TW International Wyatt in Texas

[Dennis Hultman]

Jen's quarantine procedures are the best she can do given her living conditions.

Then it would be wise to limit the animals she brings into it.

Jen, This post is to just clarify a couple of points and really I just want to help you find out what is going on and would like you to consider a couple of points.
You have made numerous statements that the other animals are all/were well established animals and there were no problems. You posted pictures of Dizzy when she arrived the last week of July as well as your spider. Also, you posted pictures of the new girls you received in the beginning of August and of Misty you received closer to the end of August. Also within in the last month you have adopted out a couple of rescues that you brought in. Assuming that your statements are correct about the limited space you have to work with, all of these animals must have been put into the same room.

By October you had already already paired up the spider and were breeding for this season.
Jen, none of these animals should be considered established snakes in your collecting. I'm very sorry for the trouble you have now but it is a huge risk to move as fast you are with such limited space. You could have been looking at a total loss if it was something worse.

It was not in my collection because none had had it before she arrived and they would have shown symptoms; all had been established animals with 0 problems.

There is absolutely no way to know with all the animals coming and going in that room over the last few months.

So on a plastic/PVC surface (or even my carpet, even though my snakes are never in contact with my carpet), can one live for 7 months?

Dizzy was posted as a new girl on 07-27-2007, 09:38 PM
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102040

That was two months from September 28th.

 

[ToshaMc]

Unfortunately some virus' can live several years on a spec of dust - they can also live in hosts without the host being ill indefinitely - think about how many people that are carrying HIV but aren't "sick" - they can also lay dormant inside an animal for a long time before manifesting itself as an "illness". If this is an airborne virus it could be in your carpets, walls, wherever. If it were bacterial you could narrow it down - being that it is viral unless you can get more info on the nature of the virus and solid info on its lifespan - it's all speculation.

Since you are talking about a large group of animals that are all fairly new to your collection - at this point in time - you're not going to be able to conclusively know where it came from unless you have a variety of virus samples to test it against. You're also not going to know that it's completely gone. I would seriously think about sanitizing your entire snake room, if you have carpeting a steam clean might be in order as well. Keep all of your animals separated from one another and keep your temperatures up and consistent. Keep them feeding and de-stressed as best you can. Keep your fingers crossed that you knock it out this year so you can have a good next year. Remember that Novalsan is only viable as a cleaner/virucide for up to a week after being mixed with water.

For the future - use your room or your daughters room as a quarantine area - if you have to use a neighbor or friend. It will serve to reduce this kind of stress.

Good luck.

 

[Wyatt]

Confused

The het clown was full blown wheezing and gurgling on the first day -- .

But then in the same thread you state this.





The het clown had arrived on September 28th, ate 2 weaned rats, then was sick on the 2nd -- same day I got the Baytril for Dizzy, so I got enough for both. COLOR]

I am no expert either but I have dealt with an RI before so please tell me how this female het with this big bad virus was displaying these S/S so bad so quick ( as stated above by you )but yet still managed to feed twice and keep it down. Sorr once again, it does not ad up...

Wyatt

 

[Wyatt]

EMail from Sept 29, 2007

This the email I received on Sept 29, 2007 from Jennifer after she recieved the het,


From: "Jennifer Harrison" <[email protected]> Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
To: "TW Inter" <[email protected]>
Subject: Het Clown Female
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 21:55:39 -0500
Hi Wyatt -- Sorry, I forgot to call this morning. I had a busy day and it totally slipped my mind until just now. Not sure if it's too late, so I'm e-mailing instead of calling.

The female is doing well, she has no signs of RI at all, is very active, but I think she's still stressed as she's being really aggressive and biting at any movement in the room (while doing the tail wag too). Or this is just her personality showing. LOL! I was curious as to perhaps she was hungry and that's why she was being so evil, so dropped a small weaned rat in with her and immediately turned the light off and left the room. I peeked in there 5 minutes later, and she was in the middle of swallowing it. So she can't be too upset if she's willing to eat!

I'm really happy that that 3-day drama had a happy ending, and am really glad I chose to do business with you again. She's a beautiful snake in great condition, and I saved the pictures of her parents so I can properly choose a clown male to go with her based on her dad's looks. I thought I had one picked out, but now I was shown a different one and am having a tough time choosing. This project is huge for me this year, it's basically my stepping stone into serious breeding since last year was all dinking projects. I'm excited!

Thanks again!

~* Jen *~


And yet you say just now,

Originally Posted by JenHarrison
The het clown was full blown wheezing and gurgling on the first day -- .

What's up???? Are you even sure that the female Het that I produced and sent to you was even sick at all? Don't know just checking. I mean that is the email you sent me describing how she was doing.

Wyatt

 

[LakesideBoas]

I suppose...

I should clarify that I am talking about common viruses. The ones we are most likely to come in contact with in respect to our animals.

As far as quarantine or lack thereof, I agree with Dennis. There must be a way for you to really segregate anything new from the rest of your collection. I do not consider anything new to me as 'established' until they have been observed for a minimum of 3 months. Breeding will never occur until the following breeding season no matter who the animal is purchased from.

A well settled animal will always be a better candidate for breeding than one that really hasn't had time to adjust to it's surroundings.

 

[FREAKIE_FROG]

Jen I understand the frustration of having a sick animal that can be very frustrating I am just trying to get my mind around this whole thing.

In one post you say

The het clown had arrived on September 28th, ate 2 weaned rats, then was sick on the 2nd -- same day I got the Baytril for Dizzy, so I got enough for both.

And in another you say

I kept her in quarantine and kept her warm, checking her twice daily to watch for signs of illness after 3 days of being cold in a box with no air. She took 2 weaned rats for me 3 days after arrival, so I thought all was well and that she would be alright. But about a week later, she developed a BAD respiratory infection.

Now your telling me that

The het clown was full blown wheezing and gurgling on the first day.....so while I didn't notice any symptoms until the 4th day, that doesn't mean they weren't there.

So in one sentence you noticed symptoms (full blown wheezing and gurgling) the first day but then say that you didn't notice symptoms until the 4th day. So which was it? she was sick the first day? or on Oct 2nd when you got meds for your other snake and a week after noticing symptoms in an animal that was already in you collection? or a week after she ate which was Oct the 9th which is 10 days after already having to treat an established animal.

Not sure where you're getting that timeline. Dizzy got sick on the 29th -- started her on Tylan. No improvement by the 2nd, so started treating her with Baytril. The het clown had arrived on September 28th, ate 2 weaned rats, then was sick on the 2nd -- same day I got the Baytril for Dizzy, so I got enough for both.

I am getting my time line from your posts..just trying to understand. In the above post you say that the het got sick on the 2nd of October right? Which is 4 days after you say your other snake was already sick and being treated with one medication "Dizzy got sick on the 29th -- started her on Tylan. No improvement by the 2nd"

You said that

I kept her in quarantine and kept her warm, checking her twice daily to watch for signs of illness after 3 days of being cold in a box with no air. She took 2 weaned rats for me 3 days after arrival, so I thought all was well and that she would be alright. But about a week later, she developed a BAD respiratory infection.

So she arrive on the 28 of Sept. Three days later she ate so thats Oct the 2 but then you say in the above that about a week later "she developed a BAD respiratory infection." While also saying "The het clown was full blown wheezing and gurgling on the first day.....so while I didn't notice any symptoms until the 4th day, that doesn't mean they weren't there".
I think wheezing and gurgling would qualify as symptoms. I'm just trying to figure out when the animal was sick you have given three different dates two of them in the same sentence "The het clown was full blown wheezing and gurgling on the first day....." which the first day was the 28th then you go one to say "so while I didn't notice any symptoms until the 4th day, that doesn't mean they weren't there." Which was the 2nd.

You also said that this virus has a one to two day incubation period but didn't notice symptoms in the het until the 4th day. That 3 to 4 days after your other snake had already been sick.

I doubt that snakes are different from mammals in that each one has exactly the same immunity and viruses will just go right down the row. Have you not ever brought something home, like a cold, or the flu, and NOT been the first one to get it? I sure have. My daughter gets nailed with it before I do -- because her immune system isn't as strong as mine. And this is how it was explained to me -- that Dizzy and Lola didn't make it because they couldn't fight it as well as the hets are.

AAAAA now I see the established healthy animals had weaker immune systems than the hets that were already infected with it..Got ya.

 

[Wilomn]

While Jen does have much to answer for let's not forget that wyatt sent a snake that died quickly and we will have a full necropsy for it by tomorrow.

This may just be bad timing or it may be that Jen had one or two snakes that were simply more susseptable to this new virus. It may be that we will never know for sure but let's not let wyatt off because Jen made some mistakes. He is in NO way completely innocent here.

 

[LakesideBoas]

Just to play...

AAAAA now I see the established healthy animals had weaker immune systems than the hets that were already infected with it..Got ya.

Devil's advocate here for a sec. There used to be a very large population of Native Americans in Florida. They had never dealt with something as common to us as Influensa...

 

[FREAKIE_FROG]

While Jen does have much to answer for let's not forget that wyatt sent a snake that died quickly and we will have a full necropsy for it by tomorrow.

This may just be bad timing or it may be that Jen had one or two snakes that were simply more susseptable to this new virus. It may be that we will never know for sure but let's not let wyatt off because Jen made some mistakes. He is in NO way completely innocent here.

When did the het die. She is having the Necropsy done on Lola or dizzy I forget. Or did I misread?

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Unless I missed a post the snake Wyatt sent is still alive.

 

[FREAKIE_FROG]

Devil's advocate here for a sec. There used to be a very large population of Native Americans in Florida. They had never dealt with something as common to us as Influensa...

Influenza still to this day kills those with weaker immune systems.

 

[LakesideBoas]

Influenza still to this day kills those with weaker immune systems.

Then it is within the realm of possibility that this virus has the same effect on a reptile, correct?

 

[FREAKIE_FROG]

It may be that we will never know for sure but let's not let wyatt off because Jen made some mistakes. He is in NO way completely innocent here.

Why not let him off .....if we can't know for sure if Jens mistakes exposed her animals to this virus before Wyatts animals arrived or not she can't prove that it was his snake that transmitted it. You can suspect all day long but the truth is that we will never know for sure. So to pin the blame is harsh.

 

[FREAKIE_FROG]

Then it is within the realm of possibility that this virus has the same effect on a reptile, correct?

100% agree that an animal with an already lower or weaker immune system would be more likely to get it. Hence my saying that the ones died had a lower or weakened immune system prior to coming into contact with this virus. Her QT hasn't changed her collection has been exposed to all the same things so why then these two. If they were healthy like the rest of her collect why then are the rest of her collection not killing over.

Using your Native American analogy they would all be dieing. Why then just these two ???? They were even undergoing treatment. Where as the rest of her collection hasn't had so much as a culture done.

 

[LakesideBoas]

So to pin the blame is harsh.

Yes, it is. I am content to wait until Jen is able to post the necropsy and pathology results. We can not make an educated analysis without that information and anything we speculate before they are available simply muddies the waters further.

 

[FREAKIE_FROG]

Yes, it is. I am content to wait until Jen is able to post the necropsy and pathology results. We can not make an educated analysis without that information and anything we speculate before they are available simply muddies the waters further.

perfectly stated.

 

[LakesideBoas]

100% agree that an animal with an already lower or weaker immune system would be more likely to get it. Hence my saying that the ones died had a lower or weakened immune system prior to coming into contact with this virus. Her QT hasn't changed her collection has been exposed to all the same things so why then these two. If they were healthy like the rest of her collect why then are the rest of her collection not killing over.

There is no way to determine just how healthy any being's immune system is until they are exposed to a specific pathogen. What makes me sick may not give you the sniffles, so we are splitting hairs over semanitics which is really pointless.

Using your Native American analogy they would all be dieing. Why then just these two ???? They were even undergoing treatment. Where as the rest of her collection hasn't had so much as a culture done.

Have you even read anything about the decimation of the Native populations due, in some instances, by well-meaning missionaries passing out something as innocent as infected blankets?

I am not going to get into a pissing contest with you, I am just trying to point out that your suppositions have opposite real-world occurrences so we should wait to pass judgement until we have all the information available to us.

If you wonder why Jen had no cultures done on the rest of her collection, then ask her. That has no bearing on what you have previously been posting.

I'm not trying to be a dinkus to you, I was merely pointing out additional insight that you may have overlooked.

 

[LakesideBoas]

perfectly stated.

Well, Golly, you mean I got all self-rightiously indignant with you for absolutely no reason??

Well, shucks!

 

[FREAKIE_FROG]

Well, Golly, you mean I got all self-rightiously indignant with you for absolutely no reason??

Well, shucks!

LOL lets just wait and see how thing turn out..
Never know it could be two totally unrelated things that just happened in close time frame to each other

 

[LakesideBoas]

Sounds like a plan to me. I think we're on the same page, just different books!