Bad Guy Underground Reptiles Use Caution...

[pch101]

Hello All, It has been a while. As some of you may know one of my focuses of interest in Herpetology is the genus Tiliqua (Blue Tongue Skinks), and while I have not been involved in any breeding projects for the last few years, I recently started working with Blue-tongues once again (only on a much smaller scale). Anyway, I occasionally check out listings here and on other websites. I came across one classified ad in the Skink section on Kingsnake that caused me some concern. It was posted on Friday 6-3-2011 by Underground Reptiles in Deerfield Beach, Florida. The listing was titled “Beautiful Eastern Blue Tongue Skinks! (Tiliqua S. Scincoides) 20 to 24 inches! Only $100!” See the screen shot below:

The problem with the listing is that these are not Eastern Blue-tongued Skinks (Tiliqua scincoides scincoides), but rather the undescribed Irian Jaya BTS (Tiliqua ssp.) which is imported here in huge numbers along with the Indonesian BTS (Tiliqua gigas). Unfortunately, the problem here does not seem to just a simple misidentification. However, it does seem to be a very convenient coincidence that the Eastern Blue-tongue (Tiliqua s. scincoides) is now a very rare and somewhat expensive find here in the USA. The only Australian BTS form that is available here in any significant numbers would be the Northern BTS (Tiliqua Scincoides intermedia). That being said, there are currently no Tiliqua scincoides forms available on KS, and all of the listings that KS has up at this time are for the two main imported Tiliqua BTS forms: the Irian Jaya BTS (Tiliqua ssp.) and the Indonesian BTS (Tiliqua gigas). Don’t get me wrong, The Eastern BTS is here in the US, and I know at least one breeder working with them, but they are very uncommon, and you generally need to be on a waiting list for babies. And then if you get any, they are always much more expensive.

I decided to give the seller the benefit of the doubt, and I sent them this reply that same day (Friday 6-3-2011) through the Kingsnake messaging system:

“Hello, I thought I should let you know that these skinks are not Eastern Blue Tongue Skinks (Tiliqua scincoides scincoides), but rather are the type from New Guinea referred to as the Irian Jaya Blue Tongue Skink (Tiliqua ssp.), and should also not be confused with the Indonesian BTS (Tiliqua gigas). The Irian Jaya BTS is currently not formerly described, and is not likely to be anytime in the future for reasons I can explain to you if you are interested. And if you are interested in any other information on this form, I would be happy to send you some. Anyway, I thought it would definitely be in your best interest (and that of your customers as well), to be made aware of this error. Thank you, James Wilson”

Unfortunately, they have chosen not to respond, which leads me to believe that they are either aware of the deception, or they just do not care. Neither one seems very good in my book. I guess it is possible that they just have not checked their email to seen my response, but who puts up a listing and then does not bother to check the responses for the first 2 days of the listing? It definitely seems a little odd at best.

I am still happy to explain any taxonomy in regard to the subject to the folks at Underground Reptiles or anyone else that has any questions.

 

[Amelanistic Orca]

I'd have to agree with you James! I know you know your stuff when it comes to BT's. I'd never even click on an ad with a company titled as such anyhow. Is the Mafia peddling reptiles now er what?

 

[KingBowser]

I purchased from frogs from them earlier in the year and was very pleased with their service and how they were packaged. They seem to be good guys in my book. They may simply be busy and haven't gotten back to you on the matter...

 

[KingBowser]

Blah...*some frogs, I meant!

 

[JordanAng420]

So they deserve a "Bad Guy" thread? What exactly did they do to earn that title? It is your assumption that they are intentionally misleading the public with the add if that is the reason...they haven't even responded to you yet!

You could have at least given THEM the benefit of the doubt and waited until you got a response.

Really, this should have been an "info" thread, I believe.

 

[farfrumugen]

ive met rian in person and have been in the shop before. he seemed like a very knowledgeable person and very personable. i know his expertise is more in snakes, so possibly he was mislead and was sold these animals as easterns an didnt know how to properly tell the difference. i applaud your attempt to help them understand and pass on your knowledge. maybe you will get an email response soon, as i feel there has not been enough time lapse to pass judgment.
adam jeffery

 

[[email protected]]

well, i have e-mailed them in response to some adds that they had and they have always replied quickly so perhaps they just have not replied to you as of yet.

mis-labeling is a problem with out a doubt. i am not down playing that at all., i am just going off of my own experiences. sometimes, i am not saying this is what is going on right now, the person who is selling the animal does not know that they are wrong so that when they are told they are wrong they are too embarrassed to admit they are wrong. IF that is the case then it is worst. i do not believe this is the case however.

i really just hope that this is just a time where they do not have the time and in the end it will be corrected.

 

[hhmoore]

I've had both good experiences and bad with Underground; but 2 out of the 3 times I dealt with them, I was unhappy. (Honestly, the only reason that there was a second time was that a member here - Michele Misurelli, aka South Dixie Dragons - gave them such rave reviews. Needless to say, the second transaction went well, leading to the third). I see a lot of positive things posted about Underground Reptiles, maybe I just got unlucky (twice)

 

[Morelia4life]

I hope this is just a mistake and not someone else once again trying to scam people.

 

[Skiploder]

I have no idea what BTS go for - rare or not. In order for this to really be a "scam" and worthy of a bad guy thread, the asking price would have to reflect the rarity of the misrepresented species. The fact that they are charging about $100 for these animals would lead me to believe that they have no idea how rare the animals they have misidentified are.

I see mislabeled and inaccurate postings on KS all the time. While it doesn't always necessarily mean the seller is a bad person, I would personally not do business with someone who can't accurately identify the animals they are trying to sell me - intentionally or not.

 

[MDC_Ophiuchus]

I see the same thing with African house snakes being sold, not just by Underground Reptiles, but by many others. Its frustrating to see animals you are passionate about being misrepresented. And it's equally difficult to determine whether the seller is merely ignorant of the matter. Sometimes, they are acutely aware of the difference and/or don't care.

On the flip side, people simply don't like being told they're wrong. From a business standpoint, I can somewhat understand that a complete stranger contacting them telling them one of their ads are wrong is not high priority (it should be, but sometimes they don't see it that way). The best thing is just be polite.

While perhaps not a "bad guy,' I see absolutely nothing wrong with spreading the word that the animals offered are not what they are advertised as. I do this with house snakes all the time. Is there a better location on Fauna where issues like this can be addressed or discussed?

 

[MDC_Ophiuchus]

I should also add that while my singular experience with Underground Reptiles was a decent one, I do not ever plan to do business with them again in the future. Not only do they have a history of misrepresenting some of the animals they sell, there are other business practices of theirs I do not agree with.

 

[KingBowser]

I do have to agree, however, that this bad guy thread is premature...considering this will always be on the BOI.

 

[maggie22195]

I do have to agree, however, that this bad guy thread is premature...considering this will always be on the BOI.

But, that doesn't mean that this thread will have a negative impact on Underground Reptiles, it will just give him the chance to clear things up. And if people are trying to do research on Underground reptiles then they will either see him clear things up in this thread or see him shy away from it. So if he chooses to change his posting and then consult us here then I would not give him the label of a "bad guy", honsetly it is all in his hands now. But just because somebody posts a "bad guy" thread (especially if it is premature) doesn't mean that they don't have the chance to clear it up (if it is a situation that can be fixed) or have a true "bad guy" thread.

But anyway I just hope he comes to clear it up, I have talked to him several times about purchasing geckos and snakes from him and he seems very nice and helpful.

 

[JordanAng420]

Underground Reptiles has been informed of this thread.

 

[KSprague]

Ive only had one dealing with underground reptiles so far and there was a slight mixup with the sex ratio of animals that were shipped to me, 4.2 instead of 2.4, but i called them up and they were really willing to fix the problem shipping out some more females for a reduced price. It would be nice to see the BTS add corrected though. Everytime ive talked with them on the phone i must say they have been very professional and helpful. At least in my experience so far they dont really deserve a bad guy thread.

 

[UndergroundReptiles]

I'm sorry to see that such a simple mixup has turned into a matter in which it is now being incinuated that we are somehow unteachable or deceptive. Neither of which are true. While going through our emails I did not come across any such emails that you say were written. This does not mean they were not written but on occasion we have had certain emails put into the junk/spam mail folder for unknown reasons. We are also currently having trouble both receiving and sending mail to yahoo accounts. We are also checking into that problem. I am curious why you did not contact me via fauna or by phone if you did not get an email response, especially if you were concerned that we were doing something wrong or indecent. As I am sure many of you know we are also a breeder of blue tongue skinks and have been so sucessfully for many years. This particular pair came from an imported shipment and were labled as eastern blue tongues. This is a common practice when it comes to animals received from importers or jobbers. Many animals are misidentified. I would love you to give me a call James and kindly explain difference or markers that we can identify to avoid mislableing in the future or perhaps even pm me with this information. Also I feel it is important to remember that in this vast hobby many people have their niche or specialize in their understanding of specific animals and species. Rather than disuading others from working with people who make mistakes we should feel at liberty and happy to try and teach fellow hobbyists about the animals we are passionate about in kind and humble way. Remember you win more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. I will definitely have the gentlemen who posted the ad immediately amend it and I do apologize for the confusion. I hope in the future, as corny as this sounds, we can all work together to benefit our businesses and this hobby. I must say that I have learned and gain an immense amount of knowledge and help from other hobbyists on this forumn and have also been able to help others as well. Thank you.

Ryan Borkan

 

[charleshanklin]

I'm sorry to see that such a simple mixup has turned into a matter in which it is now being incinuated that we are somehow unteachable or deceptive. Neither of which are true. While going through our emails I did not come across any such emails that you say were written. This does not mean they were not written but on occasion we have had certain emails put into the junk/spam mail folder for unknown reasons. We are also currently having trouble both receiving and sending mail to yahoo accounts. We are also checking into that problem. I am curious why you did not contact me via fauna or by phone if you did not get an email response, especially if you were concerned that we were doing something wrong or indecent. As I am sure many of you know we are also a breeder of blue tongue skinks and have been so sucessfully for many years. This particular pair came from an imported shipment and were labled as eastern blue tongues. This is a common practice when it comes to animals received from importers or jobbers. Many animals are misidentified. I would love you to give me a call James and kindly explain difference or markers that we can identify to avoid mislableing in the future or perhaps even pm me with this information. Also I feel it is important to remember that in this vast hobby many people have their niche or specialize in their understanding of specific animals and species. Rather than disuading others from working with people who make mistakes we should feel at liberty and happy to try and teach fellow hobbyists about the animals we are passionate about in kind and humble way. Remember you win more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. I will definitely have the gentlemen who posted the ad immediately amend it and I do apologize for the confusion. I hope in the future, as corny as this sounds, we can all work together to benefit our businesses and this hobby. I must say that I have learned and gain an immense amount of knowledge and help from other hobbyists on this forumn and have also been able to help others as well. Thank you.

Ryan Borkan

Sounds understandable. I've sold on KS for a while and I've noticed yahoo does seem to send emails from there into my junk folder as well.

To the OP, did you ever think about calling them and talking to someone on the phone before trashing them with a bad guy thread? Did you think that maybe they had a busy weekend and didn't get a chance to look through their emails yet?

 

[Focal]

If the OP is using yahoo then I'd put money that it was filtered out... but then again, if I had a business, I wouldn't leave my junk email unchecked. Most of the BG threads lately seem to be stemming from communication errors, in age when we are at the peak of networking and communication, lol.

 

[Gecko_Den]

I'm sorry to see that such a simple mixup has turned into a matter in which it is now being incinuated that we are somehow unteachable or deceptive. Neither of which are true. While going through our emails I did not come across any such emails that you say were written. This does not mean they were not written but on occasion we have had certain emails put into the junk/spam mail folder for unknown reasons. We are also currently having trouble both receiving and sending mail to yahoo accounts. We are also checking into that problem. I am curious why you did not contact me via fauna or by phone if you did not get an email response, especially if you were concerned that we were doing something wrong or indecent. As I am sure many of you know we are also a breeder of blue tongue skinks and have been so sucessfully for many years. This particular pair came from an imported shipment and were labled as eastern blue tongues. This is a common practice when it comes to animals received from importers or jobbers. Many animals are misidentified. I would love you to give me a call James and kindly explain difference or markers that we can identify to avoid mislableing in the future or perhaps even pm me with this information. Also I feel it is important to remember that in this vast hobby many people have their niche or specialize in their understanding of specific animals and species. Rather than disuading others from working with people who make mistakes we should feel at liberty and happy to try and teach fellow hobbyists about the animals we are passionate about in kind and humble way. Remember you win more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. I will definitely have the gentlemen who posted the ad immediately amend it and I do apologize for the confusion. I hope in the future, as corny as this sounds, we can all work together to benefit our businesses and this hobby. I must say that I have learned and gain an immense amount of knowledge and help from other hobbyists on this forumn and have also been able to help others as well. Thank you.

Ryan Borkan

Who is Ryan Borkan?
Rian Gittman is listed as the screen name Underground Reptiles...