bring the point about me not contacting Kelvin within 51 hours, lol try being a vet student. I get 4 hours of sleep a night and one square meal a day if I am lucky. I have not had a personal life in the better part of 4 years, since I was an undergrad. lol believe me I would have loved to have time to Email Mr. Soto, hell I would have written him an entire Christmas card, except hes now off my holiday card list lol.
As I stated in my earlier posts, I walked in my front door and immediatly received an emergency call enrought to the hospital at UGA. I have 30 min to get there when ever I am called and the consequence of being late would cost me my position in veterinary school especially if my patient dies because I am not there to initiate treatment. The problem I have is that I live 30 minutes away. I literally had no time to contact Kelvin and had to leave immediately. I was at the hospital for a little over 24 hours that day, with no breaks mind you.
School is all I do on a daily basis. They make my schedule for me and I have no say in it. I do what I am told, not as I please. In fact I am currently typing this too you from a Barn as I am in between my 11am and 12pm treatments. lol Not looking for sympathy here, but I do mean to emphasize that it was not possible for me to contact Kelvin the very second the animals were received. Top priority is the care of the animals when ever I am confronted with a health related issue. Once they have been cared for in the appropriate manner, the rest may ensue, such as my communications with Kelvin. And for the conditions they had affecting them, 51 hours is immediately. The mere hours spent between receiving the animals and my communications with Kelvin is majorly splitting hairs. Doubt me? Check the literature. It is all there for you to enjoy.
Olexian Pro
New member
I'm going to necropsy the dead snake when I get home today, so for those of you who are interested in a reptile anatomy/pathophysiology lesson, keep a close eye for posts coming soon.
critical bill
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How then do you have anytime to keep and care for your own personal collection of animals?
AF Exotics
Member
Excellent question Chuck .After reading this thread and watching it in it's entirety,I believe the following:
1.Jason is owed something,but did not follow terms as stated for complete refund .
2. Jason,although you have a busy schedule,and were given an expectation of healthy,robust animals by the pictures you received in advance,should've have made accommodations to inspect,or someone in your proxy,inspect those animals upon arrival .
3.Your busy schedule doesn't qualify as a reason to void terms stated and highlited by you,unless agreed upon in advance by both parties .
4.Those snakes should've never been sent out in that condition .PERIOD
5.Those 51 hours of space do not grant Mr.Soto a free pass either .You need to compensated somehow .
6.The civil tone you have taken Jason speaks volumes,and is to be applauded .
Let me say I know neither party but do see the need for remedy by Mr.Soto .I also can't see the logic behind the idea of making Mr.Estrada,an employee at the time,financially responsible for what his employer told him to pack .He did as instructed,and probably came here out of remorse for doing it .We all have made decisions we regret .That is why their mistakes,we did something wrong,and Mr.Estrada did when he packed those snakes .Now here is the kicker,my opinion is only based on what we see here .
It is an excellent question asked by Chuck for another reason,was it 51 hours before Jason could actually start to provide care to the animals,could that have made a difference in their survival,not the fact that they had the illnesses they had,that's been discussed and satisfied,but life saving treatment .Just a question .
1.Jason is owed something,but did not follow terms as stated for complete refund .
2. Jason,although you have a busy schedule,and were given an expectation of healthy,robust animals by the pictures you received in advance,should've have made accommodations to inspect,or someone in your proxy,inspect those animals upon arrival .
3.Your busy schedule doesn't qualify as a reason to void terms stated and highlited by you,unless agreed upon in advance by both parties .
4.Those snakes should've never been sent out in that condition .PERIOD
5.Those 51 hours of space do not grant Mr.Soto a free pass either .You need to compensated somehow .
6.The civil tone you have taken Jason speaks volumes,and is to be applauded .
Let me say I know neither party but do see the need for remedy by Mr.Soto .I also can't see the logic behind the idea of making Mr.Estrada,an employee at the time,financially responsible for what his employer told him to pack .He did as instructed,and probably came here out of remorse for doing it .We all have made decisions we regret .That is why their mistakes,we did something wrong,and Mr.Estrada did when he packed those snakes .Now here is the kicker,my opinion is only based on what we see here .
It is an excellent question asked by Chuck for another reason,was it 51 hours before Jason could actually start to provide care to the animals,could that have made a difference in their survival,not the fact that they had the illnesses they had,that's been discussed and satisfied,but life saving treatment .Just a question .
"Your busy schedule doesn't qualify as a reason to void terms stated and highlited by you,unless agreed upon in advance by both parties ."
I think you guys are missing that "immediately" is not an appropriate term for contract, as it is too vague and up for interpretation. Nothing is voided. 51 hours and 51 seconds could both be disputed in either direction (the latter being slightly more difficult, I do agree). By a jury of peers here, I would bet the majority would agree that less than 3 business days is a reasonable amount if time, and especially in these circumstances. And these circumstances DO matter because the term "immediately" is defined using "as soon as can be done." It is relative.
Had Soto's terms said "within 24 hours" we would not have anything to argue, and Jason would lose the case. So both parties can pee into the wind on this one until it is taken to court. Check your time frame on when this needs to be presented Jason, but I would be you have 6 months.
I don't think anyone here hold Alex Estrada financially responsible in any way. Responsible in some way, absolutely...but certainly not financially. And on a legal ground, no court would ever hold Estrada financially responsible. However, if it did go to court and the seller was ordered to pay shipping costs or any expense outside the direct cost of the animals, Soto I suppose could hold Estrada liable in some way. But that would be a pretty tough one.
Had Jason started treating the snakes in less than 51 hours (which I believe both parties did say occurred within the 51 hours and 45 minutes since Jason contacted them with all evidence prepared), that is a touch call I doubt anyone could answer. The bottom line is no snake should have been sent in that critical of condition (and would not have been sent according to Soto's terms anyway...so moot point...right?)
I think you guys are missing that "immediately" is not an appropriate term for contract, as it is too vague and up for interpretation. Nothing is voided. 51 hours and 51 seconds could both be disputed in either direction (the latter being slightly more difficult, I do agree). By a jury of peers here, I would bet the majority would agree that less than 3 business days is a reasonable amount if time, and especially in these circumstances. And these circumstances DO matter because the term "immediately" is defined using "as soon as can be done." It is relative.
Had Soto's terms said "within 24 hours" we would not have anything to argue, and Jason would lose the case. So both parties can pee into the wind on this one until it is taken to court. Check your time frame on when this needs to be presented Jason, but I would be you have 6 months.
I don't think anyone here hold Alex Estrada financially responsible in any way. Responsible in some way, absolutely...but certainly not financially. And on a legal ground, no court would ever hold Estrada financially responsible. However, if it did go to court and the seller was ordered to pay shipping costs or any expense outside the direct cost of the animals, Soto I suppose could hold Estrada liable in some way. But that would be a pretty tough one.
Had Jason started treating the snakes in less than 51 hours (which I believe both parties did say occurred within the 51 hours and 45 minutes since Jason contacted them with all evidence prepared), that is a touch call I doubt anyone could answer. The bottom line is no snake should have been sent in that critical of condition (and would not have been sent according to Soto's terms anyway...so moot point...right?)
AF Exotics
Member
Gavin,"immediately" is open to interpretation,as you pointed out .Legal semantics aside,let's go with with "reasonability",for a benchmark .Jason had a "reasonable" expectation of otherwise heathy animals arriving .He also had a "reasonable" understanding of TOC's terms .
Both of these premises could be canceled out until the "cows came home" .
You had made inferences about Alex,having some of Jason's money .I was just addressing that very statement and it's merit ,and it has none as you pointed out .No question,we both agree,those snakes should've never left the building .My post was to point out that there are problems in both directions .You still can see the initial fault as being on Mr.Soto's plate .I know I can .NO QUESTION THERE EITHER .He should do what he needs to do to please Jason within reason .The small claims court thing is a waste of time,as it appears Jason doesn't have to spare ,but still those snakes are not to be Jason's problem .They are Mr.Soto's to atone for . I think TOC is going to fare far worse if he does not address this problem correctly .
Both of these premises could be canceled out until the "cows came home" .
You had made inferences about Alex,having some of Jason's money .I was just addressing that very statement and it's merit ,and it has none as you pointed out .No question,we both agree,those snakes should've never left the building .My post was to point out that there are problems in both directions .You still can see the initial fault as being on Mr.Soto's plate .I know I can .NO QUESTION THERE EITHER .He should do what he needs to do to please Jason within reason .The small claims court thing is a waste of time,as it appears Jason doesn't have to spare ,but still those snakes are not to be Jason's problem .They are Mr.Soto's to atone for . I think TOC is going to fare far worse if he does not address this problem correctly .
R. Eventide
So say we all!
He never said that the four hours of sleep a night and one square meal a day was only due to school. Sounds like it's 99% of it, yes, but he was referring to not having time for a social life. I doubt that he includes taking care of his animals as a social life. I don't either, and I don't know of anyone else who does either.
People who have never been in graduate, medical, or vet school have no idea what it entails. I'm a graduate student in astronomy; we get paid half-time for 80 hours/week of work. And if you're taking classes and working, it can get downright miserable. From talking to people in my department, it seems at at least 50% of the graduate students are on anti-depressants. That should tell you what higher education costs in areas other than money.
"Immediately" does mean "right away"; however, it is distinctly different from "when the animals arrive." One could argue that "immediately," in the context of shipping animals, could mean "as soon as humanly possible." We're splitting hairs here, though. Any decent human being--not to mention any decent breeder--would see what happened and would issue a refund, "immediately" or not. Seems to me like this guy is just making up excuses.
Jason, I applaud you for how you've handled this situation--and the people here--so well through the entire process and how you did whatever you could to save those snakes. You have done absolutely nothing wrong; don't let anyone tell you differently. I only wish more people were as concerned about the animals as you are.
AF Exotics
Member
Great post Krystal,and even better signature .I think all the "stuff" on the peripheral washes out and only one thing matters.Jason ordered "healthy,robust animals clearly pictured" and received otherwise .Mr.Soto needs to fix that .
I pointed out there are circumstances that could be argued all day,but morally,not legally,morally speaking,those animals were in bad shape and shouldn't have been shipped .
I pointed out there are circumstances that could be argued all day,but morally,not legally,morally speaking,those animals were in bad shape and shouldn't have been shipped .
Marcus, I in no way meant that as to suggest Estrada held any financial obligation in this matter. What I did intend was to provide a little added guilt trip on Alex though, as he did get paid to ship Jason those snakes. He is the only one that can communicate this matter to Kelvin, and I applaud him for what he has so far accomplished...but it isn't over, and both Soto and Estrada have benefited in some way from Jason's misfortune. Alex is getting more than his fair share put on him here, but his reputation and pocket book are also the least at risk, and he has the greatest potential to benefit from this...so I don't want to feel too bad for keeping the pressure on him.
Now back to the legal terms. I really do think, "We only sell high quality, healthy animals" was a broken contract, and "as soon as can be done" was met. But hey, I am glad we all agree that moral merit ranks at about a zero so far for Kelvin Soto. But I still have a shred of hope...think you could help solidify this Alex?
Now back to the legal terms. I really do think, "We only sell high quality, healthy animals" was a broken contract, and "as soon as can be done" was met. But hey, I am glad we all agree that moral merit ranks at about a zero so far for Kelvin Soto. But I still have a shred of hope...think you could help solidify this Alex?
AF Exotics
Member
Gavin,that is why I played the devils advocate with the "schedule issue",as important as it is to Jason,is as unimportant it is to TOC,if they want to stick to the terms .What it gets back to is Jason was expecting healthy,quite striking animals and didn't get that .Those 51 hours muddied the waters a bit,but still we have a problem Houston,those snakes looked bad upon arrival and that,is the issue .I have no doubt in my mind that their condition could NOT have worsened that much within the time frame Jason gave .
TOC needs to fix that .Chuck brought up a good point in the time frame that could..."could" be looked at in a different light,but nothing is clearer than what Krystal put .Any decent breeder,or importer/broker/business would replace those animals .
TOC needs to fix that .Chuck brought up a good point in the time frame that could..."could" be looked at in a different light,but nothing is clearer than what Krystal put .Any decent breeder,or importer/broker/business would replace those animals .
I disagree totally Marcus. ToCR should not be obligated to replace the animals, they should be obligated to refund his money since we can safely presume ToCR has lost credibility in meeting the expectations of reasonable standards on what a "healthy" animal is.
And we still have that aspect of "immediately" that says "as soon as can be done," and a reasonable person standard. What ToCR interprets immediately as is pointless since they have given no suggestion as to what time frame would have been acceptable...only that Jason didn't make it, and they WOULD have done something if he had. I really think we are spinning a lot to focus on this, but I really don't want to let any hint of a loophole appear possible to anyone reading this, as I don't think any judge would hold ToCRs terms and testimony credible. I think it would hurt any of us to give Soto any backing on his terms.
If Jason has 6 months to make a lawsuit out of this, he will be out of vet school by then. And I would guess he has a minimum of that in either state. And if I am not mistaken, it is actually Soto that needs to be more worried about the time frame, as it is not likely to harm Jason at all if he allows Soto more time to make good on his promise (which he has in writing and an additional bounced check to prove it more).
This case really is shut. Soto has already made a written obligation against him and a fraudulent check. It is going to cost him way more in court to get out of this one than Jason. The only matter at hand is how long will Soto let it go on and continue to hurt his business.
And we still have that aspect of "immediately" that says "as soon as can be done," and a reasonable person standard. What ToCR interprets immediately as is pointless since they have given no suggestion as to what time frame would have been acceptable...only that Jason didn't make it, and they WOULD have done something if he had. I really think we are spinning a lot to focus on this, but I really don't want to let any hint of a loophole appear possible to anyone reading this, as I don't think any judge would hold ToCRs terms and testimony credible. I think it would hurt any of us to give Soto any backing on his terms.
If Jason has 6 months to make a lawsuit out of this, he will be out of vet school by then. And I would guess he has a minimum of that in either state. And if I am not mistaken, it is actually Soto that needs to be more worried about the time frame, as it is not likely to harm Jason at all if he allows Soto more time to make good on his promise (which he has in writing and an additional bounced check to prove it more).
This case really is shut. Soto has already made a written obligation against him and a fraudulent check. It is going to cost him way more in court to get out of this one than Jason. The only matter at hand is how long will Soto let it go on and continue to hurt his business.
AF Exotics
Member
One thing to edit,"refund immediately" as Krystal stated,or at least replace immediately,as I feel they should,or some remedy Jason can work with . .Wanted to clarify that .
AF Exotics
Member
Oh,also about the echeck Gavin,I had a larger one passed to me a couple years back,it bounced,to the tune of 1900.00 ,and when
AF Exotics
Member
it bounced,every authority under the sun in this guys home state wouldn't do a darn thing about it,including Paypal .Sorry,must have hit enter .I hope things have changed for Jason's sake .Gavin,we can agree to disagree,Jason violated the terms,play with words all you want,so did Mr.Soto,but he needs to what is right .
AF Exotics
Member
And as far as written obligation,same thing I had,numerous email after email ,posted here in fact in a thread,how the guy would make it right,like Mr.Soto,and IC3,BBB,his Local Police,Attorney General's Office of his state and Paypal basically told me it wasn't enough to warrant their time .