Upstate Exotics ??? (help me)!

[Wilomn]

Damn Seamus, maybe you really are a smart guy. I read that 360 thing and it didn't even register on me and I actually know the difference between a 180 and a 360.

Good Catch.

Wes Pollock

 

[ms_terese]

OK, Alison, I'm letting you know

If you want suggestions, Alison, I'll be happy to throw some out there.

Tony was reimbursed before this thread started but NO ONE wants to hear it!!

It seems as if you're referring to Tony Pappalardo. If that's the case, then someone is out and out lying. The reason that "no one wants to hear it" is that you've been asked repeatedly to post proof, or at least your time frame of when this reimbursement was given, and you've not done that. If you want someone to believe you, post your proof.

I have to say, I don't think you're dealing with 5 unhappy people. You said yourself, many of your customers don't know about the BOI. Are you saying now that the only unhappy customers you've ever had have posted here on Fauna??

It also seems as if reptiles are not your only "livelihood", since you also have a construction company and a website building business. That's all fine, many of us have other jobs. I work another full time job in the pharmaceutical industry. Do you know how many customers I have there? Currently, 452. Do you know how many of them are not happy with me; have accused me of cheating them; have gotten angry over my professionalism or ways of doing business and decided not to do business with me any longer? Zero. Nada. Not one. Have we ever had problems? Sure. Pricing issues, shipping issues, quality that slipped through QC, you name it, I've answered my phone and had to deal with it. You know what the difference is? I've never ONCE accused a customer of lying to me about their complaints; I've never ONCE made an offer to resolve a situation and then not followed through; I've never ONCE not taken full responsibility for mistakes that were made, even if I had nothing to do with them.

I'm guessing from the posts on the other site regarding the construction problems, and the posts here regarding the reptile problems, that you haven't learned to do those things yet, or maybe you haven't learned the value of every single customer that you have. There aren't *any* that are unimportant or not worth resolving every single issue. I'm not sure how your website work is going, but I have noticed some overhauls on at least one of the sites built by Moonlit Media.

I'm not trying to be attacking, because I really believe that businesses with bad reputations hurt the entire hobby and industry, and that's awful for all of us. I'd love to see you turn it around. I'm just not sure you "get it", and I'm not sure if you really want to be better, or just make people believe you are.

 

[UpstateExotics1]

When I said a full 360 I meant to turn things COMPLETELY around.

Also as far as my husbands OLD contracting company, those matters have been resolved, and if Tony hadn't posted that link up here my husband would never have known those things were even posted there.

I have have my own graphic design firm for 6 years now, have done may of the reptile sites out there, and yet, that should still have nothing to do with it.

But back to the subject of reptiles, which is why this site is here, for the reptile industry.

Ok you all say I keep dodging everything, but why doesn't anyone agree when we HAVE done the right thing.

ie. Offered Gracie her refund, which she never accepted. Given the refund for the yellow rat for the last gentleman (my apologies for not remembering his name). This is what I mean about how we will never be able to please anyone. In the past we have tried to do the right thing, but no one acknowledges that.

Ms_Terese thank you for your feedback. We are trying to "do the right thing". But in return how about an acknowledement that HEY, they DID do the right thing.

And as far as the post about the positive feedback also being on our testimonial page....I'm not sure what the point is. We got positive feedback, and placed those positive experiences on our website. Why would that be strange, they ARE one in the same.

And for Robin....and all of our customers. We have guarantees, stated on our website, all advertising and emails stating very clearly what our policies are. If you notice we disappeared off this board for quite a while, and like I stated I did not know about this dead snake until I received something from the BBB.

I do have one question though before i decide to refund Robin for the DOA snake. This is an email we received from Robin:

Alright, Sal. You never bothered to tell me that you had sent larger snakes because the smaller ones were in shed. Also, whether you believe it or not, there was ONE in the box. I took EVERYTHING out of the box---every scrap of paper, all the styro---I even ripped the cloth bag open that was in the box to make sure that I wasn't missing something. There was ONE snake in the box.

But in those pictures you posted, everything is completely in tact, even the bag you ripped open. It is very easy for a snake to get lost in all that wrapping.

I have attached pictures of the EXACT type of bag, we had them made for us by a friend, so I have TONS of them, just to show the actual size.

8"wide by almost 12" long


Your snake, according to the picture was just about 30" long. Because there was doubt, I have included pictures of a 32" ratnsnake AND a 32" cornsnake (to show in 2 colors inside the bag, and plus longer snakes by 4") being put into that size bag. (We try to use the smallest bag to avoid all the excess in a box, so the snakes don't get tossed around alot during shipping)

Here's the ratsnake:

Here's the cornsnake:

There's one

There's two

See how nice they fit, and how much room?

So, please answer my questions.

Why did you not contact us when the snake died, our email address and toll-free number is on EVERYTHING? SInce the snake is buried in your back yard, would you be willing to ship the DOA snake back (at our expense) as proof of DOA?

Why did you say you throuroughly checked everything, even ripped open the bag, but everything is still in perfect condition, including the tape we used around the top of the bag?

You obviously intend to get $35 back, and will go through all means to try and prove you are right. Just as we intend to prove there were 2 snakes. So I hope you have the answers for my questions, so you can show you are not out to just get something for free. And maybe for once, we will not be the bad guys.

 

[Wilomn]

You know, alison, I'm going to have to get some hipwaders to read your posts because the [bleep] gets deep whenever you reply.

Robin emailed you on July 22, look on page 17 of this thread and you'll see the email. That is BEFORE you heard from the BBB. Yet another lie alison?

Sure, you could fit 3 or even 4 small snakes in a bag that size, that's not the issue here, and why am I so surprised that you have focused on that instead of the real problem, hmmmmm, can't imagine. You all just messed up again. Yet again. Another time. In perpetuity. Over and over and over. And then you lied about it again, yet again, another time, over and over and over, in perpetuity.

Take care of Tony. Take care of Robin. Then go and figure out why NO ONE HERE believes that you even know what the truth looks like.

As for your "husbands" business that "he didn't even know he had complaints on until he saw Tony's link"(paraphrased but you get the drift I suspect) that has got to be yet another load of fertilizer. Do you expect us to believe that NO ONE ELSE that has been screwed by you guys has not complained? Whether to you or the BBB or somewhere else? If you do....... well does sharp as a sack of wet leather have any special signifigance to you? Perhaps, if you believe the above, it should. Perhaps you don't get it at all.

Lies, subterfuge, disembling, avoidance, and sidetracking, all second nature to crooks. They seem to fit you well.

You have yet again had a chance to make things right and have yet again chosen not to. Why do you do this? You must know that your lack of ethics is hurting you. Instead of trying to come off as the injured party you should just own up to your mistakes and make them right.

Yeah right, and pigs have wings.

Wes Pollock

 

[Sasheena]

One single comment: I've been buying snakes like crazy (can we say obsessed?) this summer, and have a wish list twice as long as the 15+ snakes I've already purchased. Once I read this thread it didn't matter WHAT upstate exotics was selling, I wouldn't buy. Not if they had 1.2 high red CB ATBs for $5 each would I purchase from them. So yes, it is easy to say that few of upstate's customers ever read the BOI... because so many people never BECOME their customers after reading the BOI.

 

[UpstateExotics1]

Wes, she NEVER emailed us that the snake died. If you read back in her posts she even says she posted that on here.

Since I wasn't reading here everyday then, I had no idea until I received something from the BBB.

I would like to hear her answers to my questions though. And I never said I was NOT going to refund her for the dead snake. I just said before I decide I'd like to hear what she has to say.

 

[Wilomn]

alison, according to the 32 people who have posted with an opinion on you at Reptibid, 7 of them were negative in nature. That is a WHOPPING 22% appx. rate of UNSATISFIED customers.

Are you a government institution in disguise? Appx. 22% is pretty damn high. It's darn near 1 OUT OF EVERY 4 customers you had, note the past tense there, had, not have.

Very interesting.

Wes Pollock

 

[Stardust]

And what about Tony?
Are you going to refund him as well?
I am certain that if you had proof that you refunded him you would have posted it.
I guess I just don't understand why you just don't lay this to rest once and for all and give the man a refund, its over and done with.
I will say that there have been occasions where you have tried to make things right, but what is the saying? It takes a 100 good to correct one wrong? Something like that.
Just cant understand why you wont even acknowledge his name let alone the refund.

 

[The_limey]

try reading it again

if you look it saids is it just me, so yes it was JUST me who thought this was strange. but if you also read that post of mine it

also says "you change the subject" when it comes to showing proof of tonys refund.

and guess what you've done it again, this time trying to show how a yellow headed rat snake and a corn snake can fit in a bag.

all the time it took you to do this little diagram of how you package your snakes could and should of been spent on showing proof of the refund to tony and this thread .



if you HAVE gave a refund to tony it should'nt be that hard to post the proof on this thread, but yet you have ducked and dived changed the subject to one thing after another AGAIN.

and still you have not posted proof of the refund. so please show the proof of the refund, because if you dont this thing will drag on and on and more people will become aware of this thread, and the people who have had bad experience's with you WILL start to post whats happen to them.

hear that flushing sound thats the sound of your reptile Business going down the toilet. now when i open my reptile business i will know not to do it like you have. like i'd be that stupid to try and rip off my customers.


matt

 

[Living Art Reptiles]

Alison’s infamous “I’ve changed; I’ve seen the error of my ways post.”

Hi Alison,
You still don’t get it. You are constantly calling customers liars. These people were your customers. Do you understand the word “customers”? You do not falsely try to pretend to change your spots or stripes which ever you prefer and keep calling customers liars. I was a customer, Joe schmoe according to you and you robbed me and claim you gave me a refund.


Alison, maybe we need to send you to a customer service class? You could have started by addressing all the dying animals you’ve shipped to people and said you apologize and will fully compensate them. Not calling your customers liars. Challenging your customers constantly and calling them liars is not customer service. These people have suffered. The animals suffered!

Alison, pertaining to my refund on 05/01/03, you should have come clean and just refunded me the full amount. But no it’s in your nature to lie and scam. You could have simply said “I am very sorry about any inconvenience and I value you as a customer; I will give you a full refund”. If you had an ounce of decency or sincerity you would have come clean on yesterdays post, the so called (I have seen the error of my ways, I am a changed person post.) But you know full well if you mentioned refunding me you finally would publicly announce you’ve lied all this time. Alison, news flash, everyone knows your lying.

Alison the innocent, the victim, Shall I pour the BS thicker. No let’s try the genuine article. Alison, liar, scammer, con-artist, unfeeling, uncaring, immoral, unethical, fraud. Now this has a familiar ring to it. I could go on, but there is not that much time in a day.



Thank you,
Tony.

 

[gila7150]

What a deal!
Robin already posted a pic of an obviously dead yellow ratsnake beside your shipping box. Now she's being told to dig up a decomposed snake in her yard to ship back to Upstate so they can consider refunding half her money.
Why? Are you going to have a necropsy done on that decomposed snake to determine the cause of death....or are you going to examine that decomposed yellow ratsnake to determine if it's the same one you sent?

Nope, the real answer is that you doubt Robin will bother to dig up a nasty, decomposed snake and ship it back to you. In your twisted mind she's refusing to do what you requested so you don't need to refund her money.

Sounds like Upstate Exotics is circling the drain....maybe that's what they meant when they said they were doing 360's?

 

[Stardust]

Upstate, I see you are on here reading, why aren't you answering all the questions? Why aren't you acknowledging? I thought you were changing, wanting to do the right thing? I want to know what exactly you are going to do for these people to make things right??? Do tell.

 

[geckosunlimited]

The customer is always...

Wait, what is the word. A liar? A cheat? No, no, no! Customers are those people who keep businesses alive. If you constantly berate and belittle your customers, you will eventually be making your case to the voices of reason in your head!

Tony, I applaud your being levelheaded and professional throughout this ordeal.

 

[Seamus Haley]

It's not a customer service issue... not directly anyway...

But the picture with the two snakes held close together over the bag...

Nobody should ever have to hold a cornsnake so that it's got it's mouth half open like a corallus that wants you dead.

In all seriousness now... What the hell are you doing to that animal? Pinching it's spine so hard that you force that kind of reaction?

And you posted these pictures as if you were PROUD of them?!

Sure, we've all seen pics of the species with nastier dispositions needing to be held behind the neck... but not with enough force to injure or cause it pain... and it's a F!@#$%ing cornsnake, there's no need for that kind of approach.



I've said it a few times... I'd rather deal with someone who has had one of those inevitable problems and then handled it correctly than someone who is untested in this regard but... When you don't learn from your mistakes, when you refuse to accept ANY responsibility no matter how damning the evidence is... Well, you're a crook plain and simple.

Someone needs to show Sal (I'm assuming it's Sal, could be Alison though I suppose) how to hold a cornsnake too... Now on top of getting WC animals misrepresented, loaded with parasites, infected with who knows what kind of pathenogens, people also have to worry about some twit who doesn't belong in the business breaking their snake's ribs before sending it out. What a classy way to operate.

 

[whiteblackbird]

Good god

When I said a full 360 I meant to turn things COMPLETELY around.

Yeah, right.

(Ok you all say I keep dodging everything, but why doesn't anyone agree when we HAVE done the right thing.)

Because WE don't have proof. You could easily provide that proof, but you refuse, or are unable, to do so.

(And as far as the post about the positive feedback also being on our testimonial page....I'm not sure what the point is. We got positive feedback, and placed those positive experiences on our website. Why would that be strange, they ARE one in the same.)

Yeah, and if you'll check WhiteBlackbird's feedback on Reptibid and Ebay, you'll see that you are the only people who have ever given me negative feedback. I kept waiting for you to post my positive feedback since I was so prompt with my payment, but you waited until I had posted Neutral, and not Negative, like I would have been justified in doing, feedback for you (in an effort to give you a chance to fix this) and you gave me Negative feedback. Why, because I didn't pretend that there was another snake in there?

(And for Robin....and all of our customers. We have guarantees, stated on our website, all advertising and emails stating very clearly what our policies are. If you notice we disappeared off this board for quite a while, and like I stated I did not know about this dead snake until I received something from the BBB.)

My assumption was, and still is, that you were subscribed to this post, which means you were receiving email notifications about every posting that was made. And if you think I was going to spend MORE of my honestly earned money on a trip to the vet after Elphie's death for an autopsy, you're nuts. Why would I expect you to refund that when you've been completely uncooperative about the rest?

(I do have one question though before i decide to refund Robin for the DOA snake. This is an email we received from Robin:

But in those pictures you posted, everything is completely in tact, even the bag you ripped open. It is very easy for a snake to get lost in all that wrapping.

I have attached pictures of the EXACT type of bag, we had them made for us by a friend, so I have TONS of them, just to show the actual size. )

Uh, Alison, did it occur to you that there was only one bag in the box and in my pic? And that, for that photo, I very stupidly didn't turn the bag over so you could see the rip. And if there was a snake in the bag, wouldn't it have been opened to get it OUT? I mean, looks like you would just ASSUME that the bag was open somewhere, otherwise, according to you, there must still be a snake in it. Hey, I'll tell you how dumb I am: I felt the bag first to make sure there wasn't a second snake in it, and when I only felt what appeared to be newspaper, I thought the bag must be some kind of thing to either help the snake keep warm or to keep him from getting bounced to hell and back. I mean, he wasn't in the bag, just all curled up in the box around some of the newspaper. And just fyi, it's much easier to rip the fabric instead of the tape.

(Your snake, according to the picture was just about 30" long. Because there was doubt, I have included pictures of a 32" ratnsnake AND a 32" cornsnake (to show in 2 colors inside the bag, and plus longer snakes by 4") being put into that size bag. (We try to use the smallest bag to avoid all the excess in a box, so the snakes don't get tossed around alot during shipping)

Yeah, whatever.

(So, please answer my questions.)

I've been trying for a couple of weeks now.

(Why did you not contact us when the snake died, our email address and toll-free number is on EVERYTHING? )

As I previously stated, I believed that you were subscribed to this thread.

(SInce the snake is buried in your back yard, would you be willing to ship the DOA snake back (at our expense) as proof of DOA?)

Sure, as long as I don't get put in jail for sending something like that through the mail. BUT, I would wait until I had the cash in my hand from you before I'd do it. Otherwise, knowing your track record, I'd end up paying for shipping him back out of my own pocket, and you STILL would find a reason to not give me a refund. I said I was dumb, but I'm not stupid. You've already burned me once, twice if you count the feedback, so I'd have to be a total idiot to trust you again. Or maybe you'd like me to dig him up and take another pic so that you can see that he is actually decomposing? You people are seeming odder and odder to me.

(Why did you say you throuroughly checked everything, even ripped open the bag, but everything is still in perfect condition, including the tape we used around the top of the bag?)

Previously addressed.

(You obviously intend to get $35 back, and will go through all means to try and prove you are right. Just as we intend to prove there were 2 snakes. So I hope you have the answers for my questions, so you can show you are not out to just get something for free. And maybe for once, we will not be the bad guys.)

Nope. Actually I want my $75 back. That's how much I sent you. I can post a receipt if you like.

I am sitting here right now feeling completely betrayed and disappointed. I've dealt with a lot of different merchants online for a lot of different things in the past, and never have I had one behave the way you people are. I mean, check my Ebay feedback like I said. The closest I can get is when a woman cheated me out of ten bucks on there one time. This is 7 1/2 times worse, not to mention the toll taken by the death of Elphie and this constant battle to get you to make things right. This has been the most expensive $75 I've ever spent.

 

[whiteblackbird]

previous post

Oops, I made a mistake (and will admit it, unlike some nameless people). My ID on Ebay is mtn.raven. I was a little upset when I was writing that post and forgot that that's about the only place I'm not either whiteblackbird or Mama.

 

[whiteblackbird]

and another thing

To anyone other than Upstate: Do shippers really put both snakes in the same bag, like in your pic? What if they don't get along with each other? Would a person end up with a snake inside a snake?

To Upstate: And I agree with Seamus, although I really don't know much (obviously) about snakes yet. What the heck are you doing to those snakes? Elphie never opened his mouth to me like that except when he was dying. He was a very sweet snake.

 

[Darin Chappell]

I hate to be a party pooper on everyone's attempts at pointing out the errors of the Sal and Alison show, but the fact of the matter is that these two do not care what anyone thinks. They are scam artists, and by the definition of the term, they only go along to get along, and when it no longer suits them, they will do what they can to get your money in their wallets by any means necessary.

Talking to them as if they were actually semi-honest individuals looking for a way to mend their shattered reputation is like telling the weasel just how much better he would be staying our of the henhouse! It may make you feel better, but a weasel will always be a weasel . . .it is his nature.

 

[sarahhaltom]

ok I have to stick my mouth in here for a second. Reason being not only was I a witness to the after opening of robin's snake package, but for my own learning purposes as well since I plan on becoming a snake owner myself.

Question #1
Alison..... why didnt you put the snake in the bag? This blows me away. I know for a fact that the ONE snake Robin did receive was not in there because she was concerned about it and showed me the bag she had TORN open. I asked her what was in the bag when she tore it open and she said newspapers and nothing else. I did think this was odd because even I would not ship a snake in a box with some newspapers so he could flop around and get all banged up? But I DO NOT think you care about the welfare of your animals AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!! Which leads me to my second question.

Question#2....

Why in the heck would YOU ship an animal in a box and mark NOTHING on the outside about the box about the package containing a LIVE animal? Please answer that one because I would really like to know.....I think it is cruel and that the handlers of that box during shipping could easily toss that boix around not knowing what was in it. That my dear, is ANIMAL CRUELTY!

I am appalled that people like you even have pets at all.

Wanting to become a snake owner I would really like to know these answers..........

Sarah

 

[ms_terese]

To clarify the Reptibid feedback

I took a closer look at the Reptibid feedback. The time frame on the comments is from 5/13/03 to 7/25/03......10 weeks or so. In that time:

15 users posted positive feedback. One of those users then followed up with negative feedback.

1 user posted neutral feedback, but it's apparent that such situation has deteriorated to negative feedback.

5 users posted negative feedback.

Realistically then, in 10 weeks time the ratio of happy customers to unhappy customers is running 14 to 6.

Alison, I see your point about not receiving acknowledgement when you "did the right thing" in other situations, although I disagree. People make mistakes, both in action and judgment. This is irrefutable. When those issues come to the BOI and situations are resolved, many members will post appreciation to the responsible party for taking responsibility and making it right. However, when it seems that the mistakes continue to be repeated, and it takes and act of Congress to get them repaired, and then it's only hit and miss......well, those things are no longer looked at as occasional mistakes, but as poor business practices.

14 to 6, in a ten week period. Alison, nobody should be making that many mistakes, and if you made all of them right, you'd be running yourself out of business.