Info US GLOBAL EXOTICS SPCA RAID

[kmarsh]

With Feleipe and the peta guy working for US GLOBal no wonder they had problems. Seems that the moral there is to screen employees much better.. LOL

 

[paulWTAMU]

And *GASP* sometimes what to do about that...is taking it to a freaking vet!
Having vets run fecals on animals like this isn't uncommon at all, and it isn't free (unless a very nice vet donates the service). Now, if you're pointing out that the original agencies dropped the buck and should have taken better care of the critters, I and everyone else agree. But attacking a rescue because it says vet cost are high...which seems to be what you were doing...is inane. The animals were seized and held for some length of time, during which they were not cared for. Now rescues that got those animals are trying to fix them up--which includes vet bills and cost. The rescues that have the animals NOW are not the ones that seized them, and are trying to help fix this charlie foxtrot. they did not start this ball rolling; VARR and CORR didn't initiate any investigations or legal actions, they just got animals dumped on them, and now they're fixing them up.

You didn't at all recognize that sometimes yes, vets are needed--either for equipment or surgical procedures. While they shouldn't be *regularly* needed if decent husbandry is practiced, these animals have had crappy husbandry for an extended period of time. Health problems occur. These rescues may well know what to do, but were sandbagged by the unexpectedly poor condition of the animals, which hadn't been cared for any better post seizure than before.

 

[kmarsh]

CORRECTION they weren't "dumped" on them they CHOOSE to go get 1,100 of them in TN to take to VA. I have no idea who the other one is that You speak of the CORR but either way most, if not all, made the choice to go get or have sent to them, these reptiles. If they couldn't handle them then you just don't do it. Its the same as the hoarders they claim they are trying to save them from. The whole thing is one big disaster after another. Now they are at petco then taken back from petco, on craigslist in NC and VA and God knows where all else, except in the homes they claimed they had already been placed in back when this thing first started.

 

[SERPENTS DEN]

But attacking a rescue because it says vet cost are high...which seems to be what you were doing...is inane.

If a group or single rescuer doesn't have the necessary monetary funds, facility to properly house, feed and provide whatever care which is needed for any said animals perhaps they too are just another part of a problem.

 

[StrictlyExotics]

Now rescues that got those animals are trying to fix them up--which includes vet bills and cost. The rescues that have the animals NOW are not the ones that seized them, and are trying to help fix this charlie foxtrot. they did not start this ball rolling; VARR and CORR didn't initiate any investigations or legal actions, they just got animals dumped on them, and now they're fixing them up.

Paul,

I am pretty sure that the animals in question werent dumped on the rescues simply because they could say no. It seems as though the "rescues" asked to receive animals and not the other way around.

In my opinion, the only place I see these animals being dumped is on the Craigslist pet trade. And, honestly, if someone is picking up 1000+ animals in a raid, they are looking to bring in some BIG dough and possibly some notoriety to themselves. I mean, cmon, if someone is getting 1000 geckos, they better have a ton of cash on hand to get each and every one of them vet care if they are ONLY getting 10.00 per gecko in "adoption" fees.

Now, I dont necessarily disagree with you that some rescues are doing all that they can to help but some, if not most, are just looking to make a cheap buck.

 

[kmarsh]

If it wasn't for the pain of the reptiles this would almost be comical. They take the animals from USG for abuse and lack of vet care and such then the rescues are now sayind they cant afford the vet fees and all without a adoption feel and such. Well Now its not such a easy job as one seemed to have thought it was going to be and now that their hands are full and they are dropping the reptiles like crazy, Maybe this new watch group will look into this fiasco that spca and all the powers that be that took these animals. Like I said, atleast if they were being shipped on to other places they would have most likely had a home and some hope before this long.

 

[Matt K]

Thanks to kmarsh, strictlyexotics, and serpents_den for the coherant posts! I know at least you three understand the deal of it all...

...Someone recently told me something interesting: What may have (should have) happened is to not move the animals at all. Lock down the building (which it was the day of the seizure), not allowing the two owners back in (which they weren't but to collect a few personal things from thier office as I understand it), leave all the animals in place while allowing the 15 or 20 'rescue' personell into the building to care for the animals (medications, extra caging to un-crowd some things, cleaning, etc.) thereby rehabbing the animals on site greatly reducing thier chances of stress response and further mishandling to death, and as the animals came into health then offered to responsible parties, whomever that may have been (zoos, out of state rescue organizations, etc.) so that nobody can say they got in something at deaths door and it died or cost millions to fix. This would have made USG's building the "hospital" and nothing else in this whole scenario would have changed except more of the animals would have survived.... and the owners would still be in NZ or Australia's ranchlands wanted by the authorities.

...just repeating what I heard. Frankly suprised no one really organized this whole thing better from the start.

 

[kmarsh]

THERE WE GO! THAT would definately have made more sense and the courts would have had the authority to have seized the building atleast until this was done. You know dang good and well that they are going to seize it. Then it could have all been done in the open and show what was going on and all but thats why this all looks more like a cover up than a real concern for the reptiles like they have tried to make it out to be. It could have been handled better and thought out except that was NOT their agenda. They did not care about the animals they just wanted to make the big show to the media and stir alot of hype.

 

[paulWTAMU]

What they *needed* to do was ANYTHING to make sure beforehand they had a place for them to get care ASAP, not 3 weeks or better after the fact. How the hell do you seize animals in the name of animal cruelty laws and then LET THEM DIE? SPCA et all screwed this pooch so hard it's anus is 3x larger than it was before.

I'm not defending Global Exotics; some what happened seems to be indefensible even with a PETA plant involved. But it's not like there was a good guy in that debacle...

 

[blueeclectus]

From what I understood from the people who actually went in and collected these animals, the USGE building was so hazardous to HUMAN health that using it as a hospital center would have been impossible. Last I heard, the entire building is going to have to be nuked/torn down. Between trying to maintain the animals in that kind of environment and risking stress by moving them to a new facility, I probably would have moved them too.

My rescue took in 50 animals from this seizure. You are right to say that we were able to specifically request animals, but we were also assured that the SPCA had flown in veterinary specialists from all around the world and that "no animal would be released if it was sick". I specifically asked about even common things like mite infestations and was told that "every animal had been treated".

'lo and behold, I get them home and I have animals who needed eye surgery, animals with URIs, abscesses, and intestinal parasites. Not to mention they are completely unsocialized and emaciated. I count myself among one of the lucky ones who has actually managed to pull in enough donations to cover the hundreds of dollars in vet bills we have already accumulated. In fact, I have even been able to share with other rescuers in my area whose animals came in worse shape than mine! If the SPCA had been better prepared for this maybe some of the animals would have been in better shape when the rescues got them, but don't think for a second that even a majority of the illness and injury happened while the animals were in the care of the SPCA.

I really don't appreciate being told that I am one of the ones who "dropped the ball" on this when I was very careful about building up funds and lining up foster homes and only taking in animals I was sure I could afford to rescue. This seizure is the biggest one of it's kind ever and I think that all the nit-picking and blaming is counter-productive. USGE wont be the last company that ends up getting busted so it's important to learn from this instead of childishly pointing fingers.

It's also disappointing to see so-called rescue people who don't understand that 501c3 status means absolutely nothing about a rescuer's experience or credibility. I can't be the only one here who has seen rescue after rescue shut down for hoarding and cruelty, all of them 501c3s. I have been in operation for 8 years now and am not 501c3, but I can proudly say that I am more capable than many rescues who do have that happy status. It's for tax write-offs, nothing more. The tax man does not come out and make sure you are taking care of your animals properly when you are tax-exempt.

I also want to point out that using Craigslist to generate interest for my adoptable animals is something I have been doing since the very beginning. With one advertisement in our local pet section I can reach more people than a year's worth of manning a booth at weekend adoption events and shows. It's way cheaper and way more effective. By linking people from Craigslist to my Petfinder I can get thousands more views on my animals and the number of applications for our listed critters skyrockets. I don't see anything wrong with this at all because we still have an adoption application, an adoption contract, and I still check references and deliver animals in person in order to complete a home check. I'm sure that there are some "rescues" who use Craigslist to rehome animals to the first person with the cash, but please be careful to not stick your nose up at every rescue who happens to advertise on Craigslist (or any other local online classifieds).

 

[kmarsh]

Well Rebecca from what I gather neither of us knows much about the building but on THIS site there have been several people that have gone to that building and not seen the situations that you speak of. Atleast that is what was reported here so, I won't go into debate with you over that. They also didn't see the horrid conditions that were spoken of and since we all know how much SPCA loves to blow things out of proportion then forgive us that we dont beleive all that has been reported. I don't know US GLOBAl, never done business with them or have any thing in common with them but I do take offense to how this whole thing has been handled from start to finish. I am ANGRY that my rights are being legislated to be taken away from me for fear and misunderstanding because a bunch of spca and peta and hsus can sit back and use the money they scam people out of in order to do such things with all while being tax exempt and spending so little in taking care of the animals they claim they help.
Maybe Rescues are getting some flack because of this too but I have read these so called contracts and you know what they are worthless at making sure the end results are what they are claimed to be. People can lie, and you cant home visit everyone that wants a animal. But with the current situations as they are, anyone that would agree to let ANYONE into their home to inspect just to adopt a reptile would be a FOOL. Anyone that would sign a contract and honestly agree to let someone be able to come at anytime and recheck would again be a FOOL. So therefore most that WOULD sign are either lieing or a fool and I wouldnt want them caring for a reptile. It is too dangerous these days and frankly I wouldn't trust a soul coming and checking up on me and no one else should either. There is not this much checking up on done when adopting a child other wise we wouldnt have so many cases of child abuse. There is hardly a right way to do this but ya know, along the way there are a lot of good people that would help these recsue places and give good home but for fear of your contracts and what we have seen from all these other organizations, we don't and won't. I won't risk the ones I have just to let someone come in and decide what goes on in my home. I draw the line at my front gate with that. I do rescues, I have taken in quite a few souls that need me and came to me broken and in bad shape. All it would take is for some "do gooder" to decide that their problems came because of me instead of knowing the whole story and it would cause a problem for my babies. I know there are others on here that could have this same problem so we have to think of protecting the ones we have taken in to love when they weren't lovable to someone else. So your reasoning doesn't hold water to me and probably a few others on here and that what meets the eye shouldn't be go quick to decide the way things are. Just as with US GLobal. I have no idea if he received the animals in dead, or what the situation is behind alot of the issues they face or what was found at their place. NO ONE will ever tell the truth even if they found out there were answers to some, maybe not all but some of what was a problem there. Those of us that have been on the side of people jumping to conclusions can all relate. I will go a bit further and hope that I am not skating on thin ice, but some on here talked of having to cull bad snakes from litters and how they had frozen some of them. First thought to many is how horrible and yet there is reasons behind that thinking. BUT heaven help if one of these home check folks came and found that. Does that mean they are horrible people that freeze snakes for the fun of it? What conclusion do you think they would have jumped to. Would they be allowed to adopt? I have a few beardies that came to me missing limbs because they got in fights as little guys and the pet supply place was going to put them down and I asked to take them in? does that make me a bad canidate when you come here and look and see beardies that have missing feet or arms. They are loved and will live out their lives here. IF I own a beardie and you find out does that mean I am a breeder so therefore I can't have have another beardie because they may breed?
There is no perfect answers or solutions. But I feel you exclude alot of good homes with the policies that alot of rescue operations contracts. AS the old saying goes, locks are only there to keep the honest out. A true theif doesnt care about your locks (contracts).

 

[WebSlave]

If the SPCA had been better prepared for this maybe some of the animals would have been in better shape when the rescues got them, ........

Better prepared? How long was SPCA planning and prepping for this bust? Surely they KNEW what to expect when they confiscated those animals, don't you think? Perhaps that part was just irrelevant and insignificant to them.... Which gives pause for thought if you look at this from the perspective that perhaps the welfare of those animals was NOT the primary incentive for the raid of USGE after all. Which evidence sure does seem to point to.

Didn't I read somewhere that the SPCA (or some organization) donated a sizeable chunk of change to the local government to help encourage them to actively prosecute the charges? Is that a verifiable fact, or just hearsay?

 

[paulWTAMU]

Rich; I do not think that she was defending the SPCA. It's very possible to prepare for something for a long time and STILL be unprepared for it (witness some of the offensives in WWI). I imagine that's what happened but I really don't know for sure. What I do know is that USFW/SPCA got involved way over thier heads, and after the fact rescues are trying to help and getting overwhelmed. If ya'll want them to do NOTHING and let the animals die rather than charge fees and aks for donations...well OK. They're doing an imperfect job because the alternative is worse. Blame SPCA et all for the initial seizure.

 

[rosebud945]

Better prepared? How long was SPCA planning and prepping for this bust? Surely they KNEW what to expect when they confiscated those animals, don't you think? Perhaps that part was just irrelevant and insignificant to them.... Which gives pause for thought if you look at this from the perspective that perhaps the welfare of those animals was NOT the primary incentive for the raid of USGE after all. Which evidence sure does seem to point to.

Didn't I read somewhere that the SPCA (or some organization) donated a sizeable chunk of change to the local government to help encourage them to actively prosecute the charges? Is that a verifiable fact, or just hearsay?

Rich, your question is a good one. This is NOT about the small rescues that are now handling the care of these animals. This whole discussion of what small rescues like mine and Rebecca's are doing with the animals now is ridiculously OFF TOPIC! We should be focusing on why and how this happened. No, the SPCA was not prepared to handle 26,000 animals, most of which have very specialized care that they obviously did not provide in the six weeks that they had them. They also seemed to have cross contaminated. The SPCA needs to examine its protocol and procedures for doing what it claims to be in the business of doing: helping animals.

HOWEVER, the SPCA did not give 100 fire skinks the bacterial infection that I and other rescues are treating. They did not give the dragon agamas the external bacterial dermatitis that I just finished treating. They did not give the yarrows the red mite infestation that killed several and still has half of the ones that I am rehabbing anemic and critical.They did not give the snakes the IBD and mite infestations or the geckos the wasting disease, though they are at least in part responsible for the spread of these illnesses. Those problems plus the injuries started at USGE. They just didn't treat after they got them.

I am a herp lover. I do not embrace the idea that no one should keep pets, or that import should be banned, and I cannot imagine my life without my lizards, and birds. No one loves their lizard buddies more. But Jasen Shaw should NOT be a poster child for the right to keep reptiles! He is a very BAD example. He did not provide enough manpower to accommodate this many animals, plain and simple. Paul, if you support private breeders, then bravo! We should all do that, but if we as a community cannot take a hard, objective look at our own business practices police ourselves and come up with community standards and built in repercussions and social pressure to prevent a company like USGE from getting over its head and giving fodder to those who would legislate against us, then this will happen again.

 

[StrictlyExotics]

HOWEVER, the SPCA did not give 100 fire skinks the bacterial infection that I and other rescues are treating. They did not give the dragon agamas the external bacterial dermatitis that I just finished treating. They did not give the yarrows the red mite infestation that killed several and still has half of the ones that I am rehabbing anemic and critical.They did not give the snakes the IBD and mite infestations or the geckos the wasting disease, though they are at least in part responsible for the spread of these illnesses. Those problems plus the injuries started at USGE. They just didn't treat after they got them.

How do we know where these problems started? You say these problems "started" at USGE, is this fact or speculation? Could it be that this is in part, a problem with WC animals rather than the importer. Dont get me wrong, USGE is largely at fault for the animal(s) conditions, however, most of the problems you mention could have started in between capture and seize.

 

[rosebud945]

Dean, the bacterial infection that we are treating in the fire skinks is not something that would have come in with wc animals. It is husbandry related and has been present in these animals for a long time.

But yes, some of it did come in on the wc animals, and this is one thing that the industry as a community needs to examine! You just pass that kind of problem off on the person who buys the animal or allow those illnesses and parasites to be spread to other animals in your facility?? I know people who buy and sell wild caught animals. They are much smaller scale than USGE, but they treat the wc animals before they put them on the market. Shouldn't that be a standard practice? It might cost a little more in the short term, but will raise the worth of the animals that you sell and create not only customer appreciation but will keep people like the SPCA off your back.

 

[lanceheads]

Dean, the bacterial infection that we are treating in the fire skinks is not something that would have come in with wc animals. It is husbandry related and has been present in these animals for a long time.
But yes, some of it did come in on the wc animals, and this is one thing that the industry as a community needs to examine! You just pass that kind of problem off on the person who buys the animal or allow those illnesses and parasites to be spread to other animals in your facility?? I know people who buy and sell wild caught animals. They are much smaller scale than USGE, but they treat the wc animals before they put them on the market. Shouldn't that be a standard practice? It might cost a little more in the short term, but will raise the worth of the animals that you sell and create not only customer appreciation but will keep people like the SPCA off your back.

That very well could be a husbandry problem from the Exporter, and not from USGE. Exporters are notorius for "pancaking" animals in filty cages before shipping them. The stress of animals crowded in holding containers exacerbates diseases from unkempt holding cages, thus arriving malnourished, dehydrated, etc. at the Importers facility, so I would not be to quick to lay everything at USGE feet.


Randal Berry

 

[WebSlave]

Dean, the bacterial infection that we are treating in the fire skinks is not something that would have come in with wc animals. It is husbandry related and has been present in these animals for a long time.

But yes, some of it did come in on the wc animals, and this is one thing that the industry as a community needs to examine! You just pass that kind of problem off on the person who buys the animal or allow those illnesses and parasites to be spread to other animals in your facility?? I know people who buy and sell wild caught animals. They are much smaller scale than USGE, but they treat the wc animals before they put them on the market. Shouldn't that be a standard practice? It might cost a little more in the short term, but will raise the worth of the animals that you sell and create not only customer appreciation but will keep people like the SPCA off your back.

I'm not really sure most people even understand the business model of wholesalers and importers, much less the basic pet trade, from what I am reading here in this thread. The ONLY people who tend to hang onto animals for any length of time are the actual breeders of captive animals, and the end users who buy the animals as pets or living knick-knacks. Everyone else inbetween really just wants to move the animals in and out of their hands as quickly as possible. Why? Well because living animals generate costs as long as they are in their hands, and the liability that that may die before being moved onto their customer. The people buying these animals for resale REALLY want to move the animals along as quickly and as humanly possible for those reasons.

So in the above example concerning the fire skinks, if they had that infection "for a long time", then quite certainly they had it before ever coming into USGE's hands. Jasen likely was not breeding them, nor was he keeping them for personal pets. He likely got them in as a bulk group, and quite likely was trying real hard to sell them all as soon as possible so losses wouldn't reduce or completely eliminate his profit margin.

Now as for "standard practices", yes they are in place, but not at every level in the trail that leads from the animal being captured in the wild and ending where the animal ends up in the hands of the final customer. It is "common" knowledge that if you buy a wild caught animal from anyone, then it is your responsibility to assume that it will have medical issues and take precautions to not only treat those animals, but to also safeguard the rest of your animals by engaging suitable quarantine procedures. This "standard practice" starts at the end of the end user side of the trail, and can also be SOP for some of the better "middle men" who will buy from the actual importers and larger wholesales, who will advertise that they "hand pick" their animals and thereby obtain the better samples available They also will apply medical and manual procedures to try to rid those animals of internal and external pathogens. The closer you get to the actual SOURCE of the animals, the less and less likely that any such procedures or practices will be incorporated. Simply because the volume of animals, the amount of hoped for time those animals will be in their care, and the targeted profit margin designed to move large numbers of animals out QUICKLY will tend to preclude those kinds of costs and efforts being applied at those facilities.

For better or worse, THIS has been the state of the wild caught imported chain of procurement for quite a long time. It is common knowledge that speed is of the essence in getting those animals to their final destinations, as the quicker they get to someone who can and will provide proper care, the more likely it is that those animals will survive and thrive. There are people who will not buy wild caughts because of the trials and tribulations involved, and know that cheap imports have a plethora of risks involved. There are shows that will not allow wild caughts to be displayed for sale to the public, because the promoters know that those animals really are not very well suited to be sold directly to the public and try to prevent the likely disappointments that can result from taking place. That is the nature of the beast. Most people who KNOW the business know that this is the way it is.

Just as I am sure that no one really wants to think about where those steaks and hamburgers, or the chicken drumsticks and pork chops really come from that we see in the supermarket, and really don't want to see videos and photos of the entire process from one end to the other, the ugly side of a lot of things really are necessary for the entire process to take place. Heck, for that matter would we all want to see photos and videos of the literal slave markets in China in the process of making goods we buy at Walmart? Probably not, but not seeing them doesn't mean they aren't there. Unfortunately, the pet trade just had this ugly side of it go front page news on us.

I am not trying to condone the system, just stating that the pet trade is the way it is simply because that's the way it has always functioned. Captive breeding has not been around nearly as long as just importing animals for the pet trade. Matter of fact, the zoos NEVER used to do any captive breeding at all, and would just constantly refresh the stock they had with newer animals as the older and sick ones died off. Do you really think people were breeding hippos, elephants and giraffes for the zoos years ago? How many of those animals either didn't survive the journey from wild caught to zoo exhibition, or else arrived in very poor shape needing the zoo vet to make extraordinary efforts to make the animal display worthy? How many of you older folks grew up reading those account by Gerald Durrell collecting scores of wild caught animals? Where do you think those animals were headed for?

Sorry, but I believe the various "societies" attacking the pet and animal trade in general are just well cognizant of the weak link in the chain and are attacking at that juncture knowing that it is likely to bring success for whatever their ultimate goals actually are. Can the seamy side of the animal trade change before it gets choked off by legislation? Perhaps. But not without some major sacrifices all across the board. The end user just will not be able to expect to get "cheap" animals any longer, simply because the costs will go up exponentially in order to get the animals to them in suitably and acceptably healthy condition. If they are not willing to pay that price, then the pipeline will simply choke off and die as the business will not be there to sustain it. The pet trade is ultimately dictated the demands of the people who buy those animals from them. If they get priced out of the market because of the demands made on the pipeline needed to feed that market, then it just flat out will not survive.

 

[lanceheads]

I'm not really sure most people even understand the business model of wholesalers and importers, much less the basic pet trade, from what I am reading here in this thread. The ONLY people who tend to hang onto animals for any length of time are the actual breeders of captive animals, and the end users who buy the animals as pets or living knick-knacks. Everyone else inbetween really just wants to move the animals in and out of their hands as quickly as possible. Why? Well because living animals generate costs as long as they are in their hands, and the liability that that may die before being moved onto their customer. The people buying these animals for resale REALLY want to move the animals along as quickly and as humanly possible for those reasons.

So in the above example concerning the fire skinks, if they had that infection "for a long time", then quite certainly they had it before ever coming into USGE's hands. Jasen likely was not breeding them, nor was he keeping them for personal pets. He likely got them in as a bulk group, and quite likely was trying real hard to sell them all as soon as possible so losses wouldn't reduce or completely eliminate his profit margin.

Now as for "standard practices", yes they are in place, but not at every level in the trail that leads from the animal being captured in the wild and ending where the animal ends up in the hands of the final customer. It is "common" knowledge that if you buy a wild caught animal from anyone, then it is your responsibility to assume that it will have medical issues and take precautions to not only treat those animals, but to also safeguard the rest of your animals by engaging suitable quarantine procedures. This "standard practice" starts at the end of the end user side of the trail, and can also be SOP for some of the better "middle men" who will buy from the actual importers and larger wholesales, who will advertise that they "hand pick" their animals and thereby obtain the better samples available They also will apply medical and manual procedures to try to rid those animals of internal and external pathogens. The closer you get to the actual SOURCE of the animals, the less and less likely that any such procedures or practices will be incorporated. Simply because the volume of animals, the amount of hoped for time those animals will be in their care, and the targeted profit margin designed to move large numbers of animals out QUICKLY will tend to preclude those kinds of costs and efforts being applied at those facilities.

For better or worse, THIS has been the state of the wild caught imported chain of procurement for quite a long time. It is common knowledge that speed is of the essence in getting those animals to their final destinations, as the quicker they get to someone who can and will provide proper care, the more likely it is that those animals will survive and thrive. There are people who will not buy wild caughts because of the trials and tribulations involved, and know that cheap imports have a plethora of risks involved. There are shows that will not allow wild caughts to be displayed for sale to the public, because the promoters know that those animals really are not very well suited to be sold directly to the public and try to prevent the likely disappointments that can result from taking place. That is the nature of the beast. Most people who KNOW the business know that this is the way it is.

Just as I am sure that no one really wants to think about where those steaks and hamburgers, or the chicken drumsticks and pork chops really come from that we see in the supermarket, and really don't want to see videos and photos of the entire process from one end to the other, the ugly side of a lot of things really are necessary for the entire process to take place. Heck, for that matter would we all want to see photos and videos of the literal slave markets in China in the process of making goods we buy at Walmart? Probably not, but not seeing them doesn't mean they aren't there. Unfortunately, the pet trade just had this ugly side of it go front page news on us.

I am not trying to condone the system, just stating that the pet trade is the way it is simply because that's the way it has always functioned. Captive breeding has not been around nearly as long as just importing animals for the pet trade. Matter of fact, the zoos NEVER used to do any captive breeding at all, and would just constantly refresh the stock they had with newer animals as the older and sick ones died off. Do you really think people were breeding hippos, elephants and giraffes for the zoos years ago? How many of those animals either didn't survive the journey from wild caught to zoo exhibition, or else arrived in very poor shape needing the zoo vet to make extraordinary efforts to make the animal display worthy? How many of you older folks grew up reading those account by Gerald Durrell collecting scores of wild caught animals? Where do you think those animals were headed for?

Sorry, but I believe the various "societies" attacking the pet and animal trade in general are just well cognizant of the weak link in the chain and are attacking at that juncture knowing that it is likely to bring success for whatever their ultimate goals actually are. Can the seamy side of the animal trade change before it gets choked off by legislation? Perhaps. But not without some major sacrifices all across the board. The end user just will not be able to expect to get "cheap" animals any longer, simply because the costs will go up exponentially in order to get the animals to them in suitably and acceptably healthy condition. If they are not willing to pay that price, then the pipeline will simply choke off and die as the business will not be there to sustain it. The pet trade is ultimately dictated the demands of the people who buy those animals from them. If they get priced out of the market because of the demands made on the pipeline needed to feed that market, then it just flat out will not survive.

Everything Rich said about the zoo field is correct also.

Great post Rich!

Randal Berry

 

[rosebud945]

Rich,
Thank you for this post. I have started becoming aware of the chain, but as someone who deals with those cheap pets that become disposable because of the low cost and high numbers of some species that are brought in and are then dumped on local animal controls or vets or pet stores who then call me to take them in and nurse them back to health, I would be okay with higher prices.