upstate exotics (good people)

[Stardust]

In thinking this over, I think I will wait to hear from both sides. Just seems strange to me, three companies, all dealing with WC. That is why people go that way, it is very cheap and you do have to weed through the good and the bad.
Reserving judgement.

 

[UpstateExotics1]

Website......

Before I get into the whole reptile thing....let me clarify this website problem...

Also let me say this AJ is speaking of her own personal preference of the last 2 weeks. She was not around when any of this transpired AND as always, Ken will not speak for himself (one of the may problems we found out after "partnering" and "unpartnering" with him).

The domain was registered 7/3 by Moonlit Media...and yes it get's registered to my company...as all internet companies do until they receive payment, then they turn the domain over...otherwise there is no promise you will ever get paid (a lesson I learned already from Southern States and Corey Kingsbury). I don't want his site...and he promised to send paypal...but I'll get into that.

Ken and I spoke about getting him a website. I went through designing different ideas, he picked the one he liked, we tweaked everything he sent pics, etc....then we launched it. I also maintained AND hosted it during this time, from July until yesterday.

Now Ken does not wat to pay for it. He had FULL access to his site to make ANY changes, so when AJ says they couldn't change their site, its a lie....they even went in and deleted all folders and subdirectories. I even have copies of all emails with their domain info sent to them numerous times, plus numerous times via telephone.

I have been paying the money for Ken to have his site hosted, money that comes out of my own pocket. 2 days ago is when we found out that the partnership was not working with Ken as he would not return phone calls, was always too busy, always had excuses. So instead of calling he went back and forth with me via email (there's about 100 of them I can post if necessary). I had suspended his site 2 days ago for non payment of site and hosting. He contacted me and asked me to show "good faith" and put the site back up so they could make changes and he would send payment by 6pm yesterday. Well instead of making changes they tried hacking into our system, into my OTHER domains, etc...all of which their IP's have been recorded from the hosting company and other various sites. Which is ILLEGAL!!

So the whole time Ken begged for me to show "good faith" that I could trust him, he was using that to buy time to have his people try to TAKE the domain without paying for it. Ken even threatened that he would do whatever he had to, to do it his way.

I've never denied Ken his site, I just wanted to get paid. He promised to pay and didn't...here's the emails for that.

Sorry if it's tough to sort through, but like I said there has to be 100 of them. If you want originals of all of them pm me and I'll send them.

thank you
good night
ken


Ok, I will leave it alone on good faith. You will stay up until tomorrow. Payment must be received in full by 6pm. Fair enough?

Have a good night.

Sincerely,

Alison Tornambene

Alison Tornambene
Owner
Moonlit Media
518-692-3101
http://www.moonlitmedia.com
[email protected]


also there are no worries if we can keep talking like this and we trust each other and i pay you with paypal tomm
trust you
ken


-------Original Message-------

From: Moonlit Media
Date: Thursday, September 04, 2003 00:04:32
To: 'kenneth'
Subject: RE: Moonlit Media

I'll make it even easier. Your site is already active. I will leave it up and will wait until tomorrow for payment. If payment is not received by 6pm, we will have to take one step back and go back to this same situation and it was all for nothing.

Please don't make me regret having faith in you.

Sincerely,

Alison Tornambene

Alison Tornambene
Owner
Moonlit Media
518-692-3101
http://www.moonlitmedia.com
[email protected]


did u get my email the money is not in my paypal. i know the site is now up but i can not send the paypal money till tomm. i have to transfer. take it back down and lets do this tomm
ken
let me know




Your site is up. Please remit payment.

Sincerely,

Alison Tornambene

Alison Tornambene
Owner
Moonlit Media
518-692-3101
http://www.moonlitmedia.com
[email protected]


do not unsuspend it right now i need to transfer money to paypal. i will email you tomm. when i have the money in paypal and then when it is up i will transfer
fair enough. i will keep my word. but if you put it up and the money is not in paypal and i can not send it you will think i am not paying you
okay
ken
email saying this is okay


-------Original Message-------

From: Moonlit Media
Date: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 23:55:10
To: 'kenneth'
Subject: RE: Moonlit Media

Ken:

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Here's how it will work. I will un-suspend your account, with your emails stating that you will pay me once you gain access to the site. If I do not receive payment for hosting and design via paypal (the invoices I have sent you) within an hour, your site will be permanently suspended and conversation over until the payment is THEN received.

You talk about trust, I TRUSTED you by designing the site and hosting it without payment up front...my mistake, and you've proved I cannot "trust" you. Like I told you, I have nothing to gain by not giving you your site, I am just making sure I get paid.

You will have access within 5 minutes using the information I have given you many times before. Stick to your word and pay me for un-suspending you.

Sincerely,

Alison Tornambene

Alison Tornambene
Owner
Moonlit Media
518-692-3101
http://www.moonlitmedia.com
[email protected]


i paid for the domain name www.elitereptile.com and i own it!!! i want you off that name and if you are not going to take your stuff off that domain name then i will have it done
ken
that domain name is mine not yours and i own it. i paid for that domain name and you have your name all over it and did not list my name on that domain site.
i am going to make a new goal then
GET YOU OFF MY DOMAIN NAME
THIS IS GOING TO BE FUN SO HERE I GO


-------Original Message-------

From: Upstate Exotics
Date: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 23:18:26
To: 'kenneth'
Subject: Moonlit Media

Ken:

You just bought your domain name. You did not pay for hosting the site and the design. So without those things you would have nothing just a name, no site....BUT....you did request those things to be done, you chose those things to be done, I didn't just decide to do those things for you...and you did not pay. Therefore to gain "access" is though our web server, which is hosting. So you will not gain "access" until paid. Since Web Design came with hosting, you will not gain "access" without payment in full.

I don't need your domain name, or your site, so what do I have to gain by not giving it to you? But I'm not giving you anything you have not paid for.

I've told you, I've learned from my mistakes in the past, but you didn't get me on this.

This is finished, as I feel I have explained everything to you. Until payment is received I can't do anything, you will not get anything for free with me. This is a business, you took on my services and now you must pay for the work that is completed and the past due web hosting fees.

Sincerely,

Alison Tornambene

Alison Tornambene
Owner
Moonlit Media
518-692-3101
http://www.moonlitmedia.com
[email protected]


-------Original Message-------

From: Moonlit Media
Date: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 23:10:30
To: 'kenneth'
Subject: Moonilt Media

Ken:

Your info for your domain is once again as follows:

Username: eliterep
Password: yates
Domain: http://www.elitereptile.com

I am not unlocking the site until it is paid. Good faith is paying for what you've had for free for so long. Until this "mess" is paid for, the site will remain suspended.

This is Moonlit Media, my company, my money....money owed for your site. Money that is coming out of my pocket to keep YOUR site up.

I have had this problem in the past, and have learned from my mistakes. One I thank god for learning from, otherwise I would've gotten screwed again.

I protect myself by suspending the account to be sure I get paid for services rendered.

This is simple. You pay me, you get your site. You don't pay me, unfortunately I cannot do much. No more "good faith"...your "good faith" is costing me money now. "Good Faith" was building this site for you and updating it without receiving payment upfront. "Good Faith" was not hounding you about web hosting fees after you did not pay the FIRST month.

Sincerely,

Alison Tornambene

Alison Tornambene
Owner
Moonlit Media
518-692-3101
http://www.moonlitmedia.com
[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: kenneth [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 10:43 PM
To: Upstate Exotics
Subject: RE: Upstate Exotics


all i want is my web back up. the info to access my domain and then we straighten out this mess.
let us do that to show faith and we go foward
yes or no
ken

Also, Ken tried going behind my back and getting into my accounts like I said. Here's an email he sent to try and get access to ALL my domains (customers and all):

Hello,
Unfortunately if the domain is in your providers account with us there is no way we can give you access to it. They will have to authorize it first.
----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 12:39 PM
Subject: Registered Domain with your Company


I currently have a web domain with you, but am unable to log on to adjust some things on my site. Please contact me about this problem ASAP! Our Contact is with Moonlit Media, but we have lost contact with them and need to keep our website up and running for the sake of business. So please contact us with our info. Thank you for your time.

So...basically Ken owes $1500 for design AND $60 that I have paid OUT OF POCKET for his hosting. He promised to pay...and I even OUT OF GOOD FAITH put his site back up. And this is how he reacted.

We are not looking to own or take EliteReptile.com, I am just looking to get paid for work completed. Until paid I will not release the site, b/c Ken has already proven (after saying I could trust him to pay if I unsuspend the site) that he has no intentions of paying. So, I am supposed to BELIEVE him when he says to turn it all over, site, domain, design and all and expect payment...he's already proven he can't be trusted.

This is a good lesson to be learned...

 

[Dragondad]

round and round

I just read the posts and I think Rozann is right. I am going to reserve judgment here. At first it appears that Alison has posted the proof of the domain name issue.

And I am ashamed to admit the we jumped to the assumption of Upstates guilt without seeing proof from the accuser. It appears that there was no accuser just a Fauna member posting ads from KS and then Anja comes on and says something. Looking back no proof provided just says they were ripped off and all of a sudden Upstate is guilty.

Ok lets see the proof on the transactions so we can make a sound judgement. Remember folks just because they have been wrong in the past doesnt make them wrong now. Or has the idea of innocent until proven guilty been eliminated.

 

[DThomas]

-------Original Message-------

From: Upstate Exotics
Date: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 23:18:26
To: 'kenneth'
Subject: Moonlit Media

Ken:

You just bought your domain name. You did not pay for hosting the site and the design. So without those things you would have nothing just a name, no site....BUT....you did request those things to be done, you chose those things to be done, I didn't just decide to do those things for you...and you did not pay. Therefore to gain "access" is though our web server, which is hosting. So you will not gain "access" until paid. Since Web Design came with hosting, you will not gain "access" without payment in full.

I don't need your domain name, or your site, so what do I have to gain by not giving it to you? But I'm not giving you anything you have not paid for.

I've told you, I've learned from my mistakes in the past, but you didn't get me on this.

This is finished, as I feel I have explained everything to you. Until payment is received I can't do anything, you will not get anything for free with me. This is a business, you took on my services and now you must pay for the work that is completed and the past due web hosting fees.

Sincerely,

Alison Tornambene

Alison Tornambene
Owner
Moonlit Media
518-692-3101
http://www.moonlitmedia.com
[email protected]

According to your own email to him, you say he paid for the domain. Accordingly, it should be registered in his name and he should have control over it. If he has not paid you for the web design and hosting, then he should absolutley not get any of the files or be hosted anymore. But, he still has rights to the domain and can leave and take it with him and have it pointed to another server.

It is illegal to hold hostage the property of another in an attempt to collect a debt. It violates the Fair Credit Act and it is also theft. You are now in the position of a debt collector and as such you had better tread carefully in how you attempt to collect this debt. You claim he owes you $1,560.00 for web design and hosting. This will seem like a pitance compaired to the fines he could have levied against you for unfair debt collection.

 

[DThomas]

Re: round and round

At first it appears that Alison has posted the proof of the domain name issue.

Yes she did. She posted proof the domain name HAD been paid for. It is not her's and should not be in her's or her company's name.

 

[Wilomn]

Ok, let's give her the benifit of the doubt on the domain name. There is still ANOTHER issue of sick and dying animals. Let's go ahead and get into that.

Invoices
Photos
Payments
Lies
Spins
Lies
Sidetracking
Victimization
Lies

and 50 pages later what will be the outcome?

Wes Pollock

 

[DThomas]

It violates the Fair Credit Act

Sorry, that should be Fair Debt Collection Practices Act .

 

[lkb1975]

upstate exotics

I bought a boa from upstate exotics about 2 months ago. The picture they had was very deceiving. (high red) yeah right. Anyways I had it for 10 days approx. and it died and stunk immediately. Obviously a very sick snake!!! I was burned and had to learn my lesson the hard way. (I hadn't learned about board of inquiry yet) I was still learning how to use this website. So good luck on all your snakes living. I'll never buy from them again !!!!!!

Laurel Baber

 

[Stardust]

I guess it would be dependant on whether the contract for web design includes keeping the name until it is paid in full.
I kind of understand that a designer would have to have some back up if it is not paid in advance.
It would be silly to trust everyone on "good faith". It takes a lot of time to put up and design a good website, and, oh gosh, from I have seen of her sites she builds, it looks like she does a good job.
If the hacking thing is true, perhaps she can put something on here to prove that.
Whether it be upstate or someone else, it is just not good to try and get something for nothing, or take advantage of a situation.

 

[Darin Chappell]

It may be that Alison actually is right about the domain name thing, although it appears from DThomas' posts that she does not have that right after all. Nevertheless, the idea that Alison is in the right for withholding the site because of some $1,500 of upaid web design ignores one pertinent fact: Sal owes Ken some $5000 worth of animals!

This argument that Alison's company is separate from Sal's, so it's really a shame if Sal rips you off, but you still owe Alison, is nothing but a new shade to the old shuffle game of "It's not me. My 'Partner' ripped you off!"

Alison CAN be right about any given individual aspect. Nevertheless, she and Sal are crooks. They are crooks together, and their actions are taken in concert so as to rip people off for as much as possible. Anyone that enters into a deal with either of them is simply asking to be burned.

 

[DThomas]

The problem is the domain has been paid for. Webdesign is not dependent on a certain domain. She can release the domain to him and he still won't have a website. She just has to close the hosting account and the domain points nowhere.

Pay close attention to the part in bold...

808. Unfair practices [15 USC 1692f]

A debt collector may not use unfair or unconscionable means to collect or attempt to collect any debt. Without limiting the general application of the foregoing, the following conduct is a violation of this section:

(1) The collection of any amount (including any interest, fee, charge, or expense incidental to the principal obligation) unless such amount is expressly authorized by the agreement creating the debt or permitted by law.

(2) The acceptance by a debt collector from any person of a check or other payment instrument postdated by more than five days unless such person is notified in writing of the debt collector's intent to deposit such check or instrument not more than ten nor less than three business days prior to such deposit.

(3) The solicitation by a debt collector of any postdated check or other postdated payment instrument for the purpose of threatening or instituting criminal prosecution.

(4) Depositing or threatening to deposit any postdated check or other postdated payment instrument prior to the date on such check or instrument.

(5) Causing charges to be made to any person for communications by concealment of the true propose of the communication. Such charges include, but are not limited to, collect telephone calls and telegram fees.

(6) Taking or threatening to take any nonjudicial action to effect dispossession or disablement of property if --

(A) there is no present right to possession of the property claimed as collateral through an enforceable security interest;

(B) there is no present intention to take possession of the property; or

(C) the property is exempt by law from such dispossession or disablement.

(7) Communicating with a consumer regarding a debt by post card.

(8) Using any language or symbol, other than the debt collector's address, on any envelope when communicating with a consumer by use of the mails or by telegram, except that a debt collector may use his business name if such name does not indicate that he is in the debt collection business.

Her security interest would be in the website itself, not the domain. The website has not been paid for, so she gets to keep it until it is, but not the domain.

 

[Dragondad]

Yes lets get into it

I would say yes Wes let get into it. Isnt that what the BOI is all about showing the proof of their side of a transaction. On another thread you were given the chance to post your proof that you were wronged. At this point there is no proof concerning anything about the animals just someone saying animals are bad. So Wes lets make Elite prove or Upstate prove it.

Concerning the Web page, domain name, design bills. I am not a lawyer, so will leave it as it sits.

 

[DThomas]

Re: Yes lets get into it

I would say yes Wes let get into it. Isnt that what the BOI is all about showing the proof of their side of a transaction. On another thread you were given the chance to post your proof that you were wronged. At this point there is no proof concerning anything about the animals just someone saying animals are bad. So Wes lets make Elite prove or Upstate prove it.

Concerning the Web page, domain name, design bills. I am not a lawyer, so will leave it as it sits.

I agree. Lets see some pics of those animals in the freezers and some invoices AND actual shipping invoices from shipping companies. And Alison, this time include dates on "official correspondence."

 

[UpstateExotics1]

Maybe there is some confusion on how the internet/web design works.

If you go to Earthlink, Black Lab, or any other hosting company you pay a set up fee (which gets you your domain name registered). That domain is registered to whatever company it is you are using. If you decide to transfer out, want the site in your name, etc. they do not release it unless you are paid up to date with them.

Prime example: I switched my customers from Black Lab to a different server. Black Lab would not release some of the domains until any and all oustanding balances for hosting was paid in full. (Otherwise no one would stay in business). Once everyone paid their bill up to date, Black Lab released the domains.

This is exactly what every company does (unless they are a very close trusted friend). If I let all my customers have their domains in their name, they could pick and and take off without ever paying me, then not only am I out money, I would be out of business.

Prime Example: What Ken, Southern States and Corey have all tried to do. But Ken is a prime example. I gave him the opportunity to pay and get his site, and he proved himself wrong by trying to hack into different systems and steal what was not his to take....which is also illegal and punishable by law.

Example: If he would have been successful and hadn't gotten his IP address tracked, then he would have taken his domain, possibly all my other customers (or messed with them in some fashion) and he would have a full site, free hosting and everything for free.

Ken promised to pay...I promised to give him his site once his outstanding balance had been paid in full. I even put his site back up to allow him to make changes, costing me more more money as I have to pay for that time since he would not.

And he used that "trust" and "good faith", as he calls it, against me to try and beat me out of money owed.

It's like going and buying a car. You go get a loan (I built a site on the loan, Ken did not pay me a dime for design or hosting up front), but you have to come up with a down deposit (Ken paid for the domain), you drive the car around and use it to get you to work(make changes to the site, advertise it, use it as a tool to make you money), then you say screw the bank (Moonlit Media) I'm not gonna pay...what happens...you have an opportunity to pay your bill before they take the car back....if you don't pay they take the car and sell it...or you finally pay and they give you the car back.

Unfortunately the internet does not allow these extravagent ways of making sure someone pays you...which like I said...is the reason domain names are kept in the company's name until they are paid in full...THEN they will release it.

I'm not looking to beat him out of an $8 domain.....I don't want it...and I told him I would hand it over....however he is trying to beat me out of $1560.

So now, I'm supposed to say here Ken take the domain...yea I'll never see my money...NEVER. And especially since he states plain and simple - "just delete the site, I never proofed it" - right then and there he said flat out he's looking not to pay. And he lied too, he proofed it, picked the site out, helped designed the site and even had me add pictures and make changes to it....

I am, though, real interested to hear from everyone here (since some think I am so wrong) how THEY would handle this situation....to make sure they would get paid.

 

[UpstateExotics1]

Now the reptiles....

Give me some time to get this stuff..pictures, etc for this reptile part of it...please, let's try not to make 5 pages for me to read again before I post....give me 20 minutes before you pass judgement...

 

[DThomas]

Last time I registered a domain with a hosting company, it was immediately in my name. And no, it was not a friend. I could have canceled my hosting account at anytime and if the domain registration was current, pointed it where ever I wanted it to. The domain registration was a seperate fee from the hosting account. The hosting company is nothing more than a middle man for the main domain registrars.

 

[Wilomn]

alison, methinks I smells fish again.

I own a domain name. I paid a registration company for it. It is not being used at the moment. I have used it in the past. The person who built my website disappeared and took all my info with him. I still own my domain name. It was never his. I registered it, I paid for it, it's mine now and forever.

If ken PAID you for the domain name, then regardless of what else he owes you, the name is his to do with as he pleases.

It's like buying bagels and creamcheese. They go great together but if you pay for them one at a time, you own them one at a time. If you pay for the bagels and get the creamcheese on a promise to pay next time you buy bagels, you still own the bagels but not the creamcheese.

You owe ken his bagels, but you can keep the creamcheese.

Wes Pollock

 

[Stardust]

But if it is a package deal, like say a car, doesnt the bank hold the title until the car is paid off?
Maybe I am missing something?

 

[Wilomn]

Hey Alison,

I have a serious question for you, well actually, a few of them.

If the reptiles are sal's thing howcome you are always the one writing here?

Why do you sell reptiles?

Do you even like them or is it just for the money?

How long have you kept reptiles and how many kinds have you kept?

Have you ever bred or kept any reptiles long term? Longer than a year or two?

Why, exactly, after all the headaches and hassles you've had, are you still selling, or trying to sell, reptiles?

Wes Pollock

 

[Wilomn]

Stardust you are missing something.

They are two separate purchases. One is not dependant on the other. You can buy domain names all day long and never have a website to go with them. It's sort of like buying a car and then the insurance to go with it. It's nice to have both but, not necessary.

Wes Pollock