tremper incubation method

[robin d.]

ok to get this forum rolling i wanted to get peoples thoughs and opinions on the tremper incubation method...
any of you who do not know
he starts incubation i believe at 80 degrees to determine the sex (female), this lasts for 2 week.. after the two week he put the animal in a 90 degree incubator for the remainder until it hatches.
now what this does the manipulating of the temps is causes amounts of melanin in the animals... resulting in lighter brighter animals.....
now while they make look pretty and all it sure doesnt say a thing about the animals genetics.. i mean yeah its an albino but its light coloration isnt an effect of a genetic mutation.
to me its cheating. now while each to their own, i belive if you incubate this way you should planely state it, to me it makes a HUGE difference and personally i would not knowingly buy an animal incubated this way.
i give credit to the people who are selectively breeding their animals to achieve this putting there time and effort into the animal, which in my mind would result in a much more sound animal genetically.
because if i bought two tremper albinos whom had been tremper temp manipulated and bred then and incubated the eggs normall and hatched out brown albinos i would be pissed...... ok so lets here it and i invite you to the poll and to comment

 

[Seamus Haley]

Thing is...

This isn't an incubation method which forces the animals into temperature ranges outside that which are acceptable for the production of healthy animals (Like the old "pastel" RES "trick").

It's also a method which is widely known and can be replicated by anyone who's breeding their own animals... it's not as if Ron has made a major secret of this strategy. Rather than being irate at brownish neonates, why not just use the same methods? (Not aimed at anyone in particular, just a general question).

I frankly think that the tyrosinase positive strain of albinism represents a greater potential when it comes to the development of additional morphs, the added ability to manipulate the density of melanocytes by manipulating incubation temperature is just another advantage to the strain.

While I am wholeheartedly against the "creation" of morphs using kool-aid or photoshop, incubation temperature fluxuations within the acceptable healthy range for the species result in an animal which will not change color the first time it sheds. The tremper strain has always been represented as a tyrosinase positive strain, any brownish neonates are the responsibility of the breeder... Anyone who isn't familiar enough with the basic pigment production process and the genetics involved with the strain really has no business breeding morphs anyway (or anything else, but I'm picky about what breeders should know, this information is pretty basic).

Just my opinion though.

 

[robin d.]

you have some goof points.. but i see it as being misleading
it has no bearing of the genetics the animal holds. if left at cooler temps these temp manipulated animals will revert and turn at least a portion back it its "somewhat" original color, being brownish.
all forms of albinos thus far in leopard geckos... bell, rainwater and trempers are tryonaise positive... each other them different and i think you can get your diversity there or by selective breeding but not by manipulating temps... just my thoughts

 

[KelliH]

I will not use that method to incubate my leopard gecko eggs because of the really poor results I had on a "test" group of 100 eggs last year. I had a very poor hatch rate and also had an unusually high number of deformities with this group of eggs that I incubated using the Tremper method. Big temperature fluctuations and reptile egg incubation do not go well together! Oh, yeah and to top it all off, most of the geckos turned out male anyway!

I think Tremper probably had to come out a couple of years ago and explain how he incubates his leo eggs. He had been using the method for years, which is why people would buy yellow and pink/white albinos from him, breed them and get some brown babies when incubated normally.

I don't really have a problem with those who use this method to incubate eggs. They can incubate them however the want to but I do think it is only fair to the buyers that these breeders that choose to do this make it clear that their animals are a result of using this method. Lately I think there has become a sort of "stigma" attached to those breeders using this method to incubate their Tremper albino eggs, and I am pretty sure a couple of them are denying the use of the method when they obviously do use it (not going to name names here). For instance they may have announced on their website that they do use this incubation method with no adverse effects but now all of the sudden that statement is gone and they publically deny using the tremper method!

But if there is no problem with Tremper's incubation method than why do some feel the need to hide it from customers? Hmmm food for thought I guess..

 

[Seamus Haley]

How specific has Tremper gotten in his description of the methods used?

Meaning... leopard geckos aren't my favorite things, I pay attention to them because they are reptiles but only to a certain degree unless a point catches my interest (like this thread). Last I had seen, it was simply stated that the temperatures were raised after the phase of growth encompassing gender determination but before the development of pigment producing cells. Has the timeline become more specific? Has the exact method become more specific? Meaning; there's a big difference between switching the incubation temperature by ten, fifteen degrees over the course of five days or a week and then doing the same within a span of minutes.

I know that the two other individuals who have responded on this thread are a far cry away from the single pair basement breeders who might be screwing this up left and right and baking their babies, but depending on how specific a description was given, there still leaves a great deal of room for personal interpretation into the method, which might result in differing degrees of success.

I do see and acknowledge the point about the potential to misrepresent an animal, IF the animals are sold specifically as breeders, with a strong emphasis on the color as a selling point... But even then, the animals themselves are the color that they appear and they are from a bloodline or group of breeding stock which has the potential to replicate the color, it's just a bit tricker than a direct crossing of animals where the phenotype is entirely genotypical without the environmental influence.

 

[KelliH]

Seamus-

Check out these links:

http://www.leopardgecko.com/colorfaq.html

http://www.leopardgecko.com/color.html

 

[Intense Herpetoculture]

I incubated about the same number of eggs (100) as Kelli and had the same problems she stated, low hatch rates (only 40%), a lot of deformities (about 1 in 4), and to top it off, the majority of them turned out to be males!!!

Many breeders say that they do have the problems that other breeders including myself are reporting. The majority of these breeders are using small groups not consisting of more then 10-20 eggs, and it is often the breeders first time successfully reproducing leopard geckos. I also seem to notice several larger breeders using this method and swearing up and down that they have none of the problems we've talked about, what is with that??? I personally think they are hiding something, and they got every reason too. The least they should do is state that the geckos have been incubated using the Tremper/Viets method, don't you???

As for deformities, the majority of the deformities I have experienced are related to development of the eye lids. There may be additional internal and external deformities, perhaps closer observation is required? So why is the temperature fluctuations causing eye lid deformities? Perhaps the higher temperatures are causing premature hatchling and the eye lids still have not developed fully yet??? A lot of people have attributed this problem to vitamin A deficiency, but not one person has been able to tell me why a deficiency in vitamin A would cause underdevelopment of the eye lids, which I mostly only see in geckos incubation with the Tremper method, extreme temperature fluctuations, and severely inbred geckos. I think we need to look into this matter further.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Thanks for the links Kelli, that's exactly what I had seen about the issue months ago when it was brought to my attention on another forum.

It's really not very specific about how it's done, mentioning only the temperature ranges and a time frame, but not listing a grade of change from one temperature to another. Switching eggs instantly from the low eighties to ninety or above can't be good for them, there has to be something a bit more complex involved here.

I do find it interesting that several very reputable breeders have experienced problems with their test groups though... Do the results obtained by others match those which were obtained by Justyn? Were the developmental abnormalities similar?

The only thing which really makes me question if this method is really "bad" or just not as detailed as it should be is Tremper's status in the industry. Ignoring for the moment any of the controversy that surrounds the price drop which he perpetuated that ticked off many other breeders (not really a legitimate complaint)... He and the Center for Reptile and Amphibian propogation are the single largest producer of albino leopard geckos in the world. While this does mean that his breeding stock is large enough to allow him to create larger control groups and test experiments which may not pan out without losing large portions of his potential income... I don't see how anyone losing 40% of their clutches could maintain that place (in terms of production numbers).

 

[Intense Herpetoculture]

I no longer think Ron produces the most amount of albino leopard geckos, I am pretty sure that Gormet Rodent and/or Reptile Industries (Mark and Kim Bell) produces 2-3 times as many, and that's just the Tremper strain. Reptile Industries also works with the Bell strain.

 

[Seamus Haley]

I was under the impression that Gourmet Rodent merely acted as a middleman for most of the herps they sold which were not fresh imports.

Kinda like Mid America or Animals Etc... Buying up entire clutches and collections from anyone who'll sell, be it a single animal or a group of a few hundred.

Could be wrong here but... I didn't think they distributed much except russian torts loaded with parasites, corns of indeterminate genetics and leopard geckos... and obtained them as mentioned above.

Not sure about the Bells...

Regardless of being THE biggest or just ONE OF THE biggest though, if the incubation methods used AS used by Tremper were causing the same kind of results as others have had in replicating it, I don't think he could maintain the production level which he does. Which means that there's some information missing someplace.

 

[KelliH]

Seamus-

Gourmet Rodent has hundreds of breeder leopard geckos. They actually have some of the nicest hypo tangerines around, but they also have (or had) a wholesale contract with either PetCo or Petsmart. I would bet Mark Bell has even more leos than Gourmet Rodent, though he has talked recently about getting out of them alltogether.

I agree that there must be something missing from Tremper's recipe. One might get better results if there was a less drastic fluctuation, meaning incubate at 80 for 2-3 weeks, 85 for 1 week, 90 for the duration or something like that. Hmm I may have to do another experiment this year...

 

[Intense Herpetoculture]

I tried that Kelli, no eggs even hatched out of the 6 or so clutches I rose to 85 and then 90, sad huh? Maybe 80-85??? I don't think I'll be increasing any temps this year on any fo my eggs, I lost way to many!!! Even Tremper acknowledged that there was an increased amount of eggs that failed to hatch using this method.

Mark Bell out of leos!!!! I hope so, I mean why not, I'm sure he could make more cash off other animals, like ball pythons, crested geckos, bearded dragons, I don't know. Right now the leo market could really use a boost with the Bells dropping that project, crossing my fingers!!!! The least they could do is drop production.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

"Tremper" method? I think not.

I do not understand why Ron Tremper keeps getting credit for this widely used, and not-so-new incubation method! It is actually an "old-school" technique, and is well documented as far back as 1988 (or earlier) when Gutzke and Crews were doing their studies on temperature vs. gender. Heck, if you take a look at the old version of "The Leopard Gecko Manual", Dr. Brian E. Viets has an entire section devoted to his studies from 1993, including photos of the various pigment variations that were produced by manipulating incubation temperatures!

I do not see any problem with incubating for 'color' any more than incubating for gender. It occurs naturally with the fluctuations of the average temperatures in the nests of reptiles in the wild. Besides, if incubation temperature was the sole determining factor in the overall pigmentation of Leopard Geckos, then the males of the species would have less melanin than females by virtue of their higher incubation temperatures, and this is simply not the case.

 

[Xavier]

This is the first topic I've ever read on this forum and man is it a good one. I always been curious about this method. To the point of I personally e-mailed Ron Trempor. Here is his reply

Well, all I can say is that I collect eggs once a week here, so
14 more days at the cool temp works for me. To be safe go 20 days
at the lower temps.
Switching the eggs has never been a real problem here.
It is a known fact that keeping embryos at a constant 90F does kill
a small percentage of the eggs. This percentage is less than 1-2%,
which is well worth it to get the best color.
Reasons why some folks fail are:
* poor nutrition in the adult females
* incubators that are not performing correctly
* improper mositure levels
* no air circulation
* presence to deadly ammonia due to some infertile eggs spoiling
* bad record keeping
The bottom line is that if this technique did not work then I would have
been out of business long long ago.
If folks want to make darker pigments then that is fine.
Regards,
Ron Tremper.........


Now I feel after all the learning and insits there really is something else. I kept up with kelliH and she has an awesome rept for having great leos. But anyways what I'm confused about right now is someone like Alberto who buy from Ron but the doesn't use that incubation method produces very nice leos right off the back from the breeders. I know this for a fact cause he cleary stated he doesn't use that and he bought some giants last year from Ron and the offsrign where very nice. So if it doesn't get passed on then what? What about males do most breed then at 87-88 and not 90? I'm askign abotu all morphs

 

[KelliH]

To the point of I personally e-mailed Ron Trempor. Here is his reply

Well, all I can say is that I collect eggs once a week here, so
14 more days at the cool temp works for me. To be safe go 20 days
at the lower temps.
Switching the eggs has never been a real problem here.
It is a known fact that keeping embryos at a constant 90F does kill
a small percentage of the eggs. This percentage is less than 1-2%,
which is well worth it to get the best color.
Reasons why some folks fail are:
* poor nutrition in the adult females
* incubators that are not performing correctly
* improper mositure levels
* no air circulation
* presence to deadly ammonia due to some infertile eggs spoiling
* bad record keeping

But if that is so, why have I always had such fantastic success rates when I incubate at 88-89 for males and 80-82 for females? I think I have perfected my incubation techniques as well as my record keeping skills to a tee. Not to mention I know how to keep an adult female healthy! Hmmm more food for thought...oke2:

 

[A&M Gecko]

Hello
I just like to say something about this. I do have some experience on Tremper albinos and this is what I think about the all situation. I agree that who is using this method should state as such. I did try this method on a portion of my eggs in a little different way then Ron describes it. I had eggs in 82 dg. incubator for 2 weeks, move them to the 85 dg. incubator for a week and then move them in the 88 dg. incubator (I do not set any of my incubators at 90 deg. because I like to stay on the safe side). I thought that way would have been safer for the eggs instead of moving them to the hottest temps right the way. The result was that, like kelli experience, not all the eggs hatched as females. I did not have any deformities and I lost the same average of eggs that I lose with the normal way, very few, like 2-3%. The difference in this matter with the other breeders with experience in leos that say they lost a lot of eggs maybe is that I visited Ron facility and he buries the eggs in the perlite at list 2" and does not keep them on the top like most breeders do, and that is the way I did it. Maybe been under the perlite protects the eggs from the big change in the temps? Just a thought of mine there. As the quality of the females, the difference was not about the quality of the females but on hatching the nice ones in a little better percentage then the normal way. With the fact that not all the eggs hatch as a female and not better looking made me not want to change the incubation method. Stated this, I like to add that Trempers albinos have been improving every years, and people that think that the change in the colors from the original brown ones to the nice tangerine ones is only because of his incubation methods are wrong (this is my opinion after years of experience with Ron line). I like to add that I still hatch a portion of my albinos with that brawn colors but I chose to sell those at the local show for very little $ instead of putting them on my site. What you see on my website as breeders and for sale are the best of hundreds that we hatch every year that is why I charge some top $ for the high end ones. Someone in this posts said that Trempers albino that hatched with his method may turn brawn if kept at lower temps then normal, yes that is true, but not because they hatched with that method, but because that is a studied fact that albinos get darker if kept in cooler temps because of the melanine in their skin. In addition to this, I can add that in my experience I have in this albinos is that not all of them will turn dark but some will, even if they were incubated at strait 82 deg. Now if we all know that, and we know that a rest period from breeding without cooling the geckos is as safe and healthy for your geckos, why should we cool them down and take a chance on loosing the nice colors of some of our albino (bell, rainwater or trempers, no difference there)? I keep mine at the same temps through out the entire year and many people do the same with no negative effect on the geckos, albinos or not. To respond to another post I like to say that I did buy geckos from Ron that were incubated with his method and I still got nice babies from them with the normal incubation, maybe not as nice as his, but definitely not brown and I am very happy with the outcome.
My final thought (you mast been saying by now, thank good, lol) is that it seems to me that some people cannot believe how nice some of this geckos look and cannot believe that is just selective breeding, well buy your own (preferably from me, lol) and do your experiment and you will find out that is just like breeding 2 very nice SHT, some babies will hatch better looking and some will look like <font color=red>[bleep]</font>, as simple as that.
Please feal free to email me for more questions in the matter, I am an open book and I will be very happy to answer any questions or just reply to this post.
Regards to all, Alberto

 

[KelliH]

Alberto-

Thank you so much for posting! It is so imperative that things like this are discussed, and I hope that this forum will become a place where we all feel comfortable speaking our mind and talking about these types of issues with open minds.

I have thought before that perhaps burying the eggs would help reduce fatalities. I'm not going to try that method again this year though. It will be tempting to use it on my Hybino Bell project but I really want to hatch out all the eggs and I also want them to be the sex I incubate them for! So I will incubate them the way I always have. I don't see a big difference in color between male and female Bells either, so it may not affect them at all.

I have a pair of really nice tangerine albinos that were produced by you Alberto (I got the from Ruben). Here's the pics of them:

I am going to incubate female eggs from this pair at 80-82, it will be interesting to see if the female offspring are doo doo brown or not. I have a funny feeling they probably will be, but hopefully not! The main reason i got the pair was because I wanted to find out for myself if tangerine albinos like those can produce offspring just as nice when incubated at "normal" female incubation temps. Inquiring minds wanted to know!

 

[Monte]

Alberto - I have a question and a request . . .

. . . by the way - thanks for the great explanation.

I am curious on how you incubate your eggs. You said you bury them in the perilite 2 inches. If it is possible - and if you have the time - could you post what that looks like. do you cover them, or just tunnel them down 2 inches? I'm very interested.

I guess it should be alright to bury them - heck, my leos scratch EVERY bit of peat moss over the egss - until it looks like a ski slope.

Alberto, thanks again for the great information. Your animals are really nice.

 

[A&M Gecko]

Kelli
I am so happy that you have that pair from my line. I am sure you will hatch some ugly ones but you will get some nice females from that pair as well, I am sure. Do not judge the babies at first, give them at list 3 months before you do because the geckos I am working with get better and better with time, just like SHT. One more thing I forgot to say in my post is that some breeders keep their albino from birth at 100 deg. on the hot side to show them much better looking then what they are. Do not ask me who does that but I know for sure. I think that is cheating because you are going way outside the temps for keeping leos and these breeders are risking the geckos health to get better color. People that buy those will be very disappointed with the outcome and will not buy from those breeders again. Thanks Kelli for reading my post, I like to know the outcome from those geckos, I am sure you will make a lot of people change their mind because you are much more experienced them me and you have been around for much longer and people will trust you judgment about this.
Alberto

 

[A&M Gecko]

Hi Monte
As I said I do not use that method anymore and I do not need to bury my eggs now. I did that only when I tried that method to make the exact replica of what Ron was doing because I felt that the change in temps could have harmed the eggs. But I can answer those questions with no PIC and if you feal that you need a visual to better understand I will make a replica of that for you. The eggs are buried abut 2" and covered with perlite. Remember that leos bury their eggs in nature and believe me, the babies will make it out no problem. The problem with that is that if you have some of the eggs dying under the perlite the ammonia levels will rise very fast if you do not remove them the chance of loosing more eggs becomes greater. If anybody will like to try incubating this way I suggest to check all the eggs every week, yes I know, that is a pain if you bury the eggs, but I know Ron does that and I did the same and that is why I do not bury them anymore, it is much easier to look at them from the top and you do not have to move the perlite around to check all the eggs under it. Ammonia is one of the biggest enemy of the eggs, and as a precaution I do change the perlite every time, ones all the eggs from the same container have hatched, no mater if the eggs are on top or buried.
I hope this answers your question.
Alberto