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TW International Wyatt in Texas

Anthony, while I can agree with some of what you said Wes makes a point on the heat packs it has been cold up there for some time now and granted in this case the packs would have died long before the animal arrived that doesn't excuse not using heat packs.

Not trying to tell you who to do business with but there are other threads here about Wyatt. As is often said on the BOI it is how someone deals with problems that shows who they are. While Jen may have been in the wrong here he sure did a good job of blowing off his own foot in how he dealt with all of this, he doesn't seem to handle deals that have problems well at all.. Randy
 
Look before you Leap....

Anthony, would you rely on a condom to protect you from AIDS???? Hell No!!
The condom might break!!!! Just to mention one of many possiblities you could reason....That's about what it would be like to buy a snake from Wyatt....Make the snake get a Vet Clean Bill of Health Pass.....Hey Go read
Jens Blog on her Myspace......Updated with latest info from her Vets....I think
she has 6 dead BAll Pythons now and believe the Host Snake came from Wyatt......HaHa........Gimme one them rubbers :ack2:
 
Anthony, I'd reiterate what others have said here and that is that irrespective of Jen's issues, Wyatt has shown himself to a scumbag on multiple occasions. These instances likely are the tip of the iceberg and are well documented here on the BOI. Doing business with him from a distance involves risk that I would not take.
 
What a horrible situation.

My input: what I learned about necropsies and viruses/bacteria this year.

I had two deaths this year - one was my hog island boa female who died of a telescoped intestine and resulting infected abscess, gross necropsy results were that the death occurred as a direct result of the intestine physically overlapping and resultant wound.

The second is the pertinant one. My husband's 4 year old Mack sorong-type green tree python, who was a display animal (always housed in our living room, away from our other snakes) died suddenly in the summer. She hadn't been showing any symptoms that I had noticed (she was eating fine and shedding fine), but she wasn't a snake that we handled except to soak if she had a stuck shed, or to a temporary container while we cleaned her enclosure.

We found her when we got home from work. So, no knowing what time she died. Her eyes were clear at the time, so it had been sometime when we were at work (I would check on her in the morning when I'd mist her cage). We refrigerated her and took her for a necropsy - she had bacterial pneumonia, probably brought on by stress. I asked if we should have more tests done, and my vet, who is an exotic vet and often works for our local zoo's reptile house, said it wouldn't be worth it. He said because she had been dead for an undetermined amount of time, the fluid in her lungs could have bacteria unrelated to her actual death, that started growing as soon as she died.

Signs of viruses are probably different - but the message I got was that unless a specimen is taken in for testing within a few HOURS of passing away, any samples taken can be considered tainted by any bacteria that may have started growing at the time of death. Refrigeration doesn't completely stop bacterial growth, either, but it helps to slow it.

So, unless the dead snake went straight into the fridge after its death, there is already some room for doubt as to the actual cause of death, unless testing clearly points to one certain UNUSUAL virus or bacteria.

This is what I took away from what my vet explained to me, I'm not sure if I recalled it correctly. I remember being dismayed that it is so difficult to have accurate testing done on a deceased animal, but it does make sense. The minute a critter dies (or their blood cells die), any resistance to pathogens in their system had to reproducing is gone, and the rotting process begins.

I'm not saying a link cannot be made to these animals. But getting a sample of the accused vector of the illness (the snake Jen bought from Damion) compared to samples taken as soon as possible after the other snakes' deaths would be the only way to prove anything...

This wouldn't even prove which snake had contracted the illness first. You'd need another sample conclusively showing that another snake Damion had sold had the exact same (unusual) bacteria or virus present.

Until that happens, it's just a possibility and not worth arguing.

Jen now knows the risks of airborne pathogens to a collection with limited space, and I'm sure she's horribly upset by it, that is one of the hugely scary parts of this hobby. Damion seems awfully quick to pass blame, and at least one other snake he sold has been sick. BUT no proof to link them directly.

But there's no proof anywhere, here... unfortunately. I watch too much Law & Order maybe, but you shouldn't convict someone on "more than likely", no matter how unsavory their behavior.

Mr. Wyatt - you should address those other outstanding issues, I'd not do business with you based on those issues and your attitude here. Jen - good luck trying to get your snakes healthy again, it's terrible to see an animal in your care suffer, no matter what the cause or how it came to be.
 
Forgot to add - the GTP's 'stress' may or may not have been linked to ovulating for the first time, her ovaries had showed recent signs of activity in the necropsy. :(
 
Anthony.....I can only suggest you read Jen's Myspace blog about all of this before purchasing anything from Wyatt. There's a lot of information on there that I think ANYONE who has Ball Pythons needs to read, but even moreso in this case. If you want to still call Jen's vet ignorant after reading it, well....nothing anyone here says is going to change that.

That and well, Wyatt was a scumbag long before this.
 
On the off chance that I am about to become a very hated person I apologize ahead of time if this sounds like I’m ripping into Jen - I'm not that is not my intent but there are some very important facts that I feel need to be addressed if we are to get to the truth of the matter.

First being in regards to Wyatt:

When Jen came to the BOI with the accusation that Wyatt had sent her an animal that was sick and had gotten her other snake sick – her accusation was made under the belief that this was a fairly standard RI and because someone else had received a snake from him with a standard RI this had to be the source of the infection. However - with that in mind it would be highly unlikely for the snake to have spread the infection to that degree in less than 24 hours - especially with proper quarantine procedure that Jen insisted she had. Yet she made the accusation. Under the circumstances I can’t say that I blame Wyatt for cautiously wanting more info – I would too if I were in his shoes – wouldn’t you? It wasn’t like he completely discounted it he was willing to work with her. Considering he received an email stating there were no signs of RI in the female and she was in fact eating and feisty, etc. then to be accused of sending a sick animal might be a bit frustrating. That he got defensive when attacked here doesn’t surprise me. I am not stating this as a defense for his actions nor do I resolve him of any responsibility – but impartially I understand where his actions were coming from.

Second – there is a timeline issue and yes Jen you made huge changes in the time line as well as other vital information along the way.

Prior to her BOI posts she posted on TSK that Dizzy was sick and she’d gotten the vet tech to bring her Baytril because the Tylan wasn’t working. She doesn’t say where the Tylan came from and there wasn’t any receipt to show when she saw the vet and received the Tylan prescription. For all we know it could have been prior to the Hets arrival? More than likely it was left over meds from the WC girl that died earlier in the year that she insisted wasn’t there for more than a few days and not long enough to treat. Unfortunately her post in March says the snake was there for a week and that she was treating it with the Tylan – before it died - go figure.

But back to Dizzy. According to a TSK thread Dizzy is breeding at 1500 grams at the start of September before getting sick but according to the KS thread - only 1260 something grams when the vet tech calls to get a weight for the Baytril injections – October 2nd. Certainly a weight drop of that amount would lead me to believe the snake was sick for much longer than 3 days. Or maybe Jen was just embarrassed to post that she was breeding 1200 gram snakes – especially after she read people the riot act for doing it on KS. I don’t know.I doubt she dropped 300 grams in less than 3 days.

But I digress….

So there are a few posts on the various forums of Dizzy being sick – and none mention the het who is supposedly also sick. The email to Wyatt on the night of the 29th the het is fine, feeding in fact at some point Jen even says that she is checking on her frequently just to be sure – but she looks great. But then later she says the het was sick but she didn't recognize it because she's never dealt with RIs before - WC female and Dizzy?

Then Dizzy dies – and instead of pointing the finger at the sick het – she says it’s odd because someone else got a sick snake from the same guy Dizzy came from.

According to one post on KS – Dizzy is dead after being sick for a couple of weeks and the het is now sick. So Jen starts treating the het with Dizzy’s left over syringes because they were the same weight (within 10 grams per her post) – but wait wasn’t Dizzy 1500 or 1200ish grams (depending on the post) and the het arrived below the advertised 1100 grams? Is my math off?

Anyway – the timeline on Jens posts are fairly consistent that Dizzy was sick well before the het - until someone on the BOI mentions that she can’t hold Wyatt responsible for her snake getting sick 10 plus days after arrival. At which point Jen goes back to check her records and sees she has a receipt from the vet on the 2nd and says that’s when she took the Het to the vet or something to that nature. But wait we know from the other posts that the vet didn’t see any animals on the second the vet tech just brought over the Baytril for Dizzy because the Tylan wasn’t working or was it you ordered extra doses? I guess it depends on which post you want to believe – but two pretty big contradictions if you ask me – not the kind that would easily slip ones mind.

There are in fact a few posts that either say or allude to the fact that Dizzy and/or the Het were taken to the vet tests done, etc. but as far as I can tell by the receipts that Jen provided – no tests no visits just prescriptions given by the recommendation of the vet tech or the doctors consulted online through vets that really didn’t work with exotics. According to receipts I saw the only animal that had actually seen the vet was Angle well after Dizzy and Lola were dead. Also the snakes seem to interchange as far as what happened to who and when – for example there are references to Dizzys necropsy results – but it was Lola that was according to her post and timeline sent in for necropsy.

There were several other similar questionable statements, contradictions on timeline, events, quarantine procedures, new animals, racks, etc. that I haven’t even brought up because I’m pretty sure the point is made.

I’m not here to cause problems for Jen – I’m not discounting the possibility that the virus did come from Wyatt – but I realize that these medical professionals are basing their findings on what Jen gives them to go on – if this convoluted mess is what she is giving them – or a skewed version to fit her theory- then there is no way they can provide any conclusive information.

I am very sorry to Jen that you have to go through this. I don’t mean to sound like a bitch kicking you when you are down but I want to get to the bottom of the virus and if the facts aren’t there it makes the answers harder to come by.

:shrug01:
 
The thing about necropsies and the time from death to refrigeration is that it will not only affect what could have caused death but what did not. The necropsy can rule out various causes and while it may not be specific it can generally give a good enough idea of what caused the death that steps can be taken to prevent it in other snakes in a collection.

A lab should be familiar enough with fluid and bacteria buildups to be able to identify and nullify them on a gross necropsy and especially one one where cultures and bloodwork are done.

I think you vet may be a little lax on the need/usefulness of necropsies. Any info gained is helpful even if it rules OUT what we may have considered a cause of death.

tony, feel free to support sucmbags, there are many who do. There are many of us who won't do business with said supporters, heh heh heh , get it....supporters....LOL.

Or, find someone who's a good guy and give them your money.
 
Statement

First,
I want to apologize to Wyatt for one thing. I started this whole post because I wanted some info on somebody I was purchasing a snake from. The intent of the post was for him to have his name dragged throught he pig pen. I however was upset when the snake arrived via DHL and took an extra day to arrive. Now because of what jen had posted I paid extra close attention to my snake. Because of this I was able to catch him when he bubbled and wheezed with in the week he had arrived. I took him to Dr. Stahl in Vienna, Va. Now I would like to say there were never any tests done to find out what he had. It was also said by Scott Stahl that disease/sickness like this does not come due to shipping but the snake was shipped that way. As far as treatment, we just went with the wheezing and the bubbling and he prescribed Baytril and Fortaz. That snake is now healthy however two others that were in the Quarantine room got sick. I did not take them to see Scott Stahl just had my local vet refill the baytril. I have dosed them accordingly with weight and I have been soaking them regularly with the temp in the room a little warmer than usual. It seems everything is going away and now that I am happy with the situation I would like to say sorry for having your reputation get ruined due to my inquiry. Hope everything else turns out as well for everybody else. Thanks Mike
 
Hi Everyone. Point well taken. I'm not sure if I agree with the "scum bag" label. Jen's posts left me unsatisfied as to whether any of her issues were Wyatt's fault. When someone repeatedly demonstrates such a poor understanding of resp. illness, I can't really take their posts to heart.

That said, it's interesting to see that someone else bought a snake from Wyatt and it too has an RI. That being the case, I can't take a risk of bringing in a potentially sick animal.

Wilomn said:
tony, feel free to support sucmbags, there are many who do. There are many of us who won't do business with said supporters, heh heh heh , get it....supporters....LOL.

Or, find someone who's a good guy and give them your money.
Wes,

You've never spent a dime with me or anyone I know of, so quit acting like some "major player" and threatening me with a boycott.

The only place in our hobby I've ever heard of you is here, so I'm more inclined to believe your real hobby is the BOI, not reptiles.

That being said, your opinon is of little importance when I'm making a decision about who or who not to buy from. I tend to listen to those who have something meaningful to add to the conversation...not people who have nothing better to do than offer their opinion on every matter that comes along.

I come here to read facts, not your opinion on everything that comes up. Please, go get yourself a bug zapper and leave the message posting to people who have something useful to add.
 
Anthony -- My posts here were not made out of "ignorance" -- they were made based on the information being given to me by my veterinarians, and finally by my reptile vet's analysis of the necropsy and pathology results, as well as common sense and experience. He isn't basing his opinions on anything I'm telling him -- he's basing them on what he sees going on with the animals right in front of him, what he reads on the vet reports from the previous vet, and what he sees on the lab work. He has been conferring with multiple reptile veterinarians around the country, his fellow professors at the UW, and virologists/pathologists at national labs. He isn't just pulling this info out of his rear end -- it's the conclusion he's come to after adding the input from his colleagues.

I have shipped well over 100 animals, and while that may not compare to you or Wyatt, it is enough to know what works for me and what doesn't. The only time I ever completely sealed a box was the first time I shipped a snake -- and the boa died from asphyxiation. After that, I always provided two pencil-width air holes...and every single box has made it just fine, the animal was nice and toasty (or nice and cool if it was summer), and had plenty of oxygen. This tells me that air holes are the better choice.

You living in Missouri doesn't mean jack -- I live in Wisconsin. It was cool up here when the het clown was shipped, and she spent her delay in Detroit, Michigan -- also cold. She had no heat pack, so aside from being exposed to cool daytime temps, she had to endure cold nighttime temps as well.

You say I have a poor understanding of respiratory illness -- go ahead and tell that to my vet since that is where I get my information. This entire thing has been a battle to identify what the illness was -- hence the constant confusion and changing of treatments, opinions about transmission, etc.

Where did I get the Tylan? Tractor Supply company -- easy to obtain online. When the WC female came in sick, I asked Ron Billingsley what he uses to treat his imports when they are sick -- he said Tylan. I got the dose from an online website that lists various medications for ball pythons and the dosages. I bought the Tylan, it came in, I gave the WC female one dose, and she died. She didn't get treated because she didn't last long enough. I happened to still have it when Dizzy first showed symptoms, so I called my vet and he said it would be worth a try to start out with. They told me that if it was working, she would show improvement within 48 hours. Well, 3 days later, she was far worse, not better, so I called them and asked if we should try Baytril. My vet agreed, they set it aside for me to come pick up, but I didn't get out there, so Kari dropped it off at my house right before they closed. My house is directly behind the vet clinic, just on the other side of the train tracks. This is the route they take when they walk dogs that are boarding with them, so Kari just took a jog over here.

I have since stopped updating this thread. A lot has happened since then, and it is all summarized here:

blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=204825&blogID=336374504

It will continue to be updated. Considering that many, MANY well-known people in the ball python community have e-mailed me and agree with everything I have stated and everything my vet has stated, I am not sorry for posting here. I am no longer participating in this thread -- make up your own mind about Wyatt.
 
Forgot to address the discrepancy in Dizzy's weight. When I posted that she was 1500g on TSK forums, I had rounded up based on her last weight taken the day before on 9/5/07 (1400-something grams). This was an acceptable weight to breed at for me, so I commenced. As most animals do, she defecated twice before her next weight on 10/5/07. The weight on that date was the 1260g weight I gave my vet tech. Obviously, she was full of feces on weigh-day in September, and since she later released it, she was back to her actual weight.
 
Tosha, is this the KS post you're referring to?

http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=1409678,1409678&key=2007

I don't see how anything in here contradicts my timeline? Dizzy started getting sick, I called my vet to get the Baytril, and started treating her with it. She died on the 11th (I see now that my timeline is a day off because most of my posts on other forums were in the early morning hours on the 12th, and that is what I went back to to get the date). I didn't mention the Tylan treatment because my question was about the Baytril treatment being correct or not -- the Tylan didn't matter at that point.

This:

Now I'm freaking out because my het clown developed an RI too and I started treating her with the 3 remaining syringes (she's exactly the same weight, only about 10 grams different). She's gotten one dose so far and now she's getting worse.

...was in reference to using Dizzy's remaining doses to make Sahara's treatments closer together. Sahara had been getting one dose every 5 days like Dizzy, but after losing Diz, I posted this same question on 3 forums -- first on the Ask the Vet section on AHR, then on Fauna and KS later. On AHR, I was told by multiple members and Dr. Alan that it should have been every 48 hours, not every 5 days. So I used Dizzy's remaining syringes to give Sahara a new dose since her last one had been at the same time as Dizzy's -- 2 days prior. I was trying to get her onto the correct schedule -- but instead of getting better with this first closer treatment, she started getting worse. I figured I was able to use the syringes because at that point in time, they were pretty damn close to the same weight. Dizzy was 1260g on the 5th as previously mentioned, and I weighed her after she died -- she was much closer to 1100g at that point, which was only about 50g off from the het clown's weight. Remember that severe weight loss is one of the big symptoms of this virus -- all of the sick snakes have been dropping tons of weight despite not eating or defecating -- Sahara came in at 1050g, died at 802g. Lola was 3200g before getting sick, and died at 3100g after just days. Anyway, the weight similarity made me think I could use Dizzy's doses since they were so close -- I didn't remember that Dizzy's syringes were dosed out when she was still 1260g. That was a mistake on my part, but in retrospect it didn't hurt or make her any worse for the wear.

Does that clarify things for you?
 
ajc said:
Wes,

You've never spent a dime with me or anyone I know of, so quit acting like some "major player" and threatening me with a boycott.

He wasn't threatening you, he was just stating a fact. I am one of those people he speaks of that wouldn't buy from someone who knowingly supports a scumbag.

Anyone else care to add their name after mine so that this shmuck understands that we just don't talk the talk around here but that we actually walk the walk?

Anyone?
 
critical bill said:
He wasn't threatening you, he was just stating a fact. I am one of those people he speaks of that wouldn't buy from someone who knowingly supports a scumbag.

Anyone else care to add their name after mine so that this shmuck understands that we just don't talk the talk around here but that we actually walk the walk?

Anyone?


I will. Even though i'm across the pond, because scumbags can emigrate.
 
Just wanted to reply to Wes - in the cases where I had necropsies done, the gross necropsy was conclusive enough to the vet that he thought the *expense* of running further tests (sending out to a lab, as their office would have had to do at my expense) would not be worth it in either of those particular cases, though of course he asked if my husband wanted such tests run on the GTP. He advised that because of the length of time she had been dead, the particular type of bacteria that was the cause of the pneumonia would be difficult to determine, more or less letting me know that lab tests might or might not be conclusive, and that if I incurred the expense, it might not give me any answers. Just like most doctors will say about any procedure or test that could have varied results. He had already done me a favor by performing both necropsies on his own time after hours for no charge. The case of pneumonia did not look unusual to him, so he was really just trying to save me money since nothing pointed to an infectious disease, but did inform me of all options we could take.

You're absolutely right though, necropsies do a lot to rule out other possible causes of death, and they are definitely valuable. Just had to defend my vet, since I didn't explain my situation in the best detail. The necropsies he performed for me did not include lab testing.

But at this point, as little as I like the way Damion has acted, it doesn't look like we'll see any proof that the resistant RI that Jen's snakes have is related to the RI that Scramblermike's arrived with. Could be, but uncertain. But, it IS a fact that Wyatt sent a sick snake with an active RI to Mike at least, and that is of great concern on its own.
 
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