Venomoids, the right and the wrong.

[Gary O]

Guys..... Thank you. Makes me see a lot of people see what I have been saying for years.

Oh Ray I never begged you to make the video. Never asked you to have the nsakes bite you. And guess what My friends may have asked you to post it. But like I said I do not control my friends.

Guess what. You abused the snakes and forced them to bite you. Bottom line....

 

[adder]

OK, so some of you (above) rant about human welfare and bite risks of humans.
Our number one pre-occupation is with the welfare of the snakes!
For us this is MOST important and venomoids are venomoids for that reason more than any other!
No tongs for our venomoids and we have happy snakes.
You lot can belt your "pet" snakes with sticks, break bones with tongs and that's OK!
We free handle our snakes and do not forcibly restrain the venomoids in any way - that is the main reason for it - the snake's welfare ... ah I forgot, some of you are into egos and not the snakes themselves.
As for the crap about "oh he has venomoids because he can't handle hots", that's the biggest load of crap I have ever heard.
I'd been catching, keeping, breeding, discovering and naming species of deadly snakes before some of you were born!
Ever heard of Pailsus pailsi?
Mmm, probably not!
Try Pilbara Adders?
Same...
Who was the idiot who discovered those things?
And how many of you have caught ten hots this week (wild and with venom)?, or a similar number last week and every week of summer?
Well I have (only Browns and Tigers this week, 3 and 4 in the world's deadliest stakes), so I think I have a little more authority to raise the issues of safe handling than most if not all the rest here...and claims I can't handle the things safely and without getting a bite are rubbish.
Oh and we didn't use tongs or sticks to catch any this week!
Now as for S373, 273 or whatever number is is, the effects of this will have far reaching effects way beyond the borders of the land of the free and that's why I have been fighting it from here!
Pity someof you lot are apparantly working in favor of the bill rather than against it!
Time IS running out....
ALL THE BEST

 

[Strike_Force_Reptiles]

hmmmm so the surg doesnt hurt the snakes? i think there has to be some pain there dont you? oh thats right Ray u dont think. so you went out catching hots by hand then right? smart ant ya lol. how can you be fighting to defend a bill you dont even know the number to? lol so Ray what bill is S273 that you been fighting to defend? lol wow im impressed you caught some snakes, very good for you. u going to chop them up just so they can bite u too? its people like you that that get people wanting to ban things cause of ur lack of responsible ownership. so you named some snakes lol well hell i could walk out my door stump my toe fall off my step land in the dirt and just happen to find a new bug and name it pooh bear but that wouldnt make me a smart guy and a responsible owner just cause i got lucky cause i fell on my face. smart is being responsible and being responsible means taking all safty measures. showing kids that snakes can bite u is not smart and far from responsible. somewhere i ur own little world i do believe u think u are helping because of it but the reality is if some kid dies from getting bit it could just be because he saw u do it but we will never know and u are too ignorant to believe it could happen. talk all you want but im done wasting my time on you and i believe the others posting here are tired of it too so just have at it and we will just pass ur post by.

 

[Gary O]

Funny thing is he keeps bringing up all the stuff he does. He is bragging about all this stuff. But then says others have egos. I let my actions speak. Dont need to tell people the things I have done. LMAO.....

Keep hacking....... I will just keep keeping.......

Your upset becuase the truth is out. People are not bending over backwords becuase you are here. Like I said dont use sticks grab them a few inches behind the head and slap them untill they bite. It is much better LMAO

 

[adder]

Let's go back to the original reason I posted here...

deep breath....

Venomoids DO NOT regenerate venom. Easy.....

Lets turn the bullshhhht meter off please!

 

[reticguy76]

i think what it all boils down to is animal keeping morals and ethics. obviously a venomoid probably will not regenerate venom, just as a pit bulls or boxer (or whatever breed)) ears will not grow back when cropped, the fact is it is a sadistic, non-needed practice that benefits only the keeper/owner. for me, and id hope everybody else in the world (unfortunately most are not moral and ethical people), morals and ethics in humanity and preservation and respect of these animals would naturally prevent us from taking what comes natural and god gave these animals.
but hey, thats just me.

 

[Alex G]

Let's go back to the original reason I posted here...

deep breath....

Venomoids DO NOT regenerate venom. Easy.....

Lets turn the bullshhhht meter off please!

Famous last words....

 

[SPJ]

Venomoids DO NOT regenerate venom. Easy.....

Lets turn the bullshhhht meter off please!

Then why won't Sabatini guarentee his work?

If the procedure is guarenteed, he should back up his work. He doesn't. Could it be that he knows there could be a regenation issue and wants to CHA in case someone who bought one of his "fixed" snakes gets envenomated? I think so.

You are putting your life on the line (and others) when dealing with a void. You really have no way of knowing if the surgery will render it permanently incapable of delivering a "loaded" bite or not.

Do I think there may be some place for them in educational presentations? Possibly. It may decrease some of the risks BUT void or not, they should still be treated as an intact snake and safe handling techniques should still be used. BTW, free handling is not what I would consider a safe handling technique.

 

[Strike_Force_Reptiles]

Do I think there may be some place for them in educational presentations? Possibly. It may decrease some of the risks BUT void or not, they should still be treated as an intact snake and safe handling techniques should still be used. BTW, free handling is not what I would consider a safe handling technique.

 

[adder]

STF you wrote:
"free handling is not what I would consider a safe handling technique. "
This is common perception and one I share often, BUT from an animal welfare perspective "free handling" is better than sticks, tongs and other forcible restrictions.
We free handle all snakes, including world's deadlest at our snake shows - always - we don;t carry sticks of any sort! and at Snakebusters we put the snake's welfare first and this is what separates us from other snake handlers in Australia - period!
Also it is a commonly known FACT that a snake that has been free handled often and with care and respect, loses the urge to bite (usually), and this is seen in pet colubrids, pythons and dare I say it, .... venomoids, that are free handled daily.
But lets agree to disagree, you are against snake's welfare and I am for it, and that's OK.
While talking venomoids I can say I have managed to get a heap of venom from a pair of venomoids recently by breeding them and getting a heap of babies, all with venom.
Seven Eastern Brown Snake eggs hatched today, 100 per cent hatch rate and both parents have been venomless for years! Another lot are in the incubator as well!
Another snake handler here in Australia has this week, just been carted to hospital in a chopper after getting chomped by a Brown snake here in Australia (while stick handling in a show) and nearly died and that is not some risk I would give my staff, so we only use venomoid (defintion - no venom - ever!) browns.
ALL THE BEST

 

[hhmoore]

you are against snake's welfare and I am for it, and that's OK.

I've got to say that your persistent return to BS comments like this really detracts from your credibility - at least in my eyes. I'm not a fan of tongs for animal manipulation...though I think they are great for grabbing an occasional uneaten prey item or pulling/placing water bowls. I can even agree with comments about "milking" being stressful to the snakes...but proper use of a snake hook is not cruel, and implying that those who disagree with some of your statements are against animal welfare is assinine. If you had enough sense to quit before you , you might actually win a few people over.

 

[reticguy76]

to say it is a "fact" that free handled animals lose their urge to bite is incorrect. the urge may decrease, but they never ever lose the urge. they are and will be wild instinctual animals, no matter how many generations of cbb they are. for example, a family dog still has instincts had times, but if you have the smell of dog food on your hand and you put your hand in front of their face, a high percentage of them will just lick your fingers and wag their tail happily. if you rub your hands on a rat, then stick it in a snakes face, their full wild instinct kicks in and they, a high percentage of the time, will bite.
so, again, to say they lose (usually) their urge to bite is incorrect, they are wild and the urge is always there

 

[Strike_Force_Reptiles]

STF you wrote:
"free handling is not what I would consider a safe handling technique. "
This is common perception and one I share often, BUT from an animal welfare perspective "free handling" is better than sticks, tongs and other forcible restrictions.
We free handle all snakes, including world's deadlest at our snake shows - always - we don;t carry sticks of any sort! and at Snakebusters we put the snake's welfare first and this is what separates us from other snake handlers in Australia - period!
Also it is a commonly known FACT that a snake that has been free handled often and with care and respect, loses the urge to bite (usually), and this is seen in pet colubrids, pythons and dare I say it, .... venomoids, that are free handled daily.
But lets agree to disagree, you are against snake's welfare and I am for it, and that's OK.
While talking venomoids I can say I have managed to get a heap of venom from a pair of venomoids recently by breeding them and getting a heap of babies, all with venom.
Seven Eastern Brown Snake eggs hatched today, 100 per cent hatch rate and both parents have been venomless for years! Another lot are in the incubator as well!
Another snake handler here in Australia has this week, just been carted to hospital in a chopper after getting chomped by a Brown snake here in Australia (while stick handling in a show) and nearly died and that is not some risk I would give my staff, so we only use venomoid (defintion - no venom - ever!) browns.
ALL THE BEST

congrads on the browns! thanks for this post Ray, its the first normal post u made here and thats all we were looking for. here is the thing that we are all saying about venomoids.... what we are saying is just because its a "Venomoid" doesnt make it safe. people do make mistakes and if someone fails to do it proper they still thinks its a venomoid so its labeled as a venomoid but noone knows that it could regenerate because the person messed up. yes "venomoid" means no venom but u have to agree if someone does it wrong "venomoid" could turn back into fully loaded. i dont see anything wrong with using hooks because it is an extention of yourself but i dont agree with using tongs unless there is no other option because of the danger of injuries to the snake. i do understand why you use venomoids for shows as i use venomoids for shows as well but i do not agree at all with free handling. if you must do it do it out of sight of the public and if you do do it in public please let everyone know not to do it many times in your shows. my main concern is the people at my shows, my second concern is myself and then my snake. again thanks for that post, it expresses more of your views than just blasting at people. i will now respond to your posts again

 

[adder]

Dear Strike_Force_Reptiles I use hooks and sticks as an aid for handling venomous snakes regularly and so can't be too opposed to them, BUT, don't kid yourself about snakes liking them.
They tolerate them at best....
Snakes can and do adapt to handling with hands and due to the thermal properties of the human hand (hot in cold and cold in hot, relative to the environment), snakes learn to like being handled, especially in places like where we live (Melbourne Australia) where the ambient temperature is often too cold (usually) and occasionally too hot for snake's comfort.
As a rule, all snakes prefer free handling to hooks, sticks and the like and hence from the animal wefare point of view, free handling always wins.
Ask almost any owner of a python or colubrid, who free handles their pet daily and ask them why they don't use a stick.
ALL THE BEST
ALL THE BEST

 

[Strike_Force_Reptiles]

you show me a python or colubrid that used to be venomous and i will give a little more thought to my next answer

 

[adder]

Dear
Strike_Force_Reptiles
I hate to say this, BUT, minus the venom, snakes generally don't vary as much as people think AND often it's the harmless ones that are more aggro!
PS - I've never had a free handled Death adder bite in over 40 years!

 

[Strike_Force_Reptiles]

minus the venom, snakes generally don't vary as much as people think AND often it's the harmless ones that are more aggro!

yes i agree but what we are getting at is the venomous side of it. we are not talking about aggressive we are talking about possible envenomation. that is the whole point. as u may have read in one of my earlier posts i poked at and played with baby copperheads when i was 5 and they did not bite me but the point i am making is that aggression isnt the problem its the possibility for envenomation. it was dumb of me to poke and pick up baby copperheads at 5 but i didnt know anything about snakes and so i was wondering what they were. at that age like ALL kids if i seen someone else do it i was going to do it. thats the point im getting at. if you free handle venomous, venomoid or hot and a child sees it what do you think they are going to go do? all kids want to act like their hero or act like an adult does. that is my point. im not worried about what you do infront of adults, adults should be capable of exercising common sense, children dont have that knowledge and there for cant separate right and wrong like we can. do you have children? how many times have you are seen someone you know say dont do that to a child and they go do it anyway? the best teacher is actions. you cant tell a child do what i say not as i do because 90% of the time they are going to try to be you and do just what you do. my 14 month old daughter says oh s**t when she falls now, why? because she heard me say it and when i tell her not to say it she just looks at me and says it again and when i spank her for it what does she do? cries and says it again. the point is if i didnt do it she wouldnt have done it so its my fault not hers so now i have to stop saying it to break her of it but if a child gets bit by a venomous snake because they saw you do it it might be too late to break them of it dont u think?

 

[Strike_Force_Reptiles]

WOW after reading what i just posted i completely changed my mind about venomoids and using hots for shows. even if i use a hook kids can get the wrong idea. i wont be using them at shows anymore. hmmm guess even the wise can wise up. guess there really is no reason for venomoids

 

[jparker1167]

Put simply anyone who attacks venomoids used in our context (educational shows daily) endorses ongoing cruelty to snakes through hooks, tongs, tailing and the need to "milk" snakes and force them to bite foreign objects, so that they can get "antivenom" when bitten.

The numbers go against you Gary E Orner Jr.

hooking and tailing are more cruel then cutting a snake open to remove parts of it so you can feel safer keeping it? why not keep something else? something that you don't have to alter for your benefit, like a plastic snake. I have never seen anyone come back with hooks, tongs, and milking as being cruel over venomoid surgery lol that's a first. Wonder how many snakes die while someone is using a hook or tongs or milking them. lol what a moron.

 

[timebider]

I'm just now seeing this thread, so someone else may have already addressed this, but: I see you live in Alexandria, a couple cities over from me. If it is not already illegal to own a venomous snake there (which I actually don't think it is yet), it likely soon will be. Did you see the Washington Post article a while back about the guy whose escaped hots resulted in a major change to Arlington statutes? The article indicated that Alexandria was considering a ban on venomous snakes as well, and naturally there is strong community support. I haven't followed any pending local legislative debates, but did your extensive research extend to considering legal aspects of ownership, current and pending?

That's a real question, the answer to which I'm curious to read, but I also have a comment: your opposition to people using "venom 'grows back'" as an excuse not to perform this procedure is just nonsensical. I doubt "growing back" is the technically accurate terminology for what happens, but it has been shown repeatedly and conclusively that venomoid snakes can and do still produce venom. So. Take that for whatever it's worth to you; you seem to be very set in your "feelings."