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Inquiry Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

I'm not defending UGR, but we've went from talking about whether or not a snake they shipped had SFD when it left their possession to accusing them of being part of an international wildlife crime ring. Before long someone is going to accuse them of causing global warming.
 
Like I said, my statement was definitely not general regarding if this genus is bred in captivity or not. I have kept this species before, I've seen many specimen, WC and CB, I've breed this species and so I guess I have the background for this statement. It's more than unlikely that the adult animals are CB. The first reason for this is the coloration. The vivid green adult animals from the wild have is nearly impossible to keep in captivity, even if the animals are kept outdoors and with a very good diet. The second reason is the business behavior of a company like this. Does anyone believe that mass animal traders would raise a species like this to sell them for the same price they are offering CH animals ? Like I said, it takes months/years to get them to adult size.
The chance that all those adult specimen they offer are CB is abysmal. That's all I wanted to point out. With the current listing in Annex II, Fish and Wildlife should be interested in offers like this too.

I'm not saying those aren't valid points and something to wonder about, but I think you are making some assumptions and then making a pretty serious allegation based on speculation. #1 assumption was that this species isn't CB or that UR wouldn't have access CB stock - that has been rebutted by a couple of posters. #2 is that you are assuming that the picture of the animal on their website is a picture of the actual animal they are selling. It's fairly well known I think, that the big online sellers often use stock photos and not pics of the individual animals for sale. So that is interesting about the bright green coloration, but again, do we know that the animals for sale even look that green?

I'm not trying to defend UR necessarily, but making an allegation that they are selling CITES Appendix II WC animals as CB is pretty serious. I would hope a person would have more than just some assumptions before making a charge like that.
 
I'm not saying those aren't valid points and something to wonder about, but I think you are making some assumptions and then making a pretty serious allegation based on speculation. #1 assumption was that this species isn't CB or that UR wouldn't have access CB stock - that has been rebutted by a couple of posters. #2 is that you are assuming that the picture of the animal on their website is a picture of the actual animal they are selling. It's fairly well known I think, that the big online sellers often use stock photos and not pics of the individual animals for sale. So that is interesting about the bright green coloration, but again, do we know that the animals for sale even look that green?

I'm not trying to defend UR necessarily, but making an allegation that they are selling CITES Appendix II WC animals as CB is pretty serious. I would hope a person would have more than just some assumptions before making a charge like that.

The mods are free to delete my posts. I really don't care. I'm just saying that the chance that all those animals are CB is very small.
 
The mods are free to delete my posts. I really don't care. I'm just saying that the chance that all those animals are CB is very small.

No, I'm sorry you are responsible for what you state. Posts will not be deleted.

But on your point.
From what I remember when UR had a thread here many years ago he posted
a lot of videos on his outdoor enclosures and breeding projects. I'm not 100 percent sure but I believe the species was covered then. I believe the videos might have been posted on his YouTube channel.
 
Dennis, i can tell you for a fact, i did visit Rians other facility years ago and he had a substantial collection of Abronia's. I cannot tell you which ones he was breeding at the time, but he certainly was in partnership with a few other herp enthusiasts who were very serious in breeding and not selling this species. The set up was elaborate.

Maybe we can put this to bed as it has gone well beyond a snake issue. Just allot of speculation, and unnecessary reasons for keeping this alive at 45 pages.
 
Dennis, i can tell you for a fact, i did visit Rians other facility years ago and he had a substantial collection of Abronia's. I cannot tell you which ones he was breeding at the time, but he certainly was in partnership with a few other herp enthusiasts who were very serious in breeding and not selling this species. The set up was elaborate.

Maybe we can put this to bed as it has gone well beyond a snake issue. Just allot of speculation, and unnecessary reasons for keeping this alive at 45 pages.

Before putting the Abronia graminea segment to bed, I want to mention that I have just watched a video that Rian had made in 2012.
In the video, Rian was showing Abronia graminea specimens and talking about his plans on breeding them (as part of Abronia breeding project).
With that, guess it can be said that Abronia graminea was one of the species that was a part of Rian's Abronia breeding project or, as of the time that the video was made (& those specimens shown), planned breeding.

~~~~
 
Those Abronia's that Rian maintained for his breeding were never nor the offspring available for sale through his retail operation. His facility was a rented area not near the store. This of course was several years ago. i dont know the demand or how far the husbandry has improved nor what additional rarer Abronia are being bred.

I do remember being impressed as the tanks were in a temperature controlled room, and set up very nicely which each Abronia kept separately. Beyond that i no longer have any knowledge if the Abronia project is still in existence or possibly he has moved on to other breeding projects. He also was breeding specific Tegu's.
 
Wild Caught water Snakes

Be an adult, If you buy a wild caught water snake.
Think of the conditions many water snakes are living in.
If you don't buy Captive bred YOU TAKE THE RISK !!
slamming the supplier is silly. Low price, lower quality.
If you test a nasty puddle at the end on a still end of a florida swamp it will be filled with issues. Mother nature takes care of sick snakes in her own way.
Hello...
 
Underground Reptiles and Snake Fungal Disease Update

Went through a lot of drama about this earlier, hope to keep it calm and fact based now. After receiving snakes from Underground Reptile that quickly displayed the lethal and untreatable Snake Fungal Disease (SFD) symptoms, I had them tested to confirm. This should be all documented here on the Board.

What is important is that while I was able to eliminate the external symptoms of the infection by providing the snakes with an extensive naturalistic enclosure that gave them ample opportunities to thermoregulate and ample UV exposure, they apparently continued to harbor the infection internally. It erupted months after external symptoms were gone and caused the death of the snake.

I have the necropsy report and lab analysis is pending publication.

Why is this important? Because as it turns out SFD is spreading like wild fire in our native snakes. Any business that is collecting wild snakes and selling them, or their babies is spreading this disease. It is extremely important that we don't continue to spread SFD. It is threatening entire populations of endangered snakes as well as captive collections.

If you have any valid questions I will be happy to provide information. But in the mean time, please do not buy animals fromany business that also sells wild caught animals!
 
I remember the earlier thread regarding this issue. I am not defending Underground or any other vendor selling WC, but could you post the necropsy report? I realize lab analysis is pending. Thanks in advance, your warning is heeded.
 
Update on Snake Fungal Disease (SFD)

I wanted to let people know there is an important update on this issue.

As you know, SFD is a contagious, deadly disease with no known cure. When I bought the 9 neonate Nerodia floridana from a Florida wholesaler, one developed symptoms of SFD within a week of arriving and died shortly afterwards. All were kept in sanitized containers individually, but all developed symptoms of the disease within the month.

I moved the snakes into a large, natural enclosure that allowed them to feel secure, regulate their own temperature (hot spot of 115F) and a good UV light. The snakes shed often, fed well and symptoms subsided, eventually disappearing.

At this point the remaining snakes looked perfectly healthy. But the disease apparently remained active internally. About 6 months after symptoms disappeared one snake suddenly showed symptoms again and was tested positive for SFD. It dies shortly afterward.

But here is the update: Another snake died suddenly showing no external signs of SFD. It was sick one day, dead the next. The snake was placed in the fridge and brought to the Iowa State University Vet med college diagnostic lab for a necropsy. (I am checking to see how much of the preliminary report I can release here, but will at the very least verify with a moderator). The snake was essentially being eaten up internally by SFD. This was verified by Dr Allendar at U of IL with both a qPCR and grown out.

Why is this a big deal? Basically, it means that we cant trust that any healthy appearing snake isn't dying of SFD. Since SFD is now being found all over the country in wild snakes it would make me strongly question whether it is safe to buy any snake from any dealer that also sells wild caught snakes.

My recently deceased snake appeared perfectly healthy - fat and happy - for months. I'm thinking it was October to March - 6 months - that it was outwardly healthy. So even an extended quarantine of more than 6 months may not be enough to ensure your not bring a snake with a contagious, lethal disease into your collection.

And some of the snakes from the original batch are still thriving. Are they resistant? Did they somehow not contract it? We don't know. Many people have told me to euthanize these remaining snakes and sterilize everything. Butt I'm taking the risk in order to learn what I can about this disease. I've spent lots of money on the $3.00 snakes in order to do so. And will certainly spend lots more.

The infected snakes have always been maintained in a strict quarantine - a separate room of their own, nothing exchanged, nothing comes out of their enclosure ever.

Also, a note about Underground Reptiles. While I personally would not buy from them as long as they are dealing with wild caught snakes, this subject is bigger than just them. There are dozens of dealers that deal with native herps, even pet store that will sell native snakes. All should be educated about the risk and all should immediately stop selling native animals and completely sanitize their entire facility, including any equipment, boots, gloves, water bowls, enclosures, etc..

And if you are a field herper please report any snake you see with SFD symptoms. Snap a photo if you can. Don't touch it! Sanitize your hands and equipment with 20% bleach solution.
 
What exactly is the "update"? I'm not trying to sound snarky, I'm just not seeing what's new in this info.
 
[...]

At this point the remaining snakes looked perfectly healthy. But the disease apparently remained active internally. About 6 months after symptoms disappeared one snake suddenly showed symptoms again and was tested positive for SFD. It dies shortly afterward.

But here is the update: Another snake died suddenly showing no external signs of SFD. It was sick one day, dead the next. The snake was placed in the fridge and brought to the Iowa State University Vet med college diagnostic lab for a necropsy. (I am checking to see how much of the preliminary report I can release here, but will at the very least verify with a moderator). The snake was essentially being eaten up internally by SFD. This was verified by Dr Allendar at U of IL with both a qPCR and grown out.

Why is this a big deal? Basically, it means that we cant trust that any healthy appearing snake isn't dying of SFD. Since SFD is now being found all over the country in wild snakes it would make me strongly question whether it is safe to buy any snake from any dealer that also sells wild caught snakes.

My recently deceased snake appeared perfectly healthy - fat and happy - for months. I'm thinking it was October to March - 6 months - that it was outwardly healthy. So even an extended quarantine of more than 6 months may not be enough to ensure your not bring a snake with a contagious, lethal disease into your collection.

[...]

Please do post the report from the vet when you're able, I for one am extremely interested in seeing it. What an insidious disease.
 
Here is the preliminary report that I can share. Please don't repost it elsewhere as it is not final, and the final report is awaiting publication.

The summary is in the "Comments" at the end of the document ...

Laboratory Diagnosis:
● Multisystemic fungal granulomas
● Lung
● Liver
● Kidney
● Nematodiasis

Comments:

● Over 60% of the lung parenchyma is effaced by these granulomas. Per a phone discussion with the owner, we will pursue both fungal culture, and, if possible, qPCR for Ophidiomyces ophiodiicola .
● I did not see any indication of chronic or previous skin infection of the head.
● I think the finding of nematodes is incidental. There may have been 2 species, one in the oral cavity and one in the
stomach.
● Please correlate clinically and contact the laboratory if further testing is desired or questions arise.
 

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I think it's an important point that you can purchase snakes that seem fine, but if they have been exposed you may find problems months later. This also means that by the time you figure it out, your entire collection may have been compromised. I have definitely become more selective about from where I allow anything inbound.
 
Posted here with permission from Joe, who has kept us up to date on the Facebook Snake Fungal Disease page. To summarize, all Nerodia floridana Joe purchased from Underground Reptiles are deceased. Symptoms subsided temporarily but the snakes changed their behavior and increased basking substantially. The snakes died suddenly. Possible organ failure is suspected, but no necropsy will be performed. Please read the discussion included in the screenshots for more information.

I will not be addressing questions for Joe here nor playing the middle man in conversation. This post is informational only to provide a conclusion for this thread. If you have questions for Joe, you may ask him directly on Facebook. I'm not sure he'll be back on the BOI.

This is the entire Facebook thread. I have overlapped comments so it's clear I did not modify or edit the conversation. The other folks commenting on the page work with SFD in wild snakes and are professionals in the field.
 

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