Bad Guy UndergroundReptiles, Deerfield.

[brd7666]

Jerry funny how you seem to think you know everything that happened when in fact you dont. I personnally spoke to Rian and he said to me he did not even know what had happened on YOUTUBE he was only going on what someone at the store had told him. There was no Hacking or slandering on Daniels part. Daniel has purchased many chameleons from many pet stores including underground. He has also received many care sheets filled with misinformation on how to care for chameleons. He has done research beyond his years on proper care of them and knows more about how to care for them more then most pet stores who dont know how they should truly be cared for. I know I have seen them die after being cared for just like the care sheets say.
He saw a wrong tried to make it right. He settled his issue with them yet you seem to continue to want to continue this bashing and posting of inorrect information.
Hacking, thats a serious charge do you not think Youtube would have something to say about that. I am proud that Danny stood up for what he believed. Daniel is my son and like a man he spoke to Rian and took responsibility for his actions trust me you only know part of the story, they are not blameless on how the emails were handeled. I have read them all.
Financial restitution for what emails or a posting on youtube get your facts straight not from what you think you know or what somebody told you. Thats all Daniel did nothing more.

I highlighted part of your quote. I think it is a shame that you would make a comment like that. I would say we have some questionable parenting going on here. Standing up for what you believe in is one thing, and going about it is another. With your attitude, I am sure we will all be looking at your son's mug shot some day.

 

[LauraB]

http://www.chameleonforums.com/please-save-them-39558/
by Danny /aka "Lizardlover"
"Went to pick up some roaches today since my colony is running low and came across some melleri that were just imported. They are not in the best shape but are good for imports, they are juveniles, and won't last long the way they are currently being kept. They are $85, $150 a pair, I really wish I had the space, or money to pick up one of these guys but I just dont have the money right now.
The "fischers" (K.multituberculata) are not doing too bad to be honest."

http://www.chameleonforums.com/i-am-so-sad-39669/
by Stefan/aka "CleaTheChameleon" - 13 years old.
Evidently he went to Underground after Daniel's initial post and started his own "campaign" along with Danny, sent the emails, etc.
This thread is now closed.

Young caring herpers? Yes. A tad overzealous? Yes. Criminals? No.
I do think they both should volunteer their time as suggested and lend a hand in the store - both a learning experience for the boys and helping the herps they care about at the same time. A win-win for all.

 

[0319]

Brian, do you know what my sons involvement was no. Did you investigate what he did again no. My sons involvement consisted of a few emails a post on the forums that Laura posted and a comment on youtube. Thats it. The parties involved worked independant of each other not together as has been implied. Are others involved possibly, Did some Hack ,I cannot speak for them. Did you see my sons emails no. I did, was someone else abusive, cannot speak for them. Danny took responsibility for his and his actions alone not those of others who may have been involved. So yes I am proud of him. Did he learn a lesson yes has he suffered consequences again yes did he slander hack or harrass by phone no he didnt but others may have. He tried to end it by email aand was called a coward. He spoke with Rian and resolved their differencesso yes I am proud of him. Is he overzealous yes a criminal far from it

 

[SynPlus]

"They proceeded to continue their rants and questioned are expertise. They began sending us insulting and vulgar comments, as well as posting comments on youtube as well. We finally decided to tolerate no more after repeated emails, phone calls, hacking and spamming our youtube accounts and now this fauna thread"

If in fact and you are right I cannot say for sure but accept the information provided that the passwords on YOUTUBE were in fact hacked then the intent is a little bit more serious then the care for a chameleon.....

I am still waiting for the proof of this. Notice how they said hacking the youtube account and now this fauna thread!! I think it's quite obvious either:
A. They do not know what hacking is.
or
B. They need to choose their words more wisely so they do not say one thing and mean anoter.

 

[0319]

Be careful of the accussations that are continuing to be made and who they are made against as written words become public record. I will no longer respond. Ryan and Rian glad our issue has been resolved and I wish you nothing but the best in your buisness and other endeavors

 

[Utta]

I am still waiting for the proof of this. Notice how they said hacking the youtube account and now this fauna thread!! I think it's quite obvious either:
A. They do not know what hacking is.
or
B. They need to choose their words more wisely so they do not say one thing and mean anoter.

He forgot a comma. Now your just searching for stuff that isn't there. This issue has been resolved, let it fade.

 

[Southern Wolf]

I am 14, my father used to buy me a reptile a month from that place, I will say nothing further about what happened to those reptiles, but i still do own some of them, and I also own a chinese chipmunk from them, that is doing excellent, I apologized, I hope everyone can understand that i am not some delinquent. I wish that this could have just ended with the email, but It didnt, thats what happened happened, I apologized to Ryan, everything is cleared up, all I had left to do was defend myself against these alleged "hackings".

It didn't end with those emails because YOU decided to start this thread. YOU decided to throw more gas on the fire. And now YOU are running and not supplying the info requested because that fire is about to engulf you as well.

 

[Southern Wolf]

No-I am not the parent of either child. I met them once at Daytona. I have not helped them construct any emails. I will, however, defend anyone I think needs defending. If I see animals kept in sub-par conditions, I will go after people myself. ((DISCLAIMER-I HAVE NEVER BEEN TO UNDERGROUND REPTILES, I HAVE NOT DONE BUSINESS WITH THEM, AND FOR ALL I KNOW I COULD WALK INTO THE PLACE AND FIND IT THE PERFECT PALACE.)) I am a member of a forum with these two, and they are intelligent and well spoken. Education will do that for you. I can say that many of the posts in this thread are not well written by some posters far older then the kids. These kids care immensely for animals, as do I. This is out of control. Apologies have been made. All of you reading this are well aware of the crappy attitudes and "can do no wrong" people, and email and forum communication makes it easy to start wars. Customer Service, professionalism, and respect are as or more important to me than anything else. The BOI is the place to let people know what you find, who you have done good and bad business with, and it helps us all to make better decisions. Most of us only know one side. The emails were posted on a public forum. In a non internet world none of us would even be involved. My reputation is clean-so everyone go unwad your panties.

Thank you for answering my question

 

[Southern Wolf]

Brian, do you know what my sons involvement was no. Did you investigate what he did again no. My sons involvement consisted of a few emails a post on the forums that Laura posted and a comment on youtube. Thats it. The parties involved worked independant of each other not together as has been implied. Are others involved possibly, Did some Hack ,I cannot speak for them. Did you see my sons emails no. I did, was someone else abusive, cannot speak for them. Danny took responsibility for his and his actions alone not those of others who may have been involved. So yes I am proud of him. Did he learn a lesson yes has he suffered consequences again yes did he slander hack or harrass by phone no he didnt but others may have. He tried to end it by email aand was called a coward. He spoke with Rian and resolved their differencesso yes I am proud of him. Is he overzealous yes a criminal far from it

William.... I know this has come to an acceptable end with UGR.. but let me say this.

It does not matter who did the hacking, your son or this other kid. IF they both talked about it at some point, and made some sort of plans (even if it was just "what if" and the other kid went and did it... the law could always go after your son for conspiracy. I work in the law enforcement field... and I get to see this on a daily basis.

Get your son on the strait and narrow.

 

[KelliH]

Am I missing something? I have seen no evidence of any account hacking at all. Posting comments on You Tube is not the same as hacking, and making a post on the BOI about a business you feel is not professional nor doing right by the animals they are making money from is not unheard of. Exchanging emails with someone is not a crime either, so the threats of legal action seem rather silly! It's too bad that the emails in question are not going to be posted so that we could gain a better understanding of their correspondence.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Kelli... this is what I am basing my last post from

Since speaking to the parents, who only found out about this incident a day ago, or so they say, all harrassing emails have stopped, crank phone calls have ceased, no further youtube posts have been made, nor any hacking with posts containing private email excerpts from the boys and our email conversations have been made(which totaled over 180 posts and happened even after we changed our password twice).

Why would you change your passwords twice if you were not being hacked?

My point is the Feds like "conspiracy" charges. I see it everyday... and hacking is in the Feds back yard. The kids not to the point that he cant straghten up and fly right... because if he dont then there could be a jail cell with his name on it. Even if he's not smart enough to do the hack.. he could possibly get brought down on conspiracy

 

[KelliH]

I get it but we always ask for proof here, and thus far there has been none, from either side really. Kind of a pointless thread, eh?

 

[aleria]

I get it but we always ask for proof here, and thus far there has been none, from either side really. Kind of a pointless thread, eh?

I agree. I keep reading... and reading... and waiting for someone to actually post any proof of these allegations on either side. Instead I've seen nothing but people jumping in to scream of legal action and make more wild claims. This from some of those that usually won't say a word without the best possible proof. Just seems a little off.

 

[StrictlyExotics]

Personally, I would like to see the "proof" of hacking since that accusation keeps being thrown around by everyone. Just because someone HAD to change their password twice doesnt mean that anyones acct was hacked. Hacking is what happened to my PayPal acct two weeks ago, when someone ACTUALLY spent my money without MY authorization. Leaving a post on someones Youtube video doesnt constitute hacking.

 

[Iraqvet]

I agree. I keep reading... and reading... and waiting for someone to actually post any proof of these allegations on either side. Instead I've seen nothing but people jumping in to scream of legal action and make more wild claims. This from some of those that usually won't say a word without the best possible proof. Just seems a little off.

....I think anyone who talks about this being a "legal" issue is basing it all on he said/she said issues..Plus no one really knows the full story..No one knows what was said in the emails..For all we know,underground could have threatend the kids,which is illegal..Also they have no proof of loss of businness,or proof that these kids did infact "hijack" their youtube account..Again,no one knows the real facts as of yet..Until then,anyone who says they would take this to court,must like to waste money...Theres just isnt any facts to point it in a certain direction...Now dont get me wrong though...If these were my kids,they would still be standing..Their butts would hurt that mutch more worse if they sat down on them..

 

[tinmantribe5]

The only thing about this thread is if the "Plaintifs" got such bad service and qaulity of life and product,why were they consistantly buying&Visiting a Handfull of times during the month?Its like when we all go to the chain petstores that all start with a P.... or P.......
and yet we Gripe about service or whatever strikes us on that product yet we still keep going back Why? because their must be alot of good things at that store too! thats whe we go back!

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Well, I read some of the emails that were posted by one side.

This is what I have concluded from reading the other threads and this one.

The shop received in store some WC chams. The boys observed the animals on a couple of visits and disagreed with their setup and didn't like their condition.

In their own emails that they posted, they didn't simply ask questions. The emails were condescending and I would see how some might not react in a positive manner. The first response that I noted, it stated that the accuser was making a lot of assumptions and to come by the store and they would explain the care that they give. Their next response to a follow up email described their care, according to the post. In my opinion, the store could have tailored their response in a more professional manner but I was not on the receiving end of the first emails sent to them.

I can't state either way if the store does care for the animals in the manner that they state. I don't know them or their operation. I would note that unless I entered establishment that was obviously a horrid establishment (which apparently this location is not one of those) it would be very hard to gauge that they don't provide what they state. I have no knowledge if they are following up with the care they state they are giving or not.

I'm also not informed enough with the species to disagree with varying opinions on the subject of the care. However, I have seen enough imports to know the poor conditions of some when they come in. Which by the tone of the threads elsewhere seems to be one of the rallying points behind this.

If you go back through the other threads most everyone had their minds made up from the beginning and that because this is a "pet shop" and they received WC's that they aren't taking proper care of their animals. Add in a couple of visits in two weeks. Guessing here, that those visits were what, 20, 30 minutes or less?

We all know that many stores, particularly non reptile specific stores give bad advice and keep animals substandard to the prevailing information and knowledge of breeders and keepers. We would be here all day reporting such things nationwide instead of dealing with actual transactions.

Anyways, going back to the original post and complaint.

UndergroundReptiles, Deerfield.
I would just like to inform everybody how a conversation turned into something bad with underground reptiles. They claimed to be able to sex their mellers chameleons they have for sale on kingsnake.com, so I sent them an email asking them how this is possible. They did not like that I was challenging them I guess. They basically called me a coward, immature, and stupid, so horrible customer service from them. I have also bought chameleons in the past from them and not been given a refund when they have died. I dont know if this is the kind of stuff I should be posting here but I figured I needed to let people know. If you would like to see the full conversation (and Im allowed to post it) let me know. I really needed to get that information out. Almost every reptile I've bought from them died or had some sort of medical problem as well, I once bought a chameleon from them and brought it back when I had seen it has an abrasion on its leg, one of the employees thought he could "pop" what was on his leg and ended up breaking the chameleons leg, it died the next day.....This was all events that happened in the past, I own many chameleons and am quite successful with them, now and know better than to buy from them. They also threatened to call the cops on me for sending them e-mails and posting on their youtube channel about their business.

This is what I read according to the two of you that was sent to the store.

hello, I would like to inform you that you have some false advertisement on your add I have seen listed on kingsnake.com. T. melleri are only the 3rd largest species of chameleon, not the 1st, that would be C.parsonii. T. melleri require high amounts of water and large caging, the individuals I have seen are severely dehydrated and are showing signs of extreme stress. I also noticed another individual has a broken rostral, will a discount be given on this animal if it is purchased being that it is damaged?

I sent them another e-mail.

Hello, I would like to inquire about one of your Meller’s chameleons you have for sale. I noticed you had an individual that had an injury to its rostral, a discount will be given on this animal being that it acquired the injury in your shop’s care due to the stress of a small environment correct? I noticed when I saw the animal myself sometime last week that it was rubbing its rostrum against the wire mesh of its enclosure, bending it and damaging it. I also noticed that you claim to be able to sex T. melleri, please share your secrets, because in all my experience, and through the 17 species, including T. melleri that I have kept, no one that I have conversed with, including all the literature that I have researched on these chameleons is able to sex them just by looking at them. So I’m guessing that you either saw them copulating yourself, In which case I would like to purchase a gravid female, or you probed them and had the results analyzed, in which case you would probably have treated them for parasites, being that they are wild caught, if you had the funds to properly sex them, without seeing them copulate. I also noticed that one of your smaller specimens is severely dehydrated, these animals require copious amounts of water, so Im guessing that since they are properly taken care of by your store that this is being fixed immediately and was just from being in transit. Also, judging by your ad on kingsnake.com you claim that you T. melleri are the largest chameleons in the world. T. melleri are the 3rd largest species, so you must have some special strain that no one has ever heard of, or you are falsely advertising your animals. I am willing to take action for these animals because they are truly unique and don’t deserve to be in the hands of Pet-stores that don’t give a damn such as yours. I expect to see some changes in their health being that you are taking care of them properly, according to you, when I inquired on them last week. I also expect to hear a reply on how much of a discount I will receive on the individual that is exhibiting injuries to its rostral.

If I were to get one at a discounted price, (or free for the condition they are in) I would probably adopt it out to someone I know would be able to care of it properly.

Then it was stated by David that this is the email that was received from the store.
"Sadly this is an email i got today from one of the guys"

You just don't know what you are talking about come in and talk to me and I will explain why you are so wrong in your ASSUMPTIONS not your facts.

Then there was a comment that stated one you was going to email them back asking if you were wrong about misting and this was what was stated was received in return.

No you just don't know the facts.
"know more than you" how old are you 15?
we rain chamber the animals 3 times daily we mist them all day we hand feed them roaches and silkworms, the water in the cage is for enviornmental humidty not for drinking and the superworms are for moving stimuli to encourage eating you didn't ask like a man so you don't know, you act like a child so I'll treat you like one. I might have welcomed your help now I reject it because you are a condesending, arrogant fool.

Now, I didn't see the emails or what is claimed to be the emails about the sexing, but I have these from your own posts that helps form opinion of the exchanges going back and forth.

Would I have worded a response in such a way to a regular customer or potential customer, probably not. Is he right that you were condescending, Yes. You guys didn't just ask questions or offer advice. You were rude and antagonistic then wanted to purchase one of the animals at a discount or possible receive it for free. That was noway to offer sincere advice or try to acquire an animal. You could chalk that up to overzealous youth. Seems just about everyone posting after that blamed the shop for lack of customer service and ignored the contributions both you gave the situation. I tell you, I really got to shake my head at the person that stated to call PETA.

In the end, I think the both of you contributed to the bad customer service you believe you received. Personally, It is always great to see young people passionate in the hobby.

My only advice would be that you would get further with a little more tact when trying to help or acquire any animal or anything for that matter.

Lastly, and I'm not stating your statements are fact but for sake of argument, let's say they are and all your previous experiences did happen.
It would be a poor decision to still support a business by continually purchasing from them. You don't buy or rescue animals from such places. That just makes you part of the problem.

Unfortunately for this case of yours, you didn't prove the information in your original post. No evidence was provided about the previous experiences. It's not required to post evidence here but it most certainly is very important for the readers. In this thread were left with allegations with not much support and posts from other customers that received great service and animals. The readers can draw their own conclusions on what has been provided. IMO...

Good luck to all.

 

[Julirs]

Thank you Dennis-that was a well thought out post and makes more sense then any other. And Underground has certainly earned back my potential business through their handling of the situation. For the record, we chameleon people do get upset when we see animals in such poor conditions when they do not need to be (I DID NOT SEE THE MELLERS AT UNDERGROUND). My personal experience shows that even most "reptile stores" that do not normally keep chameleons keep them in pretty bad conditions. I know that Petstores do not plan on keeping animals long term as their business is to move stock, but chameleons don't fair well in the typical small glass aqaurium-type display cases pet stores will use. Nothing makes me cringle more then to see a huge male Veiled chameleon in a critter keeper. Dragons, snakes, geckos, lizards, etc. usually do OK in these display tanks, but the arboreal and stressy nature of chameleons cause them to go down hill quickly. So we go to the P and P stores, and freak as they set their customers up with 10 gallon tanks, wrong lighting, substrates, and water bowls. I do a fair share of rescue, and will politely talk to pet store owners about set ups, but am often met with the attitude that they are doing nothing wrong-I am sure many people run into this. Customers are usually relieved to know that the $200 bucks they spend is being spent correctly. I keep torts, turtles, ball pythons, geckos, beardies, etc...but nothing is even close to being as difficult as the chameleons when it comes to daily care, and the Mellers are the most sensitive of all, but get into your heart just a little more.
I am glad all is resolved, and that people are passionate about the animals they keep.

 

[Paul Kent]

I didnt read all of this thread, mainly because it got pointless after the first half...lol, and I dont know what the topic is at the moment but I thought Id throw my 20 cents in on Undergroung Reptiles, or at least my experience with them.

As far as Im concerned they're top notch. Maybe a little attitude here and there but honestly I think 20 years in the business (and dealing with stuff like this) can leave anyone a little crass. I bought a canary GTP from him a few years back. He mentioned that it was eating fine. After it arrived, and several feeding attempts later, I called him and asked what the problem might be concerning the feeding. I tried those things and nothing. The next call he offered to take it back. Keep in mind he never guaranteed feeding, but took it back anyways. Never questioned anything on my end. I sent it back and got my money back within a few days. You cant ask for better than that.

Now Ive never been to his shop and dont know much about the conditions there but the way I see it, anyone who cares that much about the customer service and I can bet inst a slouch on the husbandry end.

 

[Paul Kent]

Wow it must be late....

Last sentence should finish, "...customer service end, I can bet isn't a slouch on the husbandry end"