Upstate Exotics (BAD GUY)

[Stardust]

I was saying that this thread was started with legit gripes. To me and in MHO to bring it back to the top just because you don't like a pricetag is petty for the BOI forum.
It would be like starting threads such as.... I went to a show and dont like this company because they have green hair, or I dont like that bearded dragon because it is not the exact right color of red.
Its called nit picking. Then we have to start weeding through what is really important, like being ripped off, or lying about what you have.
I agree, I would not buy from upstate either, I have some other reasons, but to post them would be nit picking, since I have not dealt with them personally.
I think with all the proof, people get the drift of what Upstate is all about. That speaks for itself. Not the pricetag they put on an animal.

 

[Seamus Haley]

I dont like that bearded dragon because it is not the exact right color of red.

How about...

"I just paid four hundred dollars for this bearded dragon advertised as screamer red for use as a breeder and when I got it I found out the ad was lying?"

Sure, no money changed hands but Upstate's ad is already misrepresenting glass lizards as being rare when they aren't, just like that stop sign red (hypothetical) bearded dragon...

Chances are good that with a KS ad, SOMEONE will get taken, so why not bring it up?

The more evidence avaliable, the stronger the convictions of anyone who reads it that this is a person to be avoided. The more people avoiding them, the harder it is for them to make money. The harder it is to make money, the quicker they get out of the hobby.

It's just one more bit of evidence of them continually misrepresenting animals and lying to potential customers.

 

[Seamus Haley]

I should point out that this isn't just complaining about the price...

If it were just a complaint about what they decided to sell their animal for, then I would be laughing with the rest of you and find the post unneeded (although I wouldn't go and tell them it shouldn't have been posted... you remember that guy Rich? That's his job, not yours.)...

This isn't just someone setting their price a bit higher than market value, if it was simply that, it would be their right... Their animal, their price...

This is another case in a long line of cases, where they have intentionally and deliberatly written an ad that misleads the buyer into believing that the animal is something it is not COMBINED with a markup that borders on the unethical.

If I buy some freshly imported neonate amazon tree boas for $10 each... and turn around and sell them as CB baby Emmies for $1200... sure, the people who know better wouldn't go near me... But there are enough people who just aren't experienced enough to know the difference, even with pictures, until it's way too late.

That would be a morally incorrect action, right? Taking a common animal and selling it as a rare animal for more than it's worth to someone who doesn't know better?

Sure, I agree with every individual's right to price their animals at whatever they feel the animal is worth, but there is a limit to that when they begin misrepresenting the item for sale...

Pure conjecture here for a moment BUT... Looking at Upstate's history of selling WC animals loaded with parasites, chances are they buy alot of their stock in lots off one of the wholesale companies... MidAmerica or CalZoo maybe... something LIKE that anyway. The point being, chances are good that they didn't pay more than $5-8 for that glass lizard or glass lizards, even when shipping is factored into it. It's a common north american species with few (if any) restrictions on collection where the population is densest and there's really nobody breeding them on a large scale because it's just not worth the investment in time and resources... Now the ad clearly states that the animal being sold is "Rare"...

While rare is a term used when making comparasins and it's all relative to something else... and sure, you see more leopard geckos than eastern glass lizards... The species is hardly Rare.

This makes the statement a lie.

Add in what appears to be a markup that's not reasonable to the misrepresentation... And it's the same situation as someone selling normal ball python neonates as "Possible het for albino"... It's certainly not true, but... anything is possible, right?

The more evidence...

The more examples of shady dealings...

The more ads where they misrepresent something, even by a small amount...

The more people remember what bad guys they are and the less inclined they would be to make a purchase... and the more inclined to mention the name to other people who might not be online or might not know this thread is here.

 

[Stardust]

The fact that Upstate lies has already been driven home. It is here for all to see. Fact
Upstate says the lizard is rare, maybe for them it is, or the term is loosely used. They were selling them at a price that included shipping which is what was not said. I know because I checked.
I know it takes 100 truths to over come lie but I still believe that this was not a big deal.
It is certainly drummed in my head that Upstate are bad, bad, bad to deal with.
I just think that if there is going to be more pounding to the ground it should be a wee bit more substancial than what one considers a rare lizard, or what one considers a fair price. The word rare could be anything from not as common as others to the last existing lizard on earth!
Upstate is already pretty low on the BOI totem pole. I wouldnt want to spoil it with small things such as how rare is a glass lizard. Then it really does become petty to those who read.
Upstate has done enough to hurt themselves, they dont need much help from us.
Anyway just my opinion.

 

[dwedeking]

If I buy some freshly imported neonate amazon tree boas for $10 each... and turn around and sell them as CB baby Emmies for $1200

I think it is wrong in misrepresenting an imported animal as a captive born no matter the dollar amount stated. I also believe there is a difference between misrepresenting an animal's health, history, genetics and condition and putting a label such as "rare", "screamer", "Awesome looking", or any such subjective description.

There are too many factors in a persons business that it is irresponsible to put someone down for the prices they charge, no matter if they are way off the richter scale for the market or not. Do you know what their facility overhead is? Payroll costs? taxes? How much volume they are doing? If you have lease payments of $5 for your shop and you sell one snake then that $5.00 comes out the profit for that one snake. If you sell ten snakes then it's only $.50 per snake. As you multiply these numbers out for real world application you can now see why there is a difference in prices for everyone.

Prices are not a mark of a bad person, whether they are too high or too low (though it may be a sign of a bad business plan).

 

[Stardust]

"Chances are good that with a KS ad, SOMEONE will get taken, so why not bring it up?"


Don't you think you are lumping a whole lot of people together by making that statement Seamus? I know you are unhappy with KS, as I am not really happy with them as well, but to say this is using this thread to not only give Upstate another swipe, but also KS and many people how advertise there.
For instance, I bought from RK reptiles, I saw the ad on KS. Not a bad experience.
Maybe you should rethink what you say or what your motives are.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Don't you think you are lumping a whole lot of people together by making that statement Seamus?

No.

Maybe you should rethink what you say or what your motives are

And maybe... just maybe... You should step back and think about the statement I made with a bit of logic before attempting to critisize it...

KS is big. Very big. Lots of traffic.

There is virtually nothing that won't be sold if it's posted on KS... SOMEONE will buy it.

The only things you see that don't move are the super high end animals that cost more than my car, anything priced under a few hundred dollars is gone almost as soon as the ad is posted.

There are simply that many people who check the classifieds over there, encompassing the complete range of potential buyers, from the educated and experienced, to the naive and functionally illiterate.

Even those who have no idea what someone is saying when it's clearly written and decide to go off on some perverse tangent out of ignorance.

 

[UpstateExotics1]

I haven't been here in a while...

I wean myself from the BOI and I miss a bit..

Seamus, when the ad on kingsnake said "You rarely see these around" meant...to and to a few others....that when and how often do you see these lizards on kingsnake?? I did a search before I posted to try and compare costs as to not kill the market, and saw none at that time.

Also, in NY you really do RARELY see these around. Never did the ad state it was a RARE animal, nor insinuate it.

Looks like that's what it turned into in later posts here I read. I just wanted to clarify it.

 

[UpstateExotics1]

I also want to add...

I just wanted to add to this one more thing. (ok maybe 2 more things)

1.Everyone seemed to jump all over us with the whole Diana Mason thing. We offered her a refund, not good enough for her....then she decided to keep him. He was healthy when we shipped him, besides some "ticks" that she said he had, but has never shown proof of. It just gets me that someone can as a customer come on here and say something, and everyone backs them up, with no proof, just their word. Maybe she had buyers remorse, so came up with some excuse to return him, but then decided to keep him. No one ever thinks that, they think..."oh bad bad bad Upstate Exotics". But she never had to prove it, but we have to come on here as a business and plea not to be fed to the sharks to try and prove our case. We had pictures of that monitor, and a well known monitor breeder had even looked at him in the pictures after this all happened and said he DID NOT look thin or unhealthy at all. I do have the pictures of what he looked like when posted, of exactly the animal Diana purchased from us, that no one, til this day, has asked to see. Nor did Diana ever post any pictures of how "terrible" this animal was. I understand we need to look at both sides, but I feel this wasn't fair that everyone took Diana's side, without proof, and never asked for my proof when I offered it.

Well, WE wanted to come here and now post what has happened. Apparently Diana feels that she was harsh on us here, but feels that since she has all of you here on HER side, she can use that against us to get her way. Apparently, she cannot get the monitor to eat, or so she says. Meanwhile here, he was such an aggressive eater. And NOW wants a refund. I have never received a phone call from Diana since the beginning of all of this, but she uses the whole BOI thing as leverage, which I think is how people can play with members on the BOI.

Here is the email I received from her:

QUOTE:
"The monitor you sold me over a month ago will not keep any meals down. He regurates everything back up and is getting thinner by the day. I didn't say anything to you earlier because I was going to try and fix him myself and avoid anymore dealing with you but I can't get him to keep any meals down and I'm leaving for college soon and can't afford any more vet trips so I'd like to ask you to refund my money ($165) and I'll give you back your monitor. You probably have better access to herp vets up there and are more financialy stable to help this animal. I know I said I was going to keep him and didn't want a refund but I've changed my mind and can't keep him now. Please take into consideration the welfare of the animal and what would be best for him. Let me know if you can help me out and if you will I will make sure to post how you were kind enough to refund my money aftr all this time and state that I was too harsh on you on th boi. I'm willing to drive anywhere to meet y ou. Let me know. Thanks. Diana"

Now all of a sudden this animal is become emaciated but never bothered to contact us until now. So I guess the "RIGHT" thing to do is take back a half dead animal from someone who couldn't care for it and give her all her money back to "save face".

I'm sorry, but I have to draw the line. I offered her a refund but she wouildn't take it becase she "couldn't see the animal being put back into our horrible care"

Looks like you're doing a real good job of caring for it in your care Diana...GODD THING you didn't ship him back to us....hmmmm

2. Also with the whole Dallas Quarrals thing. I have to laugh about this, because it is really is such a joke.

Just to let everyone know, the snakes that had "IBD" ..::cough cough::... that were so painfully sick, that were such wreched animals jerking around suffering so horribly....are now being sold on kingsnake.

The ad said something like:
4 Healthy Clean CB Baby Columbian Red Tail Boas. ---MY snakes. I checked the pictures against mine.

They never had this disease nor anything wrong with them.


I think the BOI is a great place, I check on most of my customers and other businesses here and some things you have to take with a grain of salt, others you really have to beware of.

But I have gotten quite a bad rap here...over, really, ONE instance. I say that b/c the Dallas complaint was not even close to legit, he just tried to use this as an excuse, b/c he saw a bad post, tried to take advantage, and lost.

I just think everyone should try to justify BOTH sides better, instead of someone posting a complaint, believeing it wholeheartedly, without proof, and ripping apart the story of the other side.

 

[HerpVenue]

I just think everyone should try to justify BOTH sides better, instead of someone posting a complaint, believeing it wholeheartedly, without proof, and ripping apart the story of the other side.

I don't know.....but I thought I grilled Dallas pretty well. Sorta like I grilled that other guy that was on your side. Either way....All sides were stinky in this thread.

Speaking of stinky.
Upstate be very careful with your adds. Although you have not totally lied on a couple adds that I have in mind.....you were stretching the truth on one of them. I know.....Because I know all about certain snakes you bought and then sold. In fact.....I know there history better than you did.

But I will not say anymore..... Just know that you are under a microscope....specially since we know that you misrepresent your animals. And if you want an example......the WC monitor that you sold as captive bred is one of them. Other examples to follow. Spies are everywhere.

 

[UpstateExotics1]

Ritchie you're right, you did with Dallas look at both sides fairly. And I also have to give you credit, b/c out of everyone here, yuo were the only one who requested copies of things that help me clear my side up.



Also, just so everyone knows, my horrible badly "emaciated" animal that Diana purchased, she TOO is selling now, all apparently fine and dandy.

Black Throat Monitor, Amazon Tree Boa, Veiled Chameleon, and more for TRADE http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15856

 

[sputnik]

THE MUD DOES STICK

Upstateexotics slinging mud at Diana Mason and Mud being slung back at upstate from Diana Mason.......... it seems to be sticking to BOTH!

Misrepresented animals, not shipping, I can't refund, the excuses roll on.....

I don't know who to believe...... maybe neither would be a safe bet!

 

[Bobby Douglass]

Upstate, if you had answered simple questions such as why you said the monitor was CB in an e-mail then people may have pursued further evidence you had. Did you ever end up answering that question or would you care to answer it now?

 

[HerpVenue]

Okay "Gracie"

Upstate made a very good point. Either that is the same monitor.
Or you have bought more than one monitor at $165

gracie
Member
Offline

Registered: Feb 2002
Location:
Posts: 76
Black Throat Monitor, Amazon Tree Boa, Veiled Chameleon, and more for TRADE
I have the folloing animals for trade for adult kenyan sand boas, adult rosy boas, red, blue or blk&white tegus, or any other medium sized adult snakes.

1.0 ltc 2ft blackthroat monitor. Very tame. Flawless except for a nose rub. Clean inside and out. Great monitor. Originaly paid $165
1.0 cb 1.5 year old TAME orange/yellow amazon tree boa. Very tame for an amazon, rarely ever bites and with a little more handling he can be as tame as any ball python. Beautiful coloration as well. About 3ft long and pounding small adult mice. He on the thin side right now as he went off feed for the winter but has since begun eating again and should beef up in no time. Originaly paid $200.
0.1 cb proven veiled chameleon. 3 years old and proven twice. First clutch was 36 second was 35. Good personality, eats right out of your hand. Originaly paid $70.
1.0 cb adult jaxsons chameleon. Perfect horns, great appetite. Real neet little chameleon. Originaly pair $75.
0.1 cb adult proven 100% het blizzard leopard gecko. Striped. Tame. Proven het. Real nice gecko. Originaly paid $65.

I would like to trade the whole group for a breeding group of kenyans or rosies but am open to all offers. Pics available of all. I'll also accept cash offers. I don't ship first in trades. Email your offers at [email protected]

 

[Corey Sawyer]

Funny how an animal that was so horrible is being sold as nearly flawless.

 

[sputnik]

nearly flawless

I thought she was going to KEEP IT?

I find it amazing that she thought she could sell it and not have anyone notice it.

Upstate are after her, after she had gone after them over this monitor. Kettle calling the pot black?

Maybe we have two black pots!

 

[UpstateExotics1]

Going after her?

YES

She stated that this animal had ticks, which it didn't. She said it did, everyone believed her, I said it didn't everyone attacked us.

She said the animal was thin when she got it. Which everyone believed, but it wasn't.

She came on here to fauna and attacked us, with never once contacting us about the animal, even to raise a single concern she might have had.

I'm just trying to show that she finally got caught in her lies.

But still it's "watch out for Upstate" and "I'll never buy from Upstate".

I never lied to her. The animal was never sick. The animal never had ticks.

So now I can finally show that she has lied, but still, we're wrong. What else do I do to show that everything this animal Diana said it was, actually was never?

She received a healthy, eating monitor, as she was promised.

 

[MSL]

Alison,

If the whole Monitor incident was infact a farce I'm sorry that you took such a board beating over it. But I have to admit I would not purchase from you. Your satisfaction policy leaves much to be desired. I believe a buyer should be able to return an animal within 48 days for ANY reason. I also think that demanding a Vet certificate to return an animal the buyer feels is not doing well is a little much.

And you've still side stepped the CB versus WC issue which I feel has been the most damaging to your credibility. Unless I've missed your explanation in previous posts in which case I apologize.

You as a business have a right to whatever return policy you desire. And I as a consumer reserve the right to purchase only from those dealers whose policies I agree with. Case in point I have been contemplating purchasing a Nic Boa, but when I saw your name on the ad, and knowing your policy, I didn't even open the post. This is not to criticize I promise you, just hoping that you may rethink your policy is all that's intended.

Meryl Lechner

 

[Dragondad]

In this particular instance, Upstate may have the upper hand over Diane. Meaning if you look at the whole thread you will find no real proof the animal in question had ticks or was ill. No Dr. report or pictures.
Yes Upstate did lie about CB, well maybe, if there were really ticks. But with Diane lying, maybe this thread should be re-thought out.
She could have been lying about the ticks as well, or the vet. It is time now to ask for real proof from Diane. Otherwise, in this instance her claims are NOT valid.
That would mean that maybe, maybe not Upstate lied about CB as well.

 

[W.Wedeking]

Gracie post, quote from email from Upstate Exotics:

"You purchased an import, that is part of purchasing an import. You did not purchase a CB monitor from us, nor was there any indications during any part of the sale that you were purchasing a CB. I am not sure if you are new to purchasing reptiles, however, anyone will tell you that imports are going to have ticks, mites, etc. And being a business with a high turn over, we try our best to de-tick our animals, but there are going to be instances where you will find them. However I am glad to hear the monitor is doing fine.

Like I said, if you feel you must post on the BOI, this will all be my defense and ANYONE in the reptile business will agree that this is very common with ALL imports.

Thanks

Upstate Exotics"

Gracie post, quote from email from Upstate Exotics:

"He is eating 2 f/t small rats 1 a week. We believe it's a HE, but it is VERY hard to sex a monitor, when he came from my breeder, that's what he was sold as. He is CB. And as far as age, maybe 2 yrs??"

Upstate Exoitcs post, quote from email from Gracie:

Well, he just arrived and I am EXTREMELY angry with you. First of all you shipped airsaver which is just not right. The heat packs were ice cold and you only used 2 for such a large box? There should have been 5-6 in that box. I thought he was dead when I opened the sac but he was still just barely hanging on and I don't expect him to make it though the rest of the day. And there is no way those were 40 hr heat packs otherwise they would have still been warm when he got here. If he dies because of this I expect a FULL refund. This could have all been avoided if you had simply used more heat packs and a smaller box. Expect to see this posted on the BOI....