Upstate Exotics (BAD GUY)

[HerpVenue]

If you are referring about the thing with robyn, then do not even think about it. They edited half that post.

They edited half the post? I have an e-mail forwarded to me...not copied or pasted. FORWARDED. So why don't you post your version of both e-mails and your version of the IM? Thought not. I do NOT edit e-mnails before posting them. Unless it is to edit bad words or such. But then I make a note that I edited something.

From: "Dallas Quarles" [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Bcc:
Subject: Re: Message about: 5' CB FEMALE BOA
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 18:09:51 -0500
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Feb 2003 23:09:51.0877 (UTC) FILETIME=[2ABBDB50:01C2DDEC]


I am sorry, i referred to Robyn by accident. I was talking to another dealer
and that i talked to about this situation. I DID talk to robyn about some
buys that i wanted to make etc. i was having problems with another guy also
that sent me 3 snakes with sickness. i got confused who was who and we have
emailed eachother recently.
Furthermore, i have NOT lied to you. i have talked to various people about
both of these instances. i printed out the AIM message when we talked so
dont try to cop out of this. i have it from the AIM copy and my emails. you
cant change your mind, it does not work like that. You made a deal a so
stick to it. the snakes are not healthy. regardless one when gurantees
health OR satisfaction that is what i want. if you want to play games then i
will post how you have IBD on kingsnake and then people can know the truth.
no one wants to buy snakes like that. you are not gonna rip me off for $400.
it is on print that you told me to send the snakes back. also, i will
complain to kingsnake because this is pathetic. no more games, do the right
thing or i am not gonna play around anymore. i am shipping them out tomorrow
cold or not to get this over with. you will have them friday and then you
will paypal me the cash understand? oh by the way, i have your snakes
jerking all around and all that on tape. if you do not think that is proof
then you are a lunatic plain and simple. nuff said, they are going to your
tomorrow.

Dallas

want me to fax you a report of the emails and AIM you sent me?
>
>I just spoke with Robyn over at Pro Exotics. He explained to me that you
>and him had never spoken about my snakes and especially not about them
>having this "mysterious" IBD all of a sudden. If you would like me to take
>the snakes back, I need a vet report faxed to me tomorrow. I have spoken
>to a few people regarding this and it is the only way I can refund you your
>money, especially now, since I was lied to.
>
>If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact me.
>
>Sincerely
>
>Upstate Exotics
>Sal & Alison Tornambene
>P.O. Box 119
>Cossayuna, NY 12823
>518-692-3101
>1-866-PETS-499
>http://www.UpstateExotics.com
>[email protected]
>AOL Screen Name: UpstateExotics

Dqreps (8:06:26 PM): i recieved the snakes yesterday, the four baby boas and they all appeard fine except being a little chilled, i did not look them over a lot, i did not have time. then tonight i come home and....
Dqreps (8:06:46 PM): i looked through all the racks at the four boas to see how they were doing and i noticed....
Dqreps (8:07:14 PM): one of the males was jerking/shaking, like he has IBD or something. i called.....
UpstateExotics (8:07:18 PM): hmmm
Dqreps (8:07:23 PM): robyn from pro exotics and he said.....
Dqreps (8:07:31 PM): he is a freind, he said..
Dqreps (8:08:09 PM): that is might be IBD because the way it is jerking and all that. i checked the other three breifly but hurried the one with the probs away from the others......
Dqreps (8:09:19 PM): at any rate, i cant keep these, i cant take a chance at infecting the rest of the bunch, i am gonna go upstairs in a minute and check the others out throughly. i would like to return them monday though and get a refund under the circumstances. i like the boas VERY much but cant risk this......

i was rather drunk when i talked to you that night, (yeah
it is not illegal to drink). I cant remember everything we talked about.....However i do not remember saying
anything about robyn or the such except for ask robyn about IBD cause i know he is knowledgable."

So you say I/WE edited this stuff? Funny they all talk like you. They all spell like you. They structure their sentences like you. Three different stories. 1. Robyn is your friend. 2. You said his name by accident. 3. You do not remember saying his name but you do remember talking to him about IBD.

Here is a time line for you.
1. you wanted refund. You told him you have been talking to Robyn and he suggested IBD.
2. He checks out your story only to find it is false.
3. You rebutt by saying it was an accident.

Sorry but mentioning Robyn by name....then saying he is a friend of yours is not an accident.

Well, my customers do not spend all day on baords like this ok. This IS childish and they have better things to do, as i do also.

My customers come to this board. Not everyday mind you.....But they definately come to this baord.

And the idiots blamed it on the fact that i used someone for a reference trying to prove that i had some credibility to them in the beginning and they called them and harrased this well known person (whose name i will not mention to spare him the embarrasment)

getting on the phone to verify your "story" is not harrassing anyone.

Stardust, thanks for adding some helpful imput. I dont want anyone to take sides but to be objective, ritchie and some others are not and are getting off the topic severely

Objective. I am asking questions to both sides. Dallas...to you being objective means not pointing out holes in your story...and just pointing out holes in theirs.


Upstate vs. Gracie. I think upstate owes them at least a partial refund if she decides to keep the animal.

Gracie proved her side. I totally believe her.

Upstate Vs. Dallas. I think upon return of aforementioned animals...you are also entitled to a refund.
But as far as the rest of your story and how truthful you are. I would not trust you any further than I can throw you.
You threaten people.
You threaten to call your pretend lawyer.
You say nothing but bad words.
And then you have the gall to question them on their "profesionality"?

Being objective means seeing the big picture and asking the necessarry questions of both sides. To you being objective means I should only grill upstate and their minions and no one else. Sorry sir but that is not objective.

Just in case you missed my new found "objectivity" yes I think you should get a refund.

Also before you go threatening to post everywhere that their snakes have IBD....I sure hope y9ou can provide proof.

 

[Stardust]

I agree, grumble, with Ritchie, grumble grumble.
You did lie, you made a mistake in trying to obtain what you should have gotten from the beginning, a refund. Satisfaction garrenteed (SP)
What I was trying to say, ( sometime I wish I can write like Seamus) is that, what ever Upstate says about the things you did, doesn't matter, what you said afterward, doesn't matter, what does matter is you were not satisified and should have gotten a refund.
Because of your threats and lies, this thing got side tracked, people start picking apart what you say and the bottom line gets swept away.
Next time, if there is ever a next time, stick to the facts, the topic, do not make excuses, a buyer doesn't need to give references.
What you did was get hyped up in the side track. Forget all that, its non-sense, it is there to make you look bad and to stop people from looking at the real person they should be looking at.
Easy to do, and you are not the first one to do it.
I believe the email, skeptical on IM's as they can easily be edited.
Either way, bottom line, you were not satisfied.

 

[HerpVenue]

here here..
what she said.
just state the facts. do not come out calling everyone and their uncle's names. Do not threaten anyone. Do not pretend to have a lawyer. Do not threaten to post everywhere that their snakes have IBD unless you have proof. Do not state that you will "even" things out when you see them.

You are entitled to a refund. Bottom Line.

But your actions on this thread cost you lots of future customers.

 

[Stardust]

Update: Upstate has updated their terms. fyi

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

I noticed that in their terms they state

We use Styrofoam insulated boxes with 40-Hour heat packs and newspaper packing material. 24 hour live arrival guarantee. DOA's must be reported with pictures within 24 hours and reported via telephone, if there is no answer, please leave a message. You are responsible for any shipping costs incurred. NO EXCEPTIONS! If it falls on the weekend, please leave a message via phone and be sure to leave your name and telephone number and exact nature of them problem. Please do not wait longer than 24 hrs to report; otherwise we cannot honor your claim. In most instances animals will be replaced on DOA’s or credit will be issued towards your next shipment. No cash refund on freight costs. Claim must be filed with UPS or any Air carrier you use for any freight cost refund. We assume no liability for carrier loss or mishandling. NO guarantee on shipments sent to extreme temperatures. (Below 40 deg and above 90 deg)

What is that about? You are the shipper, you guarantee live arrival, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE for the shipping cost!!! NOT THE CUSTOMER!!. I use to have my terms read pretty much the same thing on the carrier loss and mishandling, but guess what you are still responsible as the carriers will not guarantee anything with perishbles or live animals. If you can not guarantee your shipments the correct way and to the fullest then YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE SHIPPING! Every time I turn around you guys are making yourself look worse and worse in my eyes (and a few others I would bet).

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

and another thing

You guys also state

We accept Money Orders, Cashier’s Checks and PayPal (3% fee added) . Personal Checks will be accepted with a 7-10 holding period until the check clears in good funds.

1 In case you are unaware of it, it is illegal to charge 3% or any charge to use paypal just as it is illegal to charge for accepting credit cards. Maybe you need to re-read the terms of paypal before you charge that fee.

 

[dqreps]

well...

I just typed a HUGE post and then i got disconnected, NICE!! anyway, i am not gonna sit here and type it ALL over again. i dont have that much time on my hand. i will address some things breifly though because you do need to let me reply and then can you just leave it at that and not debate anything anymore and we WILL stick to the main topic? deal?
OK, i am NOT liar. I never lied about what i said about robyn. i have already talked to him and cleared this up. yes, i was very drunk and that is because i did not plan on talking to them just emailing them. Then when they told me to IM it went from there. i had several dealings taking place and i was talking to robyn about them and was also conversing about the snakes with resp with several people. i was hammered and got them confused, so what? i told them i am sorry IF i made a mistake in the emails so that sould have taken care of that. Besides that i do not know what is edited and what is not except the obvious. You can edite emails and IM's i just tried it a while ago and did. If they forwarded them to you ritchie, that does not mean they did not edit them before does it. Actually please do not answer this, i am just voicing my side to you and do not want to argue this point anymore, deal?
Ritchie, you are speculating a lot bro. I DO have lawyers, i got taken for $1000 last year and had to get one, actually i have two. One of them got me custody of my son, i am a single dad. They are BOTH very good and are good to me. So please do not just go saying i do not have one, some do and some may lie, i do have one. I gave upstate exotics lawyers name and number and told them to contact him if they like. Things are underway, dont worry. They guy that i am using to take care of this particular instance is good but he will charge me fair amount depending on how much he has to do. This is a out of state case and entails more that means more money. i will spend 2-3 hundred dollars if it takes more than that i wont pursue it anymore. I did however get very educated to the subject as far as laws go in my last situation. A guys sent me snakes with a lot of probs all around and would not refund my money. It was a guy that used to be in the biz and then got out and decided to not take care of his animals anymore and screw me along the way. Point being, dont question me on the fact that i DO indeed have lawyers, no the laws etc. i have dealt with this and most people that have deal in this real in any amount of time has gotten taken at least to some piont. It is part of the game we play but it does not mean i am gonna lay down and take it, know what i mean? This is a cut-throut business, very much so, but that is the chance you take with dealing with people like upstate exotics. But like i said, that does not mean you should not pursue redemption.
So we have it settled that the lawyer thing is not a threat. Now on to the other stuff. I am not gonna get into detail with this cause I KNOW WHAT I KNOW and no one else here knows what i know, know what i mean? ah what the heck did i just say? At any rate, i do not just make idle threats. I dont work like that. I guess maybe i CAN be childish but to me that is not what it is. IT is just getting REALLY made and vengeful at someone that DOES indeed deserve it. We all go about it our own ways. I dont think anyone can say my way is wrong, it works for me. And i never have recieved any repurcussions. I hope anyone else does what works for them also in times like this. It is just plain wrong and i would hope any intelligent person would judge me for wanting justice. i have a 17 month kid to feed, cloth etc and to me it is like taking food off the table for him. Is that wrong? i dont think so and probably ever will. Anyway i cant discuss this topic in length but i do have some connections for things like this. If i did not, i suppose i would just have to lay down and die like most other people do. i feel fortunate that i do not.
To anyone that says i am NOT being proffessional. You are wrong. I am VERY proffessional when it comes to MY biz and MY customers. When it comes to scammers i show a different side i guess. Upstate exotics is in the proffession of ripping people off, i am in the proffesion of making MY customers happy. Point in fact (my opinion of course) I purchased from them, they should remain proffessional and courteous. I dont feel i am expected to remain that way when i have money STOLEN from me. This is where i draw the line and MR nice guy jumps to the other side. It is not MY place to remain proffessional as much as it is upstae exotics, that is obvious because they are the ones supplying business TO ME. I am giving biz to them so they should grateful for my purchase. i am not gonna be grateful for getting ripped off. Does this make any sence to anyone at all? probably not but to each his own and i have a right to feel the way i want. If some of you dont like me or agree with me, that is fine. that is your opinion and i RESPECT that just as you should my opinion as well. We are all different and unique and this what makes us seperate indiviuals.
I value my customers and they do me. But if what i said here keeps anyone from buying my animals, that is ludicrous. I got UPSET, OK VERY UPSET. But that does not mean i do not have quality animals, run a legit biz and honor my gurantees. That is in part what refs are for i guess. I have some very nice high end animals and i am not gonna lie, i hope i did not deter anyone from possibly purchasing some quality boas from me in the future. I DONT want someone to see a snake they like and look who is selling it and say "gee, that dallas is a real prick, i guess i will pass on that spectacular animal" i dont want that too happen and also do not think it would be fair. I am human and being human means we sometimes get upset and say things we should not etc etc etc right. Anyway if i did lose a potential customer because of this one isolated issue i would not leave any sleep over it because i would feel they were not even making an effort to give me the benefit of the doubt. Also, dont try to put yourself in my position unless you have been in my shoes.
Last but not least, i will not post everywhere that they have IBD but i WILL post everywhere that they sent me sick snakes and what it looked like it might be etc. I do not want this happening to anyone else and they have been down right rediculously rude and uncooperative.
Now, all i ask is that you do not go on about other stuff like emails, IM's, my language, my being proffessional, whatever. If you want to give me your thoughts or something, put them down because i never say i am always right but i am my own person and if someone offers CONSTRUCTIVE criticism i will be delighted to take it in but that does not mean i am gonna take advice or agree. That also means that you say whatever you say in a non-aggresive, NICE way without adding the extra little things that are gonna make one upset. One can state ones opinon without being so critical that you are really gonna piss someone off. CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG? Anyway, lets forget the arguements and get on with HERPING!

Thanks,
Dallas Quarles

 

[Stardust]

Health Guarantee:

We guarantee all animals healthy and eating. If there is a problem with a snake you MUST report it to us with 24-hours via telephone. A vet report is needed with a diagnosis of the sickness for a full refund of animals, less shipping costs. We will pay for shipping on sick animals to be returned to us.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't even think about that part Rob, I was looking at this new part. Good point tho.

 

[dqreps]

Yeah

I just noticed yesterday or the day before. It is funny that they had to wait all this time until they finally decided to pay shipping back for sick animals.

Dallas Quarles

 

[Stardust]

The terms should be honest

What Upstate terms should read:

We will ship at your expense and if you ask to pay the convenient way of paypal we will charge you for making it quick and easy.
We will not guarentee live arrival, we won't be home and the message machine doesn't show you called.
We have no satisfaction guarentee, unless you go to vet and pay to have them say something is wrong. Even then we do not like to give money back at all so just post on the BOI so we can argue it out and hurt my name even more.

Or simply: We guarentee never to give refunds.

 

[UpstateExotics1]

Ok....

1. Our shipping policies were not changed all of a sudden...read back in earlier posts and you will see dallas quoted them, I can also provide OLD emails we sent to other customers where our shipping policies are stated.

2. Here's the complete IM and I WILL post every single email and can FORWARD them b/c now to protect himself Dallas is using this "we edited them" excuse.

Dqreps (7:35:07 PM): Anyone there?
UpstateExotics (7:35:11 PM): yes
Dqreps (7:36:49 PM): this is dallas, i purchased 4 boas from you, remember, i recieved them yesterda?
Dqreps (7:37:23 PM): i was just gonna email you but i will copy and paste my problem here. there is a prob with one of the snakes.
Dqreps (7:37:29 PM): you there?
UpstateExotics (7:37:54 PM): sure what's up
Dqreps (7:38:22 PM): it is too much and will not let me do it.
UpstateExotics (7:38:30 PM): ok give me a call
UpstateExotics (7:38:34 PM): 1-866-738-7499
Dqreps (7:39:15 PM): i am at a freinds house, i cant call now, check your email and then i can call you when i gethome in about an hour but reply cause we will be on for a bit.
UpstateExotics (7:39:25 PM): ok
Dqreps (7:39:48 PM): i willl send it to your sales email now, thanks..
UpstateExotics (7:40:00 PM): no problem
Dqreps (7:41:08 PM): just sent it, check out and IM me.
UpstateExotics (7:41:14 PM): ok will do
Dqreps (7:41:31 PM): thanks
UpstateExotics (7:41:48 PM): welcome
Dqreps (7:57:37 PM): i got kicked off line. what do you think?
Auto response from UpstateExotics (7:57:37 PM): We must have stepped away and forgot to put a message on......We'll be back.
Dqreps (7:57:51 PM): hit me up as soon as you get back.
UpstateExotics (8:03:02 PM): i haven't received anything yet
Dqreps (8:04:10 PM): what? i sent it about 15 min ago?
Dqreps (8:04:15 PM): to your sales email
UpstateExotics (8:04:23 PM): let me check again
Dqreps (8:04:39 PM): if you get nothing, i can just type it down now, let me know.
UpstateExotics (8:04:44 PM): can you resend to [email protected]
UpstateExotics (8:04:59 PM): mail seems to go through faster on that email
Dqreps (8:05:40 PM): i already emailed it and did not save it, anyway the problems is this...
UpstateExotics (8:05:48 PM): ok
Dqreps (8:06:26 PM): i recieved the snakes yesterday, the four baby boas and they all appeard fine except being a little chilled, i did not look them over a lot, i did not have time. then tonight i come home and....
Dqreps (8:06:46 PM): i looked through all the racks at the four boas to see how they were doing and i noticed....
Dqreps (8:07:14 PM): one of the males was jerking/shaking, like he has IBD or something. i called.....
UpstateExotics (8:07:18 PM): hmmm
Dqreps (8:07:23 PM): robyn from pro exotics and he said.....
Dqreps (8:07:31 PM): he is a freind, he said..
Dqreps (8:08:09 PM): that is might be IBD because the way it is jerking and all that. i checked the other three breifly but hurried the one with the probs away from the others......
Dqreps (8:09:19 PM): at any rate, i cant keep these, i cant take a chance at infecting the rest of the bunch, i am gonna go upstairs in a minute and check the others out throughly. i would like to return them monday though and get a refund under the circumstances. i like the boas VERY much but cant risk this......
Dqreps (8:09:36 PM): i will cover shipping just send the $400 back.
Dqreps (8:09:48 PM): i am going to go check on the othersw now.
UpstateExotics (8:10:13 PM): give me one second, my phone is ringing
Dqreps (8:10:59 PM): this one is not really movng or anything, just kind of sitting there jerking. that really scares me. ok, i am gonna go check the others. let me know when you are back.
UpstateExotics (8:14:25 PM): what exactly did they say IBD was?
Dqreps (8:15:15 PM): i just looked at the other snakes and they all have it. this sucks. i think we whould split shipping. what it was? IBD, what do you mean?
UpstateExotics (8:15:33 PM): you said they have IBD what is that?
Dqreps (8:16:05 PM): IBD is bad and usually uncurable IF that is what they got. let me explain.
UpstateExotics (8:16:41 PM): but WHAT is IBD??
Dqreps (8:16:51 PM): i am gonna tell you, hold on.
Dqreps (8:17:00 PM): i am being IM from another guy to
Dqreps (8:17:06 PM): it is...
Dqreps (8:17:20 PM): inclusion body disease..... which is...
Dqreps (8:18:14 PM): the usual signs of infection in boas usually includes central nervous system disorders.....
Dqreps (8:18:18 PM): such as...
UpstateExotics (8:18:33 PM): dallas, what is your telephone number?
Dqreps (8:18:45 PM): paralysis, unable to right themselves whne being turned over, jerking, etc
UpstateExotics (8:19:12 PM): is it related to "star gazing"?
Dqreps (8:19:14 PM): i will be home at 9Am call me at 207-947-0233 ok
Dqreps (8:19:25 PM): no, just what i know
Dqreps (8:19:32 PM): i have seen it before and it is fatal
Dqreps (8:19:44 PM): they got it at the zoo i used to work at, call me
UpstateExotics (8:19:46 PM): I am going to have the breeder of these snakes call you
UpstateExotics (8:19:57 PM): are you at that number now?
Dqreps (8:20:28 PM): Thats cool if you want but i still have to return them monday so where do you want to go with this?
Dqreps (8:20:41 PM): i am not at that number now i will be home at that number at 9
UpstateExotics (8:21:01 PM): What number can he reach you at now?
Dqreps (8:21:56 PM): none, i am on the computer at a freinds house bro, i can be reached at 9 ok, no calls here
Dqreps (8:24:29 PM): so do you just want them shipped to you monday? this is between us because you sold me the snake, i dont want to talk to the guy you got it from. go ahead and talk to him yourself and go from there
Dqreps (8:24:38 PM): call him in the meantime until i get home.
UpstateExotics (8:24:57 PM): IBD also means they have an inability to strike or constrict....they constricted when eating here and also striked both my husband and I
Dqreps (8:25:07 PM): yes
Dqreps (8:25:12 PM): all the above and more
UpstateExotics (8:25:26 PM): I also need a copy of a report from your vet before I can take the snakes back
Dqreps (8:25:33 PM): not now, and they dont just catch unless something has happend
Dqreps (8:25:38 PM): you paying?
UpstateExotics (8:25:46 PM): I cannot just return 4 snakes on a word from another pet store
UpstateExotics (8:25:55 PM): I need a report faxed to be
Dqreps (8:25:56 PM): that is not how it works, i am not satisfied and you said customer satisfaction right
UpstateExotics (8:25:57 PM): to me
UpstateExotics (8:26:17 PM): correct....but if you are not satisfied due to some illness we need a vet report
Dqreps (8:26:27 PM): c'mon now, dont screw me. i cant aford that
Dqreps (8:26:31 PM): you gonna pay?
Dqreps (8:26:36 PM): for the vet
Dqreps (8:26:59 PM): i could have just lied and said i did not like them, i am being honest and hoping you are to
Dqreps (8:27:11 PM): i am not a pet shop either, a private collector, breeder
UpstateExotics (8:27:18 PM): a vet visit should be $35...if this is what they have then we will take the snakes back and include the vet visit up to $35
Dqreps (8:27:34 PM): i have many refs, talk to pro exotics, bob clark etc
UpstateExotics (8:27:39 PM): But you said that Robyn at Pro Exotics said this is what they have
Dqreps (8:27:44 PM): vets dont deal with reps here, dont have a clue
Dqreps (8:27:53 PM): who do i take it to then?
UpstateExotics (8:28:28 PM): Well, I cannot do anything unless I see a vet report. I'm not saying you're trying to screw us, but from a business stand point I need to see proof of this illness in order to take the snakes back.
Dqreps (8:28:31 PM): in the mean time what about the risk of infecting my animals, i am not exactly gonna stick them in my snake room where it is nice and cozy with my other boids.
UpstateExotics (8:29:08 PM): That's fine, put them in a seperate tank, in another room.
Dqreps (8:29:13 PM): No, you said customer satisfaction, you need to inform customers if you have stipulations, otherwise i would not buy
Dqreps (8:29:28 PM): i cant sit on these guys for a week?
UpstateExotics (8:29:55 PM): ANYONE would tell you the same...you can't just walk into a pet store, buy something, bring it home for 2 days, then try to return it for a full refund b/c you "say" it has a disease...you need a vet report
Dqreps (8:30:12 PM): do you know herps?
Dqreps (8:30:39 PM): i do, something is not right and i am not satisfied, i got screwed even if it is not intentional, you understand where i am coming from?
UpstateExotics (8:31:00 PM): and you don't need to sit on them for a week, you can bring them to a vet monday, have them fax me the diagnosis, and if this is the case, I will gladly take them back
Dqreps (8:31:12 PM): and no, anyone else would not tell me the same, i have had this happen before with well known breeders and had no probs.
Dqreps (8:31:38 PM): did you not read what i told you about vets here, go up and read please. they do not do herps, period
Dqreps (8:31:52 PM): AND i told you i am not available to take them to the vet
Dqreps (8:32:09 PM): and even if they could take a blood sampe you have to wait two weeks for a result
Dqreps (8:32:34 PM): in the meantime if it spreads to the rest of my animals, that creates serious probs on both ends, you undestand.
Dqreps (8:32:59 PM): you put me in a real rough situation here, i really cant do anything with them. i did no really expect for this to happen
UpstateExotics (8:33:05 PM): that is the best I can do Dallas....I cannot take 4 snakes back on your word, you are not a vet. I had a similar problem to this, when the animal was taken to a vet there was nothing wrong with it. That is the way we work it.
UpstateExotics (8:34:05 PM): Especially since the snakes were healthy, eating, and never showed ANY signs here. We would not ship snakes out that are sick.
Dqreps (8:34:12 PM): so if all my animals get it and you have a law suit on your hands, well, would it be worth all that when the results come back. then it comes back on you and that is trouble. you would think you want to avoid that. i cant have the possibily of all my animals getting sick.
Dqreps (8:34:47 PM): no, obviously they are not healthy. and if you think they are what is your problem with not taking them back? that would just mean i am not satisfied with them right.
UpstateExotics (8:34:50 PM): Correct, and I also want to avoid taking 4 snakes back that have nothing wrong with them since you will not take them to a vet.
Dqreps (8:35:15 PM): did you read anything i wrote about that, are you paying attention?
Dqreps (8:35:22 PM): about the vet
UpstateExotics (8:36:09 PM): well dallas, then as someone owning herps that is bad judgement on YOUR part, not having a vet around to care for them. What if there ever was an emergency and you needed a vet...then you would just let the animal die b/c there's no vet around?
UpstateExotics (8:37:43 PM): what I am asking is simple....you can bring the snakes to the vet, if they have a disease, then send them back, I will refund you the $400 + $35 for the vet visit.
Dqreps (8:59:39 PM): Hey, i got kicked off. i think i have a solution. when my freind got his boa checked for IBD it costs like $150 or so to have him checked out, blood drawn etc. i have a better and more reasonable idea
Dqreps (8:59:55 PM): i am gonna video tape it when i get home and express mail it to you monday
Dqreps (9:00:09 PM): you will see how they are shaking somewhat violently
Dqreps (9:00:52 PM): that will be all the proof yo need right? better than paying out the cazoo for a vet when you can see it with your own eyes. cool, can we agree to this at least?
Dqreps (9:01:56 PM): Call me at 9:30 if you wish, IM me back can you?
UpstateExotics (9:02:45 PM): I need a vet report....
Dqreps (9:03:52 PM): holy ****, you are paying for it right?
Dqreps (9:04:18 PM): no problem then i will find one somehow and you can pay the $150 or so for nothing plus my cash back, that is your choice.
Dqreps (9:04:38 PM): you will not do well at all in this business like this.
Dqreps (9:04:51 PM): a video shows proof, that is not my word, that is all you need, that is sad
Dqreps (9:06:39 PM): i need an answer, if you want the $150 vet bill, you are gonna pay for it right? that is surely not my responsibilty. please respond
Dqreps (9:18:28 PM): This is an outrage, now you cant even reply. CALL ME! tomorrow, i will call you if not. this is crazy. if this does not get taken care of by the recording which is all the evidence you need and more, ah forget it.
UpstateExotics (9:19:02 PM): i'm in the middle of feeding everyone while talking to you
UpstateExotics (9:21:47 PM): you know what dallas, just box them up and ship them back. Be sure to pack them properly with 40-hour heat packs. Upon arrival I will refund the money to you.
Dqreps (9:23:31 PM): just curious though, why would you not want to take them back if i was willing to send you a tape of them? i just want to know, i cant lie that one. i am happy you are willing to do this. I appreciate you not sticking it to me. people look forward to doing biz with someone that is upstanding and sympathetic because this is a cut thoat biz and only a hand full are decent, that is it. know what i mean?
UpstateExotics (9:27:32 PM): We just want you to be happy
Dqreps (9:28:21 PM): Well, i wish you did not make me blow half a fuse in the process. Give me your addy to send them to. i will ship UPS monday. Thanks....
UpstateExotics (9:28:53 PM): Upstate Exotics
61 LeMaire Way
Cossayuna, NY 12823
Dqreps (9:29:40 PM): phone?
UpstateExotics (9:29:48 PM): 518-692-3101
Dqreps (9:32:25 PM): do you want me to call you or are we cool?
Dqreps (9:32:39 PM): it really sucks, they are jerking all over and shaking and all that.
Dqreps (9:32:25 PM): do you want me to call you or are we cool?
Dqreps (9:32:39 PM): it really sucks, they are jerking all over and shaking and all that.
Dqreps (9:33:07 PM): poor little guys, talk to the guy you bought them from and let him know
UpstateExotics (9:34:04 PM): we're cool...just please box them and ship properly as it is cold here.
Dqreps (9:35:02 PM): No prob, i ship all the time. I pack well. look for them UPS tuesday, as long as the weather is holding up. let me know sunday night if it is too cold their. thanks..
UpstateExotics (9:38:31 PM): welcome
Dqreps (9:53:49 PM): Hey, got a question, you still there?
UpstateExotics (9:53:54 PM): yea what's up
Dqreps (9:54:24 PM): were you gonna send me a money order or paypal me the funds when you get the snakes?
UpstateExotics (9:54:30 PM): paypal
Dqreps (9:54:45 PM): the tuesday you recieve?
UpstateExotics (9:54:55 PM): yes, once we receive the snakes back
Dqreps (9:55:14 PM): Thanks and good night.
UpstateExotics (9:55:19 PM): night

2/28/03
Dqreps (12:56:24 PM): dead meat?
Dqreps (12:56:27 PM): i think so

3/01/03
Dqreps (2:49:16 AM): read your little post. i believe i told you i do not want these snakes infecting mine, yes. I also know that just because i said this does not mean they ARE with mine. Have not and will not be. so sorry, dont try to make me out to be the mindless wonders you are. like i said, the tape is in the mail.


So that's that....

QUOTE:
A. you bought and paid for snakes in advance
B. snakes arrived you found them slow and ok but cold.
C. Upon further inspection that evening, you found one to be jerky.
D. You immediately contacted Upstate, and explained what you are seeing and surmised what you thought it might be.
E. You asked for a refund.


Part C is where there's a problem....the snakes were ok when received, but suddenly, after the fact they were not. Part D....he didn't surmise.....he said Robyn did and he asked some guy that was IMing him was telling him what it is for sure.

Also I have to think Dallas is pretty smart that in less than a year for working FOR a vet he can care for them better than vets that go to school for years do....(sorry had to put my OPINION in).

ORIGINAL EMAIL WHEN SNAKES ARRIVED :

Hey just wanted to let you know i got the snakes with no probs. they were a little cool but they seem to be fine. thanks..
Dallas

ANOTHER EMAIL:
You are right about one thing only and i decided this before a while ago. i
will not return them now but when it is at least 40 degrees. that is it,
plain and simple. i am not gonna get ripped off by some punks that are new
to the industry.
you dont know jack about herps, that is obvious. especially since you had no
idea what IBD was when i asked you. i thought that was especially funny.
what was it you said "what is IBD?" yeah you are true herpers you are. also,
if you had any knowledge you would realize that my collection could not
infect these 4 snakes and cause any illness in a matter of 16hrs. give me a
break! what is your problems. if you dont want to be in the business of poor
customer service and ripping people off, you need to draw the line
somewhere. you have chosen the wrong side.
About Robyn, why are you bull****ting me about him? what does he have to do
with any of this? i was rather drunk when i talked to you that night, (yeah
it is not illegal to drink). I cant remember everything we talked about, i
only copied off the AIM when i got back on line and you agreed to return my
money upon the return of the snakes. However i do not remember saying
anything about robyn or the such except for ask robyn about IBD cause i know
he is knowledgable. If you took it the wrong way, sorry. you should have
done your homework on disease and such before you got into the next biz
recently i guess anyway and i would not have had to refer to him
which brings me to another point. what does that have to do with the fact
that i got sick snakes? call me a liar or not, which you are obviously
because you went back on your word of returning the snakes. let me see,
robyn has nothing to do with what you agreed to. you are wrong but i will go
along with you. if you were correct which you are not, so what? that means
that you do not do the refund as promised because of a reference i
supposedly used? that is a crock. that has NOTHING to do with the fact that
i got messed up herps.
You keep evading the question i have asked you many times over email and
AIM. i have this video i taped of the snakes shortly after their arrival.
just please humor and give me a respons on this ok. it shows how messed up
they are jerking and twitching all around. i show every one of them doing
this. i dont know, ibd, too cold when shipped, something has caused it. all
problems with us aside, unless you are trying to rip me off and not live up
to your gurantee, how is a video tape SHOWING what i told you about not good
enough? it would/will hold up in court, so why? also, please answer this, i
am never home but i can possibly have my girlfreind take the snakes to the
vet. now, i told you it costs around $150 to get the proper tests done and
then another two weekes to get the results back. maybe more maybe less, that
is just what it cost my freind when he thought his had it. are you gonna pay
for this? surely a legitamate biz as youeself pays for the bill no matter
how expensive when you request this? so, if you are gonna pay the bill then
fine, i can have it arranges eventually. i am never home and my girlfreind
works pretty much the same schedule but can make it to the vet easier then i
can. also, when my freind took his, he spent all this money just to find out
that his snake did not have IBD and the vet did not know what was wrong with
it. the snake had the same sypmptoms as these but the vet could not figure
it out so it was a complete waste of money. this is another question you
keep avoiding. what do i do about the lack of experience by the vets here?
this is why i figured a legitamate biz/person would except the video? give a
guy a break, it is not my fault that the vets suck here. i treat all my
snakes for pete sake but can not diagnose this for sure, a logical guest at
best. so please answer the questions about this and the bill.
last but not least, i have MANY references if you would like them. i am not
in the business of buying snakes and returing them. i am a breeder and
broker a little to get snakes to those close to me. what would i gain by
doing any of this if the snakes did not have something wrong with them? you
dont actually think i am making this up right? i have a tape i can send to
you, so you KNOW i am telling the truth. i think that you are a small
business starting out so you do not want to return $400 because that is a
substantial amount for you. no one ever wants to return money ok, but if
someone gets gipped it is understandable. i am not saying you sent me
sick/infected snakes on purpose but i dont understand why you have not been
at all understanding of this situation i am in? please dont keep telling me
you need a fax from the vet. i have heard that enough. i am offering you
evidence (the video of the snakes) and the obvious understanding that i can
prove i am a honest legitamate business man and dont rip people off ok. i
will send you a couple refs you can email. i even have a couple emails i can
forward to you of people very satisfied with MY services and animals.
i will tell you i have been ripped off before for $1000 by a man named dan
atkinson of what used to be cold blooded reptiles. it has happened a couple
other times but this guy even taunted me about it. he was getting out of the
biz and decided to send me 3 snakes loaded with mites, resp infectoion and
scars to boot. i have a lawyer that helped me with that case and dan did
square up with me only because he was facing charges. this is serious stuff
and it will not just go away. i will not let it. i have a couple lawyers
that i have had to use to bring myself justice with these idiots like dan.
you can talk to a lawyer of mine if you want, his name is larry lunn esq of
Hall and Lunn attorneys at law, phone number is 207-947-3386. he does many
cases and also got me custody of my son. it is a federal offense when you
rip someone off outside of your own state. plus all the emotional distress i
have suffered as a result of this, pain, anguish and suffering of having to
see these snakes not get the treatment they need that you could give them
because you have access to knowledgable vets in NY. anyway, one either
settles to square up or it comes to the law and if they still dont settle it
goes to court. in most cases i would not say it is worth it for $400 but in
this case it is. It is just principle now. do you even know any of the laws?
maybe you should educate yourself. i will have to look again but i believe
it says satisfaction guranteed on your site. even if not, which i will
check, you guranteed it to me in your email. if you wanted stipulations such
as a vet not or whatever, as odd as it seems, by LAW you do need to put it
on your site or state it. that is what they call fine print. anyway, enough
rant, do you think is right and i will finish this off if you take the wrong
path. hell, my lawyer would not even charge much anything for this. I met
him at the gym because i was a personal trainer and we become good freinds.
it would not take much except for a few phone calls, one of which is to the
attorney general to get things started. ah heck, i dont need to tell you,
you are the experts. i will be sure to tell everyone about the great health
your animals are in this weekend. later....

Dallas

AND ANOTHER:
also, for refs you can talk to chuck from central florida reptile breeders.
i have bought an $800 boa from him and a $650 boa from him. i NEVER
complained. i bought the animals i want and they arrived healthy, that is
it. also, talk to bill cagle about me, ask him if i am cool if you want. i
purchased about $700 worth of retics from bob clark about 8 months ago and
did not try and return them. these are both well known and post all the
time. also, juan infante, i bought $800 worth of boas from him and i did not
complain about anything. need i go on, these are all known guys. i do not
try to return a perfectly healthy animal.
if you need the actual emails, let me know but most of these guys you can
email from their posts on kingsnake.

Dallas

***(WHICH WE NEVER ASKED FOR)***

HERE'S ANOTHER:
Hey also, i am gonna be at the white plains show next month i think, will
you?

Dallas

AND AGAIN:
Read below this was from robyn in response to a question about a purchase i
was gonna be making on a $4000 albino female.so do not act like i dont talk
to him. gee, why would i piss and moan about cheap/healthy snakes when i
have 4grand to spend on one?
Dallas

HERE YOU GO:
First off, no one ever needs a vet report. your reply about the tape " i
dont care about it" just says how iggnorant you are to the FACTS. that is
proof and if it will be good enough for court, it is for you. AND i am not a
vet i cant say they have IBD so you are responsible for whatever it is is
wrong with them. even though all the symptoms point to yes. and yes being
drunk is a reason for not remembering anything. have you even been drunk or
are you too laim to have a good time? i can drink in the privacy of my own
home if i want, plain and simple. as you saw by the email i sent, i had
conversed with robyn about some dealings so maybe i made a mistake or maybe
you made it up, yeah i was drinking, who cares.
You go on to say that that no matter what i do, no matter how wrong i am,
i have lawyers get me out of it. let me tell you something little fella. If
someone tries do rip me off such as you are doing, i am damn well gonna take
them to court or make it even by my own account. What do you want me to do?
let someone rip me off as you are trying and just forget about my money? i
dont think so, forget about it.
And NO i never said that the friend whos house i was at snakes had IBD. I
never said that so WRONG again. if i say my freind or a freind that does not
mean that freind, give me a break. if you think so look at the copies of the
AIM conversation. also, what the hell is wrong with you, i think you are
blind. i told you that my freind once had his snake check but the one he had
checked, DID NOT HAVE IT. And symptoms do not occur overnight. snooorrr.....
Yes when i first recieved the snakes they SEEMED fine although i did email
you and said they were cold. i did not have time to check them over
thoroughly, i have a life. when i looked at them the next day they were
doing that. i was on the run and then i told you about the rest of them.
As far as your gurantee, well you told me your were gonna send the snakes
back so no matter what the gurantee, you cant just change your mind. that
right their is gonna get in a heap of trouble when this comes down. what,
you changed your mind about shipping the snakes? that means you LIED huh, so
forget about it. and why, because you said a ref did not check out? nope,
you are wrong and you will see when you go down. you guranteed me
satisfaction and i have that email to. I have a gurantee, it is that you
will pay for this. You will square up.
No you have not overextended youself, i have. you are the one that sent me
junk and i have yet to report it so i am the one overextending myself. and
it is funny you said you dont care about the tape right after you say you
just dont buy it and you want a vets note or whatever. are you blind, how
does a tape not work? do you need a seeing eye dog? this is rediculous.
It is settled then. you have made your decision and so have i. i am gonna
get it back and make you pay in other ways. Besides going through the court
system i am gonna pursue this through all the other routes. you will see
what i mean soon. By the way, i hope you go to the white plains show but i
am sure you wont because you do not have a ligitimate biz. maybe i will bump
into you guys when i go to utica. we will see, i hope so....

Dallas

P.S. better get a good lawyer because you will be getting a letter in the
mail. also, since i got screwed then it is a state of maine matter, plan on
packing your bags to come to small claims court here.

ANOTHER EMAIL:
I WILL be at the show, i was just talking about utica cause you know that is
from and i go there when i come to the white plains show. i will see you
there then. No threats just letting you know. How about we go out to eat and
you pay for sticking it to me? sorry, i could not resist.
Damn if you were a ligitimate biz than why wont you except the tape i
mean, ah forget it, that will always be a mystery to me. And you are right,
like i said i am not a vet but believe me i could do no less then the vets
around here. Why are you so hung up on the IBD thing for needing a vet
though? if something is wrong something is wrong, period. I mean, do you
know how much money it might cost to get to the bottom of what is wrong with
these guys. If they try one thing and their are no finding then they could
do another and another and another and so on until they finally find out
what is wrong with it. Even if i decent vets, it is not the snakes
appearance that shows symptoms it has to be in their central nervous system.
That means a lot of cash but i talked about that more below.
OK buddy, i will humor you and meet you half way. I explained my situation
about not having a valid herp vet here. What do you suggest i do? No more
joking around. I am serious, this is maine. Maine sucks and i hope to move
back to NY but i am stuck here now. Am i damned because there are no herp
vets?

Another question, if i go and it is not IBD but something else, regardless
of what it is, you will refund my money AND pay for the bill correct?

Last thing... After that night i saw no more symptoms. They WERE
jerking/twitching violently the night i talked to you. If they did what they
were doing for any considerable period of time, they would def be dead. It
would have been to hard on their body. IBD can go back and forth. Just
because they were showing symptoms before but not now, does not mean that
nothing is wrong with them. I do not know what it was for sure man but they
were all freaking out. I have it on tape and am gonna express mail you a
copy tomorrow ok. At least that will erase any doubt to you that i am lying.
So what if they do a check on IBD and they dont have that but something else
and they dont know what? I get stuck with the bill then? see what a chance i
am taking. i have been doing this for 15yrs. anyone knows that with herps
diagnosing an illness is not an exact science and sometimes you dont find
anything when there is definatly something wrong. And maybe something COULD
be found but i/you would have to spend a lot of money, too much. This stuff
gets expensive. This is just an example, not a valid one because there are
no vets here with this type of expereince. You cant just look at the snake
to know if it has IBD you have to send away the blood and wait for the
results. So will you wait two weeks for the results? See what you are
putting me up against? i am not just a prick although i can be when i dont
get justice, i just want whats right and you wont even meet me halfway on
this with all the evidence i can provide.

I am trying to work this out without taking this to the next level. Please
just dont say this is your last correspondance. you cant just give me one
day (you notified me all of the sudden out of the blue today that you were
not giving me a refund and wanted a vets statement) especially when i do not
have access to a vet. Like i said, try to meet me half way. Also, can you
sign your name after an email so i know who i am talking too? i did not
think that is too much to ask as i do the same.

Dallas

IT KEEPS GOING:
Also, on a serious note i want to know why after telling me that you were
gonna give me a refund you changed your mind and said no only after a vet
statement. This was not the deal, the deal was that i return the snakes and
you return my $400. Please do not drag robyn into this either. It has
nothing to do with him and if you cower at the mention of his name like you
make it appear you did when we chatted that night that says something in its
own right. It just does not make any sence and if you are a legit business
then that is not professional.
Dallas

AND FINALLY:
A buddy of yours AIM me last night. he said to send the video that you dont
care about to your place. i am gonna send it to you. i was not gonna because
i plan on getting my money back and i have some other things in store for
you anyway. but just to shut some mouths, i will. because once you all see
the tape you will have to eat your words. I see i am not the only ones who
you have screwed huh? BWAHHAHAHWWAHAHAHA.

DALLAS



And he wonders why I don't respond to him after all this....hmmmm

If anyone would like the originals to show I did not "edit" these, let me know.

It's not a matter of returning snakes he didn't like....that was NEVER the case. Nor was it the case that the animals were misrepresented to him. The FACT remains that he said they have a disease that he refuses to prove. So it's ok to say that if he bought these to resell, got them and his deal fell through or WHATEVER it was......that he can make up a story to try and return them after the fact????

We would all be out of business. We have plenty of customers that are happy.....and some that are not, some we've refunded, some we've made good by exchanging, etc......But this is all about Dallas' case right now.....about how he is lying and STILL refuses to prove any of this. I have shown emails, IM's, etc....All I asked was for him to make an attempt to bring them for a vet report. And I WOULD pay for it, and up until now he has STILL not.....but they've been around other sick snakes, that he even admits to being ill....

And I HAVE to clarify this b/c it's been EATING ME since the first post when someone mentioned it...

I AM A SHE NOT A HE.....MY NAME IS ALISON ......sorry had to get that out in the open...people keep referring to Upstate Exotic's comment that "he" said

 

[Stardust]

Alison,

Your post came on just as I was going to go off.... to bed. I will have to re-read your post tomorrow as I may see some points you have made.
I just wanted to say if I referred to you as a he, I am sorry, I thought I always just said Upstate because I didn't know if you were Alison or Sal, but I could be wrong

 

[UpstateExotics1]

I never lied about what i said about robyn. i have already talked to him and cleared this up. yes, i was very drunk and that is because i did not plan on talking to them just emailing them. Then when they told me to IM it went from there.

Ok, so you never wanted to get on the phone and discuss this then, just think you can email someone and they believe you without talking to you in person...although we wanted to call you and you say you weren't home...but wait then you said you were...no then you said you weren't. And YOU Imed us FIRST...we DID NOT ask to IM with you.

so what? i told them i am sorry IF i made a mistake in the emails so that sould have taken care of that. Besides that i do not know what is edited and what is not except the obvious.

Would anyone else like originals that ARE NOT edited??? So far Rich is the only one who requested it and is behind us that things aren't edited.

You can edite emails and IM's i just tried it a while ago and did.

hmmm........ok......our emails a little while ago....??

They guy that i am using to take care of this particular instance is good but he will charge me fair amount depending on how much he has to do. This is a out of state case and entails more that means more money. i will spend 2-3 hundred dollars if it takes more than that i wont pursue it anymore.

I wonder what he would charge us for a harassment lawsuit...haha

This is a cut-throut business, very much so, but that is the chance you take with dealing with people like upstate exotics.

But you've been in the business 15-years....looks like you're pretty good at the whole cut-throat part...you're going through great lengths on this one.....

Now on to the other stuff. I am not gonna get into detail with this cause I KNOW WHAT I KNOW and no one else here knows what i know, know what i mean? ah what the heck did i just say?

That's a perfect qoute b/c I don't think one story has stayed the same yet Dallas.

i have a 17 month kid to feed, cloth etc and to me it is like taking food off the table for him.

What does that have to do with ANY of this......???

To anyone that says i am NOT being proffessional. You are wrong.

heheee...ummmmm......no nevermind....

they should remain proffessional and courteous.

We have always been professional when asking for a vet report and through all of this...and "courteous"...we have been more than nice....we never threatened you.

Last but not least, i will not post everywhere that they have IBD but i WILL post everywhere that they sent me sick snakes and what it looked like it might be etc.

Which you still cannot prove...and that is still against TOS to post something you cannot back up. I can go video tape "someone" drunk making a fool out of themself but cannot go posting that tape around and calling that "someone" ill or sick....

Now, all i ask is that you do not go on about other stuff like emails, IM's...

Since you had no intentions of calling us, just emailing us like you said, that is the only proof there is to go on.....and a vet report, but there is none of that anyway.

I just noticed yesterday or the day before. It is funny that they had to wait all this time until they finally decided to pay shipping back for sick animals.

Check your earlier posts....it's not new.....you posted it already and now you're saying it's newly added about returning sick animals, we ALWAYS pay for sick animals to be returned to us whenever that does arise.

and Stardust:
QUOTE:
We will ship at your expense and if you ask to pay the convenient way of paypal we will charge you for making it quick and easy.
We will not guarentee live arrival, we won't be home and the message machine doesn't show you called.
We have no satisfaction guarentee, unless you go to vet and pay to have them say something is wrong. Even then we do not like to give money back at all so just post on the BOI so we can argue it out and hurt my name even more.

Or simply: We guarentee never to give refunds

We have given refunds and DO give refunds. We offered a refund to Diana. With Dallas we offered a refund plus vet costs...etc. etc.....but STILL that keeps getting avoided.

 

[UpstateExotics1]

No problem Stardust, not sure if you had done it also, but a few people have....lol

I was just laughing b/c this is Alison......no problem......just wanted to clear it up.

 

[BrianB]

Upstate: First, that whole mess up there is one of the worse cases of poor customer service I've ever seen. Posting it does not help your case.

Second:

Part C is where there's a problem....the snakes were ok when received, but suddenly, after the fact they were not. Part D....he didn't surmise.....he said Robyn did and he asked some guy that was IMing him was telling him what it is for sure.

This is a weak rationale for your poor service.

The snakes arrived. He said they were cold. He stated that they "looked" OK. All that says to me is a) they weren't very active and b) there were no obvious defects in their appearance, such as external parasites, injuries, kinks, etc.

Once the snakes warmed up, he noticed that the motion was jerky.

Whether or not he or PE thinks the snakes have IBD or anything else is immaterial. The fact is, the snake has some kind of prolbem. (Although the fact that you had to ask what IBD is several times doesn't say very much about your snake knowledge.)

So, you take the tack that since the customer said he suspected a medical condition, he must now produce a vet support. That's a really poor example of service. The FIRST THING you should have done was try to figure out with the customer if there was a problem, however you don't appear to be knowledgeable enough to go through the process, or care enough to find someone who is.

You're selling animals. Your customer suspects the snake has a deadly disease, and one that's flat out scary to have in the house. Your first instinct as a seller should be to set that customer's mind at ease, and help him solve the problem.

The way you do that is by knowing something about what the heck you're selling. By calmly asking pointed questions about the snake's condition and trying to make an initial assessment, and then working with the customer to find the best course of action to solve the problem for HIM.

What you did is to try to pass the buck, dodge the responsibility, and once again demonstrate that you don't know much about the animals you're selling. That utterly destroys the buyer's confidence.

Congrats, you've done more to discredit yourself here than any of the customers who were victimized by your poor packing, your lack of acclimizing and deparistizing a misrepresented import, or your repeated gaffs at mislabeling snakes you've had on the KS classifieds.

 

[UpstateExotics1]

I also have to love the fact that one night they are fine....then one is horribly sick....and 4 minutes later they are all sick.

And after all that is said and done, we are STILL willing to pay the vet bill in full, STILL willing to full refund of $400 for snakes PLUS shipping.....that we have offered from when all of this started....

So what is the "suggestion" of the thing to do??? Everyone posts that we should refund him, and we have already numerous times stated we will...why is that not good enough?

 

[BrianB]

In your post with the copy and pasted IM and e-mails, I saw that you'd refund up to $35 in vet bills. Are you saying that you're willing to refund ALL vet expenses on this one?

Do you realize that IBD cannot be detected with certainty without a necropsy? If that is what the animal has, then the vet may diagnose obvious neurological symptoms, but a clear diagnosis of IBD probably should not be expected. (Note to the buyer: It could also be a bacterial infection, so the vet should be told to check for that as well, particularly if the vet isn't that familiar with herps.)

Personally, I find the requirement for a vet certificate to return the animal in the terms of service to be silly. Do you send the animals to the customers with a health certificate? You must realize that not all buyers have a good herp vet that's easy to get to, and that by putting that term on the buyer, you're inconveniencing them purely for your own benefit. The whole CYA bit doesn't go over well with customers. Problem animals should be returned and dealt with on the sellers end. The seller should be knowledgeable enough to identify routine health problems and to help the buyer determine what's going on with an animal, whether it's normal shipping stress or a sign of illness.

On a final note, the tone taken with the customer in the IMs is intially adversarial, period. There's no excuse for that at that stage of the game. I understand sellers being on the defensive here on the BOI when a complaint is levelled, but starting out that way at the first sign of a complaint from a customer is not right, no matter how unreasonable you think the customer is. In this case, I don't think you had any reason to think the customer was unreasonable.

 

[Uffern]

You know, I stopped reading after the IM conversation. This is why.

UpstateExotics (9:21:47 PM): you know what dallas, just box them up and ship them back. Be sure to pack them properly with 40-hour heat packs. Upon arrival I will refund the money to you

What I want to know is, why did this not happen? Upstate said to return the snakes for a refund. Who decided to put this to the axe? Was it Dallas, or Alison? Why did this return and refund not happen?

 

[HerpVenue]

Wow. the wishy washiness of his letters. The threats.. I could go on and on. But in the end he is an unhappy customer who desreves a refund.....................or does he?


If this deal was made with me....he would have gotten a refund already. But in the back of my mind I would be thinking...What did he expose my HEALTHY snakes to?

Why do I say that some of you ask?

Well it leaves my house healthy.
It gets to him chilled but otherwise okay and nonremarkable.
He brings it to his friends house and everything is cool.
It spends the night at his friends house and all of a sudden they are twitching and jerking.
BUT
that is the only night they exibit any symptoms....all the other nights the snakes are just fine.
What am I getting at?

1. Ibd does not show up suddenly.
2. Ibd does not show up for one night only.
3. Ibd progresses slowly in boas.
4. Ibd usually start out as regurgetation. Then slight head jerking (side to side) then "star gazing", disorientation and paralisys, then ultimatley death.

want to know why I ask what they exposed my snakes too?

Poisons/Toxins such as those found in vapona (pest strips) and those in insecticides and some household cleaners or even paint.....these can all cause a snake to exibit the syptoms he is complaing about.


Also I have to ask.....so you were drinking. Is this all you guys were doing? Or was there some "toking/smoking" going on?
These snakes were exposed to something. They are not sick. They were reacting to something in their environment.

Wait a second...I just thought of something. How did you get home to your house and get the camcorder?

 

[HerpVenue]

What I want to know is, why did this not happen? Upstate said to return the snakes for a refund. Who decided to put this to the axe? Was it Dallas, or Alison? Why did this return and refund not happen?

Because they checked out one of Dalass' story and found it to be not so truthful. Then they jsust got weary all together. Like maybe there was nothing wrong with the snakes and he just had buyers remorse or what have you.