Venomoidinc.com Inquiry

[Gary O]

Wow...a thread asking for business dealings and not an ethics debate devolves into just that.

Gotta love Fauna lol.

If you read the OP next post about my posts he said it is what he was looking for. Hence the reason we were talking.

 

[Gary O]

Yeah, reading this stuff, I can't help but wonder if a signed contract is even necessary. Probably venomoids would be suitably covered under the legal concept of STRICT LIABILITY anyway. So anyone engaging in performing venomoids would quite likely be fully responsible for any mishaps caused by their "product" regardless of timeframe or circumstances outside of their direct control. What they are doing is inherently and knowingly risky to their customers.

Great point! And I wonder what they would say about that?

 

[Gary O]

GBCOP

No worries my friend. I tried my best to leave my opinion about why they should not be done. I just offered the danger points.

 

[devenomized]

David,

Very well said. However, I do encourage you to contact Dr. Fry (www.venomdoc.com) and ask his expert opinion on reparative regrowth of venom ducts on elapids as well as vipers. In addition, please ask him about reparative regrowth of venom glands after a full adenectomy performed by a licensed DVM. I hope your findings will provide useful information on how a full adenectomy followed by a full ductectomy will render a venomous snake non-venomous for its entire existence. In terms of diet, digestion, and the lack of venom, please ask him those questions too. Dr. Fry is not a fan of venomoids; however, he is a very knowledgable professional.

Finally, on the ethical issues of venomoids, please contact AVMA to find out their opinion on venomoids.

Gary,

Come on old friend. When are you going to let it go? I am not here to debate venomoids, but when i see a fauna member who beleives members at Fauna have provided him guidance and education on this topic, I felt I needed to give David my .02. But for you Gary, I can only recommend you read the "Serenity Prayer" and learn to accept.

FYI: Gary is a very passionate fauna member who is very talented with reptiles as well as other subjects.

Stop by Hamburg in October

Gary,
I did not miss your point about the vet being human, at all! If anything you have solely convienced me NOT to purchase an animal from Venomoid Inc.

And honestly. You are right, it would be stupid to get tagged by a venomoid Atrox and NOT go to the hospital.

And I haven't experienced or seen anyone from Venomoid Inc freehandling snakes, but the way Jeremy keeps responding to concerns is... Well Scary.

Here is a E-mail I received back from him.
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David,
I appreciate the info, but what you sent is no different then someone's "tall tail" story. What I was looking for is a scientific paper or published with research. As for our stand we recommend that they snakes are treated like there venomous counter parts and are tested at least yearly. As I said we have not had a problem in 8+ years. I would tell you that the stories of regrow / regeneration are just that, stories. Most likely a procedure that was not done correctly by a professional or just not done and sold as a venomoid.

Jeremy
www.venomoidinc.com
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My experience with hot snakes is only limited to copperheads, cotton mouths and the WDB Rattlers. And as much as I adore Albino Monacle Cobras, Puff Adders, Eyelash Vipers, ect. I honestly can't see myself going out and actually purchasing one as I have ZERO training with them. I know some people who mentor with Elapids start out with elapids, but it would honestly be foolish of me with my experience of local venomous animals to make such blind broad jump.

I know the subject of Venomoid's is a highly debated ethical subject and almost everyone in the herp community has an opinon on the subject. I'm glad the members of Fauna assisted me with my homework. I was all for Venomids as it was my unresearched opinon that the procedure was safe and the animal was unable to produce venom from now on. And from everything I've learned here, and the almost exact same response over and over again from Venomoid Inc, I'm not going to be doing business with them or anyone else for a venomoid.

Thanks again Gary and everyone else that contributed to my inquiry,

David Beaver

 

[devenomized]

I am against Voids probably more then most. But I want to clear up a myth.

If the gland is removed 100% it can not regenerate. But if any gland is missed it can repair itself and has been seen in elapids.

Can you please provide documentation for the finding about a partially removed gland?

I believe ductectomies on elapids were proven to show reparative regrowth if i'm not mistaken.

 

[Gary O]

Hey it is the free handler himself................... Before I even get into any talk with you.

Why have you, or Venomoid Inc free handled gaboons and Rhinos at the hamburg show with in a few feet of walking customers?

You say that venomoid Inc treats the voids like hots. I seen this with my own eyes. I was there. And many other well respected hot keepers seen it.

 

[Gary O]

Can you please provide documentation for the finding about a partially removed gland?

I believe ductectomies on elapids were proven to show reparative regrowth if i'm not mistaken.

Dr Brian frye has it in some papers he has written. Another vet that Tanith knows also has a report about it. I do not have them handy at this time.

But I say again the Vet will nto sign a contract saying that the snake will never become venomous again.

Do you know also that I had two snakes pulled out infront of me and the person wanted to hand them to me. One was a red spitter and the other was a blacktail Rattlesnake. Then I seen Venomoid Inc holding Gaboons and Rhinos during the show.

WTF dude. Really at a show?

 

[Gecko_Den]

Dr Brian frye has it in some papers he has written. Another vet that Tanith knows also has a report about it. I do not have them handy at this time.

But I say again the Vet will nto sign a contract saying that the snake will never become venomous again.

Do you know also that I had two snakes pulled out infront of me and the person wanted to hand them to me. One was a red spitter and the other was a blacktail Rattlesnake. Then I seen Venomoid Inc holding Gaboons and Rhinos during the show.

WTF dude. Really at a show?

Gary you should have reported it to the show promoters. The rules, as laid out in the vendor agreement, regarding venomous are very specific for vendors at the Hamburg show. The animals are supposed to be contained at all times and away from the general public.

 

[devenomized]

Hey it is the free handler himself................... Before I even get into any talk with you.

Why have you, or Venomoid Inc free handled gaboons and Rhinos at the hamburg show with in a few feet of walking customers?

You say that venomoid Inc treats the voids like hots. I seen this with my own eyes. I was there. And many other well respected hot keepers seen it.

Gary,

Gabinos, not Gaboons or Rhinos, but maybe you weren't close enough to see the difference. Those were my snakes and they were there for display. Did you see the leucistic cobra? Stop by in October and I'll show you. Don't be a stranger.

 

[devenomized]

Dr Brian frye has it in some papers he has written. Another vet that Tanith knows also has a report about it. I do not have them handy at this time.

But I say again the Vet will nto sign a contract saying that the snake will never become venomous again.

Do you know also that I had two snakes pulled out infront of me and the person wanted to hand them to me. One was a red spitter and the other was a blacktail Rattlesnake. Then I seen Venomoid Inc holding Gaboons and Rhinos during the show.

WTF dude. Really at a show?

Gary,

Do you know why I know you are telling a story? Because I was at the show this past Saturday and I ran the last two shows. We haven't sold a red spitter in over 6 months. The last blacktail rattlersnake we sold was a special order that was never at a Hamburg show and we do not allow customers to handle venomoids. If you really were at the Hamburg show last weekend, you would have seen a Leucistic cobra and a Gabino, but the more I read your posts, I think you weren't at the show.

I have personally handle a few specimens from our own collection at the Hamburg show. Our collection includes Gaboons, Gabinos, leucistic cobras, and other species. Gary, one thing is to come here an dispute a finding, present documented facts, or discuss a topic like an intelligent reptile hobbysts; however, if you think fabricating stories or imaginary incidents is going to make a difference, you need to learn to accept.

I'll make it simple for you to understand. We have learned to respect everyone's opinions here at Fauna. We have learned to listen and understand from very talented fauna members in some cases including yourself. We have learned to accept the opions expressed by several people regarding ethical issues as well as technical documented facts on venomoids. We are professionals that come to an online forum to discuss topics as professionals. We do not come to Fauna to insult individuals. We do not come to Fauna to fabricate stories or facts. We strongly believe that venomoids are nothing but an choice for a reptile hobbysts interested in purchasing a venomous snake. We hope that with the information provided on our websites and people who actually take the time to attend a show and speak in person that a potential buyer will have a better understanding about venomoids. We are not here to change the way you think or tell you that you should only possess venomoids. We want the same respect we give you. With that said, please take the opportunity to stop by the table at the next Hamburg show and I'll buy you lunch.

I'll be happy to talk to you about venomoids and i'm sure I'll have many questions about tree vipers for you.

your friend

 

[devenomized]

Gary you should have reported it to the show promoters. The rules, as laid out in the vendor agreement, regarding venomous are very specific for vendors at the Hamburg show. The animals are supposed to be contained at all times and away from the general public.

Feel free to express your concerns to the show promoters who have given us permission to display our collection behind our table; however, if the rules have changed and we are told to keep our venomoids contained at all times, then we will comply with that policy change.

 

[Gary O]

Gary,

Gabinos, not Gaboons or Rhinos, but maybe you weren't close enough to see the difference. Those were my snakes and they were there for display. Did you see the leucistic cobra? Stop by in October and I'll show you. Don't be a stranger.

I am sorry to say I feel you are a liar now. You have stated to me that you believe in treating voids as hots. I have even stuck up for you on this point on other fourms.

I seen you showing off these hacked up snakes. It made me sick. And it was not behind the table. The snake was above the table if a child not knowing went to touch it they could have.

I will not stop by the venomoid inc table. i have been to hamburg many times. I talk to many of my friends on the venomous side. I would have loved to talk to you but after seeing this display I feel that you are a danger to the hobby. Moreso then you think.

You said that you removed your posters of freehandling voids becuse you agreed it looked bad. Now you free handle voids to show off.

Sorry. But no thank you. You lied right to me saying you felt that voids should be treated as hots.

That made me very upset that day. The same day voids were shoved in my face becuase the person thought it was cool to have a red spitter that did not bite that he bought for his CHILD to hold.

I am getting upset now. I will stop

 

[Gary O]

Gary,

Do you know why I know you are telling a story? Because I was at the show this past Saturday and I ran the last two shows. We haven't sold a red spitter in over 6 months. The last blacktail rattlersnake we sold was a special order that was never at a Hamburg show and we do not allow customers to handle venomoids. If you really were at the Hamburg show last weekend, you would have seen a Leucistic cobra and a Gabino, but the more I read your posts, I think you weren't at the show.

I have personally handle a few specimens from our own collection at the Hamburg show. Our collection includes Gaboons, Gabinos, leucistic cobras, and other species. Gary, one thing is to come here an dispute a finding, present documented facts, or discuss a topic like an intelligent reptile hobbysts; however, if you think fabricating stories or imaginary incidents is going to make a difference, you need to learn to accept.

I'll make it simple for you to understand. We have learned to respect everyone's opinions here at Fauna. We have learned to listen and understand from very talented fauna members in some cases including yourself. We have learned to accept the opions expressed by several people regarding ethical issues as well as technical documented facts on venomoids. We are professionals that come to an online forum to discuss topics as professionals. We do not come to Fauna to insult individuals. We do not come to Fauna to fabricate stories or facts. We strongly believe that venomoids are nothing but an choice for a reptile hobbysts interested in purchasing a venomous snake. We hope that with the information provided on our websites and people who actually take the time to attend a show and speak in person that a potential buyer will have a better understanding about venomoids. We are not here to change the way you think or tell you that you should only possess venomoids. We want the same respect we give you. With that said, please take the opportunity to stop by the table at the next Hamburg show and I'll buy you lunch.

I'll be happy to talk to you about venomoids and i'm sure I'll have many questions about tree vipers for you.

your friend

Do not call me a liar. Where in my statement did I say that it was you or you sold a red spitter. This was a few months ago. and it was before the show opened. from people just walking around. I never said that venomoid INC sold them.


So again show me where I said that the voids were from you. I said I SEEN YOU GUYS HOLDING THE GABBY AND RHINO. This was all at the MARCH SHOW! Not this last month or ones that you ran blah blah blah but thanks for telling me you are continue to show off this way.

Again I never said the Blacktail or Spitter was yours. The Black Tail was a vendors I will not list his name but he lost about 2K in sales from me that day. and the Spitter was a customer that came with a friend. He pulled it out infront of me when I was talking to the Fred and his staff(Kicks). Bobby one of Fred's employees was there. You can ask him yourself at the next hamburg show.

So again. Do not call me a liar.

 

[Gary O]

Gary you should have reported it to the show promoters. The rules, as laid out in the vendor agreement, regarding venomous are very specific for vendors at the Hamburg show. The animals are supposed to be contained at all times and away from the general public.

Not sure it would do any good.

Funny thing was that day in MARCH so Christian knows the show I am talking about. I also bought a pair of Atrox off a buddy. We went to the hot room to tub them. after we did they "security" knocked on the door and then just opened it and said they must be in there too to watch.

But they allow voids to be freehandled in PUBLIC.

And he did not wait for an answer. he just opened it. there is a big windo in the hot room there. He could have just looked through. he was not upset and he actually agreed that there i not enough room in that room for three people.

Sad huh. They talk to us about tubbing atrox behind closed doors but let free handling go on outside closed doors.

also this was not a show ran by Marty.

I want to vend hamburg but I can not support things like this.

Sam, My friend I wish it was that easy. It looks like certain things are allowed. Maybe money was involved I am not sure. but I say this if one of them voids got lose and bit someone it would end in a bad bad way.

 

[Gary O]

Christian

You do not know how heated I am right now.

1) Again I never said the two Voids shoved in my face where your. Not once. I think I even posted about them in this thread. Like said one was a vendors. The other was a customer that came with a friend. I am not sure if that friend was vending or not. I do not even believe that them two snakes shoved in my face where made by venomoid inc. I never claimed them to be either. These were both adult snakes also.

2) you need to reread before you sit there and say I am making up stories

3) I seen you guys handling them snakes at the MARCh show. I was at my buddies table. Al Coritz.

4) My biggest gripe is that you are freehandling at a public place. Showing off. Or maybe it is a way to sell more snakes? I am not sure but could not care less why you are doing it.

I can not believe that you think it is cool. Maybe it will take a bite toget you to stop. It is said that people react instead of prevent. there is no reason why you should have to freehandle at a show.

i would have talked to you.

But again. MARCH show. But I bet you run that one and can whip out any void you like. What about the vendors around you. What if they said they did not want you doing it? I know for a fact one a few tables down I want to say two tables. Was not happy about it.

Gary

 

[SPJ]

How is it that Dr. Sabatini is licensed in NY as a vet, does the procedure in NY, and keeps and sells these animals when it is illegal to have them in NY?

Also, is he still the "official" vet for the Hamburg show?

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

How is it that Dr. Sabatini is licensed in NY as a vet, does the procedure in NY, and keeps and sells these animals when it is illegal to have them in NY?

Also, is he still the "official" vet for the Hamburg show?

Could be grandfathered in under old permits. Dunno how that works and such.

 

[devenomized]

Gary,

I'm sorry I have failed you. Please learn to accept the things you cannot change. Learn to build more courage to change the things you can and hopefully you will understand the difference.

Venomoid, Inc does very well at every Hamburg show. We provide a choice for people who would like to purchase a venomous snake. You have the right to express your opinion as well as provide guidance to people asking questions about venomoids. It does not matter what subjective opinion you want to put in writing or tell people. At the end of the show, the buyer will make a decision.

Thank you for sharing your opinions, frustrations, thoughts, and "documented" facts.

Please get some rest.

Christian

You do not know how heated I am right now.

1) Again I never said the two Voids shoved in my face where your. Not once. I think I even posted about them in this thread. Like said one was a vendors. The other was a customer that came with a friend. I am not sure if that friend was vending or not. I do not even believe that them two snakes shoved in my face where made by venomoid inc. I never claimed them to be either. These were both adult snakes also.

2) you need to reread before you sit there and say I am making up stories

3) I seen you guys handling them snakes at the MARCh show. I was at my buddies table. Al Coritz.

4) My biggest gripe is that you are freehandling at a public place. Showing off. Or maybe it is a way to sell more snakes? I am not sure but could not care less why you are doing it.

I can not believe that you think it is cool. Maybe it will take a bite toget you to stop. It is said that people react instead of prevent. there is no reason why you should have to freehandle at a show.

i would have talked to you.

But again. MARCH show. But I bet you run that one and can whip out any void you like. What about the vendors around you. What if they said they did not want you doing it? I know for a fact one a few tables down I want to say two tables. Was not happy about it.

Gary

 

[devenomized]

How is it that Dr. Sabatini is licensed in NY as a vet, does the procedure in NY, and keeps and sells these animals when it is illegal to have them in NY?

Also, is he still the "official" vet for the Hamburg show?

New York State Department of Environmental Conservation
625 Broadway
Albany, New York 12233-0001



Please share your findings with others here.

 

[Gary O]

So things you have said in the past were just said to make it look better at that time.

Gotcha.

You say what is needed to get what you want.