Inquiry Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

[thamnophis123]

Hello all - I bought new born water snakes from Underground Reptiles this summer. They have developed a disease that vets have speculated is Snake Fungal Disease (SFD).

I have spent $185 testing one of the snakes for the disease. If you're not familiar with it, SFD is a contagious, potentially lethal fungal disease that is killing wild snakes, as well as captives. It has no known cure.

I have had others tell me they bought snakes from Underground Reptiles that died with symptoms similar to SFD. While my snake is being tested I would like to see if any of you have, or know of someone who has had snakes from Underground develop skin lesions, scabby, crusty bumps, swollen eyes, disfigured areas in the nose / lip area.

If so, photos would be great, descriptions would be good to have as well.

Thanks -

Joe Monahan

 

[Lucille]

I have had others tell me they bought snakes from Underground Reptiles that died with symptoms similar to SFD.

Please name the 'others' and show the vet paperwork with the vet's name that 'speculates' this disease.
Please realize that anonymous information from others, and anonymous speculation, will lead to requests for more specific information. That is only fair, as you have specifically named a company here and seem to be alleging a connection between your snakes' illness and the company.

 

[thamnophis123]

Here is the receipt from todays vet visit. I'll add a couple photos of the sick snakes below. I asked, and was told, they will provide more details, including the species of snake, in the full write up, which will include the lab report from the Dr who is formats in this disease at U. of Illinois.

 

[thamnophis123]

FYI, the Ophidiomyces - qPCR is the specific genetic test developed specifically to ID the snake fungus. The vet doing the test, and who my vet consulted with today is the top researcher in the country for this disease. Like the other emerging fungal diseases attacking bat, frog and salamander species, this fungus has the potential to do a huge amount of damage to wild and captive herps.

 

[Lucille]

Joe I'm sure you must have notified Underground, what did they say?
Please post the actual vet findings as soon as you have them.

 

[thamnophis123]

No, I have not notified Underground Reptiles. I spoke with a person who was at their facilities and told me she saw adult snakes in pretty bad shape. The babys she bought have shown signs of disease, SFD in my opinion. I'll see if she will contribute to this thread.

If a relatively big dealer is sending dangerously infected snakes all over the country its really a bigger deal than just good guy / bad guy. So I can see how some people may not want to get involved

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Name the person or get the person to name herself, please, and soon.

 

[bcr229]

I have had others tell me they bought snakes from Underground Reptiles that died with symptoms similar to SFD.

These people really need to come forward.

 

[tlmoon]

I've never heard of this disease before, but a quick google search is certainly concerning.

It looks from underground's site that their water snakes are WC, and this disease has been found in WC water snakes (as well as others). So it seems possible that a person could be be sent infected snakes.

I don't know enough to know if this is the sort of thing you take a chance with, with WC animals, or if it's something that could infect a whole collection that a seller should be monitoring for. I think there is a big difference between a rare and/or emerging disease that takes everyone by surprise, and a known issue that a seller knows about and sends out sick animals anyway. Obviously we don't know enough yet to ascertain that yet...it would be good if Underground responds either to the OP or here.

OP, I'm glad you're bringing this up since it could be a major problem if this disease breaks out all over and wreaks havoc. I'm sure you will get a lot of questions - most folks here try to be fair, and you may get a lot of questions and requests for evidence. Which is only fair, as Lucille pointed out. I really hope we don't end up with something like chytrid in frogs....not only is that awful, but it leads to a need for laws banning the sale of animals, and all that kind of stuff. Anyway, it will be interesting to see the discussion on this scary sounding issue.

And last but not least, I'm sorry for your poor snakes! Horrible to have them so ill. I hope there is a treatment?

 

[Its_JoeyHello]

Could you have the DVM copy his/her SOAP and post a photo? This would help a great deal. I am truly sorry about the snake and I hope nothing else in the collection is contaminated. Kind regards.

 

[Lucille]

No, I have not notified Underground Reptiles. I spoke with a person who was at their facilities and told me she saw adult snakes in pretty bad shape. The babys she bought have shown signs of disease, SFD in my opinion. I'll see if she will contribute to this thread.

If a relatively big dealer is sending dangerously infected snakes all over the country its really a bigger deal than just good guy / bad guy. So I can see how some people may not want to get involved

So far, all you have posted was a receipt with no actual veterinary information about the allegedly ill snake.
And if you suspected that Underground somehow had a connection in your snake's alleged illness, how on earth could you not let them know? To me, that knowledge would be of benefit to them and their snakes if they are unaware of this disease, and as a result maybe to everyone if these allegations are true, from some brief research, the disease is of concern but details are not widely known by many.
You have made some serious allegations and so far you have only shown a vet receipt, please back your allegations up today, you can have your vet fax you info. It would be good if you could request that these vets themselves come post here giving some insight into SFD.
I have sent Underground an email letting them know of this thread.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

To be fair, any time you buy a WC animal you're risking obtaining one with diseases or parasites. I'm not defending UR, just saying that there's a reason WC animals are substantially cheaper than CB. As someone else mentioned, this is apparently a disease that has been known to occur in wild water snakes; therefore, it should not be surprising that water snakes obtained in the wild may have this disease.

Am I saying it's right to be sold sick snakes? Not at all. But if I buy wild caught animals I do so knowing that they might need treatment and might not be in top notch health. That's just the way it is.

 

[tim brophy]

Looking forward to seeing those results, as I know you will post them as soon as they become available. Also, a photograph of the diseased snake would be useful to see. SFD is still somewhat unknown to many herpetoculturists. Thanks for posting this. If this does prove to be SFD, consequences will be considerable.

 

[tim brophy]

I now see the photos. Would also like to hear from those familiar with this disease. From what I have read, it is disastrous.

 

[BrooklynJoe]

Just wondering why iate there so many of you taking this thread out of context of which the OP has already stated his/her intent. IF you read you will learn intent, please contribute to the thread with questions. The OP has offered some viable information and is not going in the typical "BOI good/bad guy" banter that you all enjoy. I am simply seeking to be educated on something that can potentially be effecting hobbyist,breeders, keepers of all types of reptiles. Can we keep it there, this can something that effects Underground which they need to be made aware of or that they my simply ignore. That is besides the point, moving forward let's all get educated I don't care who is responsible. I about care who can educate adding valid input.

For the OP, is this something contagious, also how are the animals behaving ?

 

[thamnophis123]

Thank you! You are exactly right - This thread is way beyond good guy / bad guy. It isn't really even about Underground Reptiles. Its about a potential threat to our wild snakes, our captive snakes and our hobby as we understand it today.

For those who don't know, there are emerging fungal diseases that have hit salamander populations, frog populations, bat populations and now snake populations. The USFW has stopped instate trade in most salamander species in an effort to slow the spread of the deadly virus attacking that Family.

SFD has wiped out - 100% mortality - federally endangered massassauga populations in Illinois and has proven to be 40% fatal in small scale lab studies. It has no known cure.

Anyone buying, and especially selling snakes has to know what this disease looks like, or has to know if the wild caught animals (or their offspring) may have been exposed. And if we don't monitor ourselves, You can be pretty sure USFW will step in.

I've talked with Florida Fish and Conservation and they asked for any additional information I can gather. Which is why I posted here. We need to know where in the trade this disease is, and guard against it's spread.

So, if you have received animals from Underground - a elsewhere - that have developed anything like the symptoms shown in the photos I posted please post here or PM me.

Thank you -

Joe

Just wondering why iate there so many of you taking this thread out of context of which the OP has already stated his/her intent. IF you read you will learn intent, please contribute to the thread with questions. The OP has offered some viable information and is not going in the typical "BOI good/bad guy" banter that you all enjoy. I am simply seeking to be educated on something that can potentially be effecting hobbyist,breeders, keepers of all types of reptiles. Can we keep it there, this can something that effects Underground which they need to be made aware of or that they my simply ignore. That is besides the point, moving forward let's all get educated I don't care who is responsible. I about care who can educate adding valid input.

For the OP, is this something contagious, also how are the animals behaving ?

 

[Lucille]

I am simply seeking to be educated on something that can potentially be effecting hobbyist,breeders, keepers of all types of reptiles. Can we keep it there, this can something that effects Underground which they need to be made aware of or that they my simply ignore. That is besides the point

Early this morning, I sent a request to Matthew C. Allender, Clinical Assistant Professor, Comparative Biosciences College of Veterinary Medicine Research Affiliate, and asked him to come here and talk to us about this disease.
However, it is not besides the point to involve Underground, especially since they have been named here. Had the OP notified them earlier, they may have had more of a chance to investigate and if the situation warranted, stop shipping.

 

[Lucille]

We need to know where in the trade this disease is, and guard against it's spread.

So, if you have received animals from Underground -

However, you have not shown that Underground is involved. You should post your proofs after repeatedly calling their name. Where is the vet report?

 

[thamnophis123]

Dr Allender has a couple of papers out that explain what is known about the disease, much of it the result of work he and his lab have done. My snake's samples are at his lab as of today, they were shipped over night.

I hope I don't have to remind you that the BOI is not the center of the known universe. It seems maybe you have let that fact slip?

Attached is the receipt for the florida green water snakes I bought from Underground Reptiles this summer.

However, you have not shown that Underground is involved. You should post your proofs after repeatedly calling their name. Where is the vet report?

 

[bcr229]

Were the snakes outwardly healthy on arrival or did they show signs of the disease then?

If they were outwardly healthy how long did it take until symptoms appeared?