Inquiry Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

[tim brophy]

Having them on there website means nothing, I just recently ordered 6 items from EBAY. and they processed the order. Debited my PayPal account. 3 days later i received an email indicating that they only had one in stock. Advertising is one thing, Lets see if you could call them and place an order. That would be another thing.

Regardless, whether you like it or not, they have no legal obligation not to sell whatever they want unless the health authorities decide otherwise. You really should move on and get over it. Unless i am mistaken we are dealing with 1 snake that tested positive.

I dont know what UR is going to do about it, but unless you are in a position to take some legal action yourself, we really dont need to be notified with a screen shot, what they are selling unless it involves some legal issues.

After 33 pages on this matter, it is no longer a concern unless you are the recipient of a sick snake purchased by them. They will still continue to advertise on this site, as well as Kingsnake. Maybe not water snakes, but for sure other snakes of greater value.

That add was not from their website, Jerry Tresser, it was from an add on KS dated yesterday. A specific add for this specific species. Obviously Underground really are taking absolutely no precautions.

 

[tim brophy]

My, my, my. Aren't you the "touchy one".

BTW Never said they had a legal obligation to stop selling them.

~~~~

You are correct, of course. We all know that to be true. They have no legal obligation whatsoever not to sell water snakes. The obligation is ethical.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Your right Tim. When it comes to money, obligation of being ethical has produced a graveyard of complaints. As much as some may try to do the right thing, there are those who dont care,

 

[snakesareawesome]

Joe posted an update on facebook that the state sent someone over and no snakes in inventory showed signs of SFD. Personally, I still wouldn't take the risk .

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Very glad to hear that JOE, and this is the proper way it should be handled.

 

[Pasodama]

Joe posted an update on facebook that the state sent someone over and no snakes in inventory showed signs of SFD. Personally, I still wouldn't take the risk .

If this did actually happen, it is not the best case scenario but, at the least end, it's something.

....

 

[UndergroundReptiles]

Our company has held off on commenting on this matter until all of the details are in. I want it to be known that in no way do we believe this matter was ever handled properly. We also question the motivation behind how this was handled and reported. Let me start by first reiterating that Joe's order was placed with us on July 25. Meaning that this order was approximately 4 months old before any issue was ever raised. As is customary for orders placed with our company we followed up with Mr. Monahan with both a phone call and email, at which time no issue was reported. No issue was reported at any later date either. Mr. Monahan did not decide to contact us until after he had posted to Fauna, contacted the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service, the Florida Fish & Wildlife Service, other government agencies, social media platforms, and evidently universities for study. This is why I personally believe his actions were underhanded. Why would he not contact us at any point to let us know what was happening or to ask questions? Why, if he was concerned about such a deadly disease, and one that is highly contagious would he not notify us for the sake of our snakes, and thousands of other customers? Let me be clear as well. No snakes with any such symptoms were ever sold from our facility. I believe the manifestation of this disease originated with Mr. Monahan. Also please consider that given this disease's highly contagious nature it is highly unlikely that if it was here that several hundred more cases would have been reported. It is unlikely that with such a situation our company would not be devastatingly affected, and much of our own breeding stock. Aside from the financial aspect of this, why wouldn't he contact us, as a simple common courtesy so we could protect the animals we very much care about? The first contact Mr. Monahan made was only after the people of this forum encouraged him to do so, at the end of November. At which time he did not ask for a manger or myself, the owner, he told one of the employees who answered the phone that our snakes had SFD. That's it. Why wouldn't someone in that situation ask for management or the owner? It took myself and a manager reaching out to him before we got to speak to him directly, at which time his reaction was nothing more than to hurl personal insults. As I continue to state this seems to me to have all the makings of a more sinister plot. In light of this situation we have had customers and employees questioned about our facility, all of which have turned up nothing, and will continue to. We also had fish and wildlife conduct an impromptu investigation which showed that the facility has no such disease present and is operating properly. Throughout this period, and since our beginnings our company maintains the highest level of integrity and transparency. It is open to wholesale and retail customers at all times. We constantly are shooting videos, some of which are live videos, for customers to see what we do here and how. Again I want to appeal to simple logic here. We have been blessed to ship out many packages each week. This means we have sold a lot of snakes, both domestically and internationally. In water snakes alone we have sold hundreds, if not thousands. We supply many other large reptile and exotic animal companies, zoos and schools worldwide. If this disease was present here we would be talking about a monumental problem across the globe. Again, I go back to one of my early questions. Why would Mr. Monahan say nothing for months especially when this could have such a major impact on a hobby he loves? Why were his first calls to regulatory branches of our government? Below I attached a series of emails between him and Florida Fish & Wildlife and FWC's findings at our facility. If you are interested enough to completely read through the email chain, your conclusion will be obvious unless you are predisposed to an opinion that couldn't be changed no matter what. To those of you I say give us a chance to prove that we are not who you have been told we are. We are a bunch of folks who love animals and have made them our lives.

Rian Gittman


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Corteguera, Lex <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 3:08 PM
Subject: Baby Green Water Snakes
To: "Howard, Dorothy" <[email protected]>, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Cc: "Garzaniti, Jon" <[email protected]>, Rian Gittman <[email protected]>


Good Afternoon Dorothy & Mr. Joe Monahan,
Attached is the original complaint with pictures in reference 9 baby green water snakes ordered from Underground Reptiles in Deerfield Beach. The complaint # I generated is FWSA-16-OFF-11498.
Today I conducted an unannounced detailed inspection of Underground Reptiles’ facility. As part of my inspection I looked into numerous snake and other reptile enclosures. All of the animals appeared to be in good health. All of the enclosures had clean water provided for the animals. All of the enclosures were clean and had the proper substrate. I did not find any evidence of any snakes having white skin blisters, fungus, infected eyes, discoloration, swelling or other defects.
I received the initial complaint on 11-22-16 which states that the snakes were shipped on 7-25-16 and appeared to have arrived in general good health. I interviewed both the warehouse manager and the owner of Underground Reptiles separately. They both stated that Mr. Monahan contacted them in late November, 2016 in regards to the baby green water snakes in question. In the e-mail complaint it states that the snakes started to develop skin blisters on the dorsal side of their bodies within a week or so from arrival, which was back in late July.
I am not aware of any other recent complaints similar to this one. The warehouse manager stated that they sold hundreds of green water snakes during that season and probably thousands year round. The snakes in question were born in captivity from wild caught parents. In conclusion, my investigation in this matter did not reveal any violations. Please let me know if I can be of any further assistance. Thank you.


Inv. II Lex Corteguera
Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commission
Division of Law Enforcement
8535 Northlake Blvd.
West Palm Beach, FL 33412
(754)224-0218, Cell
(954)467-5975, Fax
[email protected]
BPCombo_Small

From: Howard, Dorothy
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2016 12:57 PM
To: Corteguera, Lex <[email protected]>
Cc: Garzaniti, Jon <[email protected]>
Subject: FW: Contact info

More information about Underground selling infected snakes.

From: Joe Monahan [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 11:57 AM
To: Howard, Dorothy <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Contact info

Hi Dorothy, Jave you heard of any follow up on this? Or is there someone I should contact regarding this? Just interested if anything has come from it. The more I hear from people who have bought from Underground, or from those who used to work there, the more concerned I get. Seems like a pretty bad place with little regard for the animals welfare or their customers rights.

Thank you -

Joe

On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 12:22 PM, Joe Monahan <[email protected]> wrote:
Thank you. I would be very interested to hear of any follow up - what the investigator found and thought might be done.
I wanted to mention that the fungus cant really be diagnosed locally. It doesn't culture well, among other issues.
Dr Allender at U of IL has devised a genetic test that his lab will run on samples collected. His lab was also helpful explaining to my vet the best way to collect samples and ship them t his lab.

Please be in touch!

Thanks again -

Joe

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Howard, Dorothy <[email protected]> wrote:
Thank you for sending this information. I have forwarded this out to the investigator in the region as well as my supervisors. Please let me know if there is anything else I can do.

Dorothy Howard
Captive Wildlife—Investigations
Division of Law Enforcement
Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commission
620 South Meridian Street
Tallahassee, FL 32399
phone: (850) - 488 - 6253
fax: (850) - 921 - 6283



From: Joe Monahan [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 9:41 AM
To: Howard, Dorothy <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Contact info

Hello - This is regarding the possible sale of wild caught snakes infected with Snake Fungal Disease by Underground Reptiles. This emerging disease has killed entire populations of federally protected massassaugas in Illinois and should be considered very dangerous to our wild as well as our captive herps. Thank you.

Joe Monahan
515-451-3881
711 V Ave
Boone, IA 50036

In July of this year I ordered 9 “baby green water snakes” from Underground Reptiles located in Deerfield Beach, FL. The animals were shipped Monday, July 25. They arrived in general good health, or so it appeared. Since I have kept Nerofia in captivity many times over the years I knew they had to stay warm and dry or else a fungus was likely to appear, initially on their ventral surface. So these snakes were set up - quarantined from other snakes - in plastic tupperware, drilled with plenty of ventilation holes and with a paper towel substrate. They had cardboard hides that could be desposed of when soiled. Their enclosres were cleaned as soon as they were soiled - washed and sanitized with a 20% bleach solution.Rinsed very well and paper towels replaced with clean ones. Small water dishes were available at all times. If water was spilled the paper towels were replaced with dry.

Within a week or so some of them started to deveop skin blisters on the dorsal side of their bodies. The small white blisters were different then the “moisture blisters” associated with Nerodia kept in damp conditions. They were feeding well at this time on frozen / thawed pink mice, 2 inch bluegills and occasionally live minnows and goldfish. Aware of the issue with the thiaminase found in goldfish and flat head minnows, these food items were only fed occasionally.

Over the course of just a couple days, one snake in particular developed a lot of blisters. They grew in size and became encrusted. The snake stopped feeding and died shortly there after. A photo of this snake is attached shortly before it’s death.

The other snakes would develop the white blisters, and occasionally seem to have an infected eye - swelling and a milky appearance were observed, noy unlike a snake preparing to shed. But the swelling was notworthy. I examined the snakes with swollen eyes to see if any had retained eyecaps after shedding, but none had. I also examoned sheds to make sure they were complete, including eye caps. Over the course on months I have examined every shed and have never found a missing eye cap.

Up until this time the snakes would seem to shed off the blisters and swollen eyes. But instead of improving, the symptoms seemed to reappear sooner after each shed, and get worse than the previous bought. Some shwed deformities of the scales around their eyes after shedding, showing permanent damage to the snakes.

About this time I decided to move the remaining snakes to a large (8x2x2) naturalistic enclosure. I thought that if I could give them a big enclosre that resembled their natural environment that they would be able to regulate their own behavior and maybe find the specific temperature and humidity they needed to get through this requiring problem. A photo of the enclosre is attached.

The snakes adapted quickly to the new enclosre and basically returned to their wild behavior. They fed freely on live fish (sword tails) along with pink mice, frozen blue gills and occasionally minnows. The routinely fed then basked while digesting. They had access to a “hot spot” of 115-120F and a UV lamp next to it. Their was a large basking area among the rocks with dried grasses for security and rock overhangs they coud easily retreat into.

About Nov 20 I noticed another of the snakes had a blue, swollen eye and some sort of encrusted area on its snout and around the eye. The other eye was clear (not blue) and not swollen.

I took this snake to the Iowa State Veterinary College for examination. It was generally agreed after consulting the web concerning Snake Fungal Disease (SFD_ that the snake was displaying symptoms very characteristic of this disease. The exotic animal vet at ISU got intouch with Dr Matt Allender at the U of Illinois who has developed considerable experise with this disease. He walked my vet through the prcedures to take samples and forward them to his lab. He too agreed the snake was showing symptoms of SFD. Test results (qPCR genetic analysis) should be accomplished this week. I will inform you of the results.

If you have questions, feel free to contact me.

Joe Monahan
711 V Ave
Boone, IA 50036
515-451-3881

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:33 AM, Howard, Dorothy <[email protected]> wrote:


Dorothy Howard
Captive Wildlife—Investigations
Division of Law Enforcement
Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commission
620 South Meridian Street
Tallahassee, FL 32399
phone: (850) - 488 - 6253
fax: (850) - 921 - 6283






---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Howard, Dorothy" <[email protected]>
To: "Smith, Kelly" <[email protected]>, "Wylie, Andrea" <[email protected]>, "Harrison, Tyler" <[email protected]>, "Corteguera, Lex" <[email protected]>, "Garzaniti, Jon" <[email protected]>
Cc:
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 14:50:28 +0000
Subject: Underground
Just thought you all should be aware of this. Received this complaint that Underground had shipped infected snakes to him.

Dorothy Howard
Captive Wildlife—Investigations
Division of Law Enforcement
Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commission
620 South Meridian Street
Tallahassee, FL 32399
phone: (850) - 488 - 6253
fax: (850) - 921 - 6283



From: Joe Monahan [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 9:41 AM
To: Howard, Dorothy <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Contact info

Hello - This is regarding the possible sale of wild caught snakes infected with Snake Fungal Disease by Underground Reptiles. This emerging disease has killed entire populations of federally protected massassaugas in Illinois and should be considered very dangerous to our wild as well as our captive herps. Thank you.

Joe Monahan
515-451-3881
711 V Ave
Boone, IA 50036

In July of this year I ordered 9 “baby green water snakes” from Underground Reptiles located in Deerfield Beach, FL. The animals were shipped Monday, July 25. They arrived in general good health, or so it appeared. Since I have kept Nerofia in captivity many times over the years I knew they had to stay warm and dry or else a fungus was likely to appear, initially on their ventral surface. So these snakes were set up - quarantined from other snakes - in plastic tupperware, drilled with plenty of ventilation holes and with a paper towel substrate. They had cardboard hides that could be desposed of when soiled. Their enclosres were cleaned as soon as they were soiled - washed and sanitized with a 20% bleach solution.Rinsed very well and paper towels replaced with clean ones. Small water dishes were available at all times. If water was spilled the paper towels were replaced with dry.

Within a week or so some of them started to deveop skin blisters on the dorsal side of their bodies. The small white blisters were different then the “moisture blisters” associated with Nerodia kept in damp conditions. They were feeding well at this time on frozen / thawed pink mice, 2 inch bluegills and occasionally live minnows and goldfish. Aware of the issue with the thiaminase found in goldfish and flat head minnows, these food items were only fed occasionally.

Over the course of just a couple days, one snake in particular developed a lot of blisters. They grew in size and became encrusted. The snake stopped feeding and died shortly there after. A photo of this snake is attached shortly before it’s death.

The other snakes would develop the white blisters, and occasionally seem to have an infected eye - swelling and a milky appearance were observed, noy unlike a snake preparing to shed. But the swelling was notworthy. I examined the snakes with swollen eyes to see if any had retained eyecaps after shedding, but none had. I also examoned sheds to make sure they were complete, including eye caps. Over the course on months I have examined every shed and have never found a missing eye cap.

Up until this time the snakes would seem to shed off the blisters and swollen eyes. But instead of improving, the symptoms seemed to reappear sooner after each shed, and get worse than the previous bought. Some shwed deformities of the scales around their eyes after shedding, showing permanent damage to the snakes.

About this time I decided to move the remaining snakes to a large (8x2x2) naturalistic enclosure. I thought that if I could give them a big enclosre that resembled their natural environment that they would be able to regulate their own behavior and maybe find the specific temperature and humidity they needed to get through this requiring problem. A photo of the enclosre is attached.

The snakes adapted quickly to the new enclosre and basically returned to their wild behavior. They fed freely on live fish (sword tails) along with pink mice, frozen blue gills and occasionally minnows. The routinely fed then basked while digesting. They had access to a “hot spot” of 115-120F and a UV lamp next to it. Their was a large basking area among the rocks with dried grasses for security and rock overhangs they coud easily retreat into.

About Nov 20 I noticed another of the snakes had a blue, swollen eye and some sort of encrusted area on its snout and around the eye. The other eye was clear (not blue) and not swollen.

I took this snake to the Iowa State Veterinary College for examination. It was generally agreed after consulting the web concerning Snake Fungal Disease (SFD_ that the snake was displaying symptoms very characteristic of this disease. The exotic animal vet at ISU got intouch with Dr Matt Allender at the U of Illinois who has developed considerable experise with this disease. He walked my vet through the prcedures to take samples and forward them to his lab. He too agreed the snake was showing symptoms of SFD. Test results (qPCR genetic analysis) should be accomplished this week. I will inform you of the results.

If you have questions, feel free to contact me.

Joe Monahan
711 V Ave
Boone, IA 50036
515-451-3881

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:33 AM, Howard, Dorothy <[email protected]> wrote:


Dorothy Howard
Captive Wildlife—Investigations
Division of Law Enforcement
Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commission
620 South Meridian Street
Tallahassee, FL 32399
phone: (850) - 488 - 6253
fax: (850) - 921 - 6283

 

[DavidBeard]

Rian raises some excellent points.

I see no empirical evidence that says the source of the SFD was from Underground. Joe's behavior and subsequent inability to maintain a professional attitude when questioned should speak monumentally if you ask me.

The whole thing reeks of fish, and not the good kind.

 

[akane]

I am not interested in joining a debate I know little about but I wanted to comment that the FB water snake group has continued to report snakes with bumps from underground reptiles, some put down all water snakes they received just in case, and there was talk of getting together pictures and individual names of buyers to send in that as far as I know have no connection to the person discussed in this thread. For that reason I do not consider this situation quite wrapped up yet. I do agree that if this were so deadly and widespread it wouldn't be argued about by a few people on a handful of online groups. Still I remain hesitant to order water snakes until reports stop appearing, the source is tracked down, or this is proven to be a different and more minor problem that is treatable on the occasional snake it seems to be happening to.

 

[tlmoon]

Thanks for posting, Rian. I'm glad no disease was found at your facility.

Several people have questioned Joe's motivation given his behavior here. It's great to bring up a concern, but the way he reacted to being asked questions was not very rational.

I don't doubt that his snakes have SFD, based on the test results. It's a reasonable hypothesis that the snakes came from UR with the infection, but not 100% since it can be carried in soils, cage decorations, etc. I personally would have to be pretty dang sure before calling in the authorities to go inspect someone's facility, but maybe that's just me. Since the snakes didn't arrive visibly sick, there is the possibility the infection came from somewhere else.

Still, the infection is out there and I hope these first few cases floating around aren't harbingers of more to come.

 

[Pasodama]

Just from this thread I have not seen the "smoking gun" that directly ties Joe's SFD infected water snake/s to Underground Reptiles. That is, nothing that 100% pinpoints SFD having originated from UR.

However, with Logan's water snakes having come from UR as well, and one (or two?) exhibiting rather similar symptoms, it left room to give me some pause.

A problem is that I would think more people would have said something if their water snakes, from UR, exhibited similar symptoms.
Then, even if some people did/do come forth, their "complaint" would have to be rather soon after receiving the snakes from UR.
Testing would also have to be done because there are other causes, than just SFD, for "bumps", abscesses, etc., in/on water snakes.

Having an investigative officer visually inspect UR's facility, & snakes/reptiles, does give some comfort in that nothing was found amiss.
That bit of comfort, however, is limited since no testing, etc., was done.
Still, as I mentioned earlier, it is, at the least end, something (to the positive).

All in all, I believe that I will remain guarded, for now, until some time goes by without anything further re. SFD tied with UR in some way.

~~~~

 

[Pork]

How is it that you allow this discussion to go on including mischaracterization of the original posters views and actions when he has apparently been banned? Isn't underground reptiles a significant financial supporter of this site? Is that why this blatantly unfair practice continues?

 

[Fangthane]

Isn't underground reptiles a significant financial supporter of this site? Is that why this blatantly unfair practice continues?

Not sure their $25/year subscription makes them "significant" in any way, but that isn't relevant. One person getting thrown off isn't going to make the train stop rolling. The OP's current inability to respond here ultimately comes down to choices he'd made. Any active member is free to post on any BOI thread, at any time they see fit.

 

[Pork]

You don't see that is unfair? Also sorts of attacks can take place without the accused able to represent themselves?

Not sure their $25/year subscription makes them "significant" in any way, but that isn't relevant. One person getting thrown off isn't going to make the train stop rolling. The OP's current inability to respond here ultimately comes down to choices he'd made. Any active member is free to post on any BOI thread, at any time they see fit.

 

[Pork]

The owner of underground reptiles was able to make all sorts of assertions and accusations. What purpose does the board of inquiry serve if it restricts the conversation? If they are not going to allow the accused to defend themselves and they certainly shouldn't allow the accusers to continue.

 

[Fangthane]

You don't see that is unfair? Also sorts of attacks can take place without the accused able to represent themselves?

I see it as a matter of causality. Like I'd said - Choices. Any given thread is bigger than any one participant. Underground basically did what anyone who's seen their history might expect them to do - deny any possibility that they're at fault. Maybe, somehow, no infected snakes came from their facility; or maybe they didn't waste all the time they've had to quietly remove anything from their stock that was overtly symptomatic, before any State agencies could show up.

I doubt the world will ever really know for sure just what their part is, with 100% surety. The OP's inability to post here doesn't really change any of that. Some of us will likely view this as yet another reason to avoid Underground like the proverbial plague; others are likely to latch on to the shadow of the doubt and not let this thread stand in their way of any future dealings. This is basically like any other BOI thread. The info's here; use it as you see fit.

 

[Pork]

You know the number one rule in journalism is that after the interviewee leaves, the interviewer never says another word. It's common sense really. If you're trying to get at the truth you never remove the accused's ability to respond to the accuser. If the BOI isn't interested in the truth, then why would anyone be interested in the BOI?

 

[Fangthane]

If the BOI isn't interested in the truth, then why would anyone be interested in the BOI?

While it may sometimes lack the capacity to get the whole truth, one would have to be an utter fool to think that that equates to lack of interest in truth. If the axe you're grinding doesn't allow you to appreciate what the BOI strives to do, why join the site just so you could post on this thread? Do you have something useful, insightful, or even vaguely relevant to this situation to ad; or are you just in the mood to complain about how this forum doesn't live up to all you think it should be?

 

[Logan256]

Just from this thread I have not seen the "smoking gun" that directly ties Joe's SFD infected water snake/s to Underground Reptiles. That is, nothing that 100% pinpoints SFD having originated from UR.

However, with Logan's water snakes having come from UR as well, and one (or two?) exhibiting rather similar symptoms, it left room to give me some pause.

A problem is that I would think more people would have said something if their water snakes, from UR, exhibited similar symptoms.
Then, even if some people did/do come forth, their "complaint" would have to be rather soon after receiving the snakes from UR.
Testing would also have to be done because there are other causes, than just SFD, for "bumps", abscesses, etc., in/on water snakes.

Having an investigative officer visually inspect UR's facility, & snakes/reptiles, does give some comfort in that nothing was found amiss.
That bit of comfort, however, is limited since no testing, etc., was done.
Still, as I mentioned earlier, it is, at the least end, something (to the positive).

All in all, I believe that I will remain guarded, for now, until some time goes by without anything further re. SFD tied with UR in some way.

~~~~

I haven't posted in this thread for a while, as I've had nothing constructive to say, but I have been following it. I'm glad to see that Underground has come forward to address the issue, and I'm also genuinely glad to hear that the inspection of their facility turned up no symptomatic animals. I've said before, but feel it's worth repeating, that I purchased two licorice black rat snakes that arrived in the same shipment as the CB baby water snake that is currently showing symptoms, and they both seem perfectly fine at this time. Still in quarantine for at least another month, but healthy and with no visible issues.

I still haven't gotten the qPCR test done on my water snakes to definitively diagnose them (I should have that next week), so take this with a grain of salt as my snakes are currently symptomatic but undiagnosed.

The only thing I can say for certain on this issue is that I purchased a total of four water snakes from Underground, and of those four, two are experiencing skin symptoms similar to the OP's animals that I can also say for certain (if it does turn out to be SFD or another infectious disease) did not originate with me. I have never seen these symptoms before, and out of my entire collection, they are the only ones showing any health issues. I also feel that it's worth mentioning that it took time for the symptoms to appear - when the snakes were shipped to me, they looked fine. If my own tests come back negative and this is a husbandry issue of some kind and I'm just badly missing the mark on appropriate care (as these are my first water snakes), I'll post that information here and take my licks without hesitation. The WC brown male has had a skin cytology performed so far that came back negative, and has been checked for parasites - which also came back negative.

I also said that I'd post more pictures if and when my CB baby brown water snake's bumps came back, and they have. She looks like she's about to go into another shed, and if the pattern repeats, she should clear up afterward. The WC male is also about to shed, so we'll see what happens with that one as well.

 

[tim brophy]

The one thing that has puzzled me in this entire thread is this. Just who really buys water snakes? In the herpetocultural community they are insignificant. A few keepers have an interest in them, as evidenced by this thread. but not too many. Not enough to account for the number Underground Reptiles sells. So who buys all of these inexpensive and very common snakes? I believe it is folks who keep snakes that are snake-eaters (e.g. king cobras, cribos, etc.). They use them as snake food. Can SFD be transmitted in this manner?