Venomoids, the right and the wrong.

[rsellers44]

Getting the procedure done is no differant than having a dogs vocal cords removed, clipping birds wings, or cropping cow, horse and dog tails, all so the pet is more favorable to people. Btw venomoid inc is the ONLY buisness that does the procedure.

 

[Jacobfromoz]

Wow. I'm a newcomer to this forum and still exploring but I just found this thread. I will not go into the venomoid issue as my opinion will probably not make a difference, no matter how eloquently put, as, to be brutally honest, one cannot reason with a person who has his head lodged in his anus. I am truly horrified at the actions of Raymond Hoser, and would like to take this opportunity, as an Australian, to condemn his actions.

 

[Morelia4life]

Ok. Lets see.

Try to make a Gaboon viper into a harmless corn snake. (Check).
Try to make the Gaboon viper as uncomfortable as can be. (check).
Care more about people thinking I am cool then I care about the safety and quality life of my viper. (check).
Spend xxxxx amounts of money to have a surgery on my snake to make him "harmless" so I can finally be man enough to clean his cage after he has sat in his own defication for a month. (check).

Yep. There you have it. Making a hot snake into a corn snake is sooooo cool. I wish I could be that cool. Tomorrow I think I am going to buy a Fierce snake for about $4k and then spend another grand or so or however much it cost so I can try and make it into a corn snake because corn snakes or cool and all but I want a deadly snake but I don't want to handle the deadly snake because I am a little that is too afraid to man up to the venomous snake I bought so I guess I will just degrade his quality of life so I can play with him like a corn snake. YAY!!!!

Leave the venomous snakes alone. If you don't want to handle a venomous snake because you are too afraid of the consequences WHEN you get bit then don't buy them. Venomous snakes are like fish. They are pretty to look at but they are a no go as far as handling. You can handle them when you have to for say cleaning and things but that is it.

People that want to make venomoids just because they are "all mighty man" are pretty pathetic in my book. My two favorites hots are the Gaboon Viper and the Bush Vipers and I would never do that to one if I could keep them. If I got bit by one and I died then oh well, happens. Don't degrade the quality of life of an animal just to suite your own needs. It is beyond selfish and pathetic.

 

[Cat_72]

Getting the procedure done is no differant than having a dogs vocal cords removed, clipping birds wings, or cropping cow, horse and dog tails, all so the pet is more favorable to people. Btw venomoid inc is the ONLY buisness that does the procedure.

Yes....it IS different. None of these are invasive procedures (other than the dogs' vocal cords, and they do not actually remove them...a procedure that most people, in my experience, are pretty non-supportive toward as well). I can't say that I have ever seen people "cropping" horse or cow tails, but even docking a dog's tail originally had purpose well beyond "making them more favorable as pets". Granted, mostly done for cosmetic reason today, and not necessarily one I support either, but still a practice done when the animal is only a couple of days old, heals within a couple more days, and in no way affects the animal's very basic way of life.

Simply put - for the most part, in human terms...you are comparing going to the doctor's office for a quick collagen injection to having major surgery and removal of say....your spleen.

 

[indigos-r-us]

Personally I would never alter an animals normal physical state from the wild. If they are venomous they are interesting to everyone because of the highly evolved mechanism to secure and pre-digest food. The tongue of course is absolutely needed for all reptiles, no one would cut off the tongue I hope. The point is from "my opinion only" is they are not toys or to impress other collectors other than to look at them and talk about how cool they are. I under no circumstances free handle a venomous animal even Gilas. I got bitten by a big breeder I have with a good leather glove on. After 2 bites some of the teeth went through the glove! Never expected that one but I don't alter the Gila for my mistake.

Bill Lamoreaux

 

[GQMedic]

By and large, I am going to preach to the choir, and as to venomoids, why own a hot that's not?

"The cool factor" as I call it, a dangerous thing really, yet predominant if you watch youtube enough, there are some risky hot collectors out there, yet, hot keepers are attracted to hot snakes or we wouldn't have them. There is a beauty in the animals themselves, and there is the beauty of how they eat and live, the power of their venom, the excitement to a hot keeper is intoxicating, memorizing, you could spend your whole life studying just ONE hot snake, and it would not be a wasted pursuit.

The "Not so cool factor", enter the venomoid, the hot that's not. Direct interference with how the animal lives and eats through an invasive surgical procedure that renders the snake into something else IMHO. These aren't fuzzy bunnies to hug and kiss. There are no shortage of species that are NOT hot that one can "snuggle up to" without a "kiss of death". What is the excitement of a venomoid, a mere shell of what it once was, one might as well own a dead and stuffed hot snake. There is a total lack of study in the true nature of the animal, a lack of admiration and respect for a truly magnificent animal.

I own hots for the awe they inspire in me, such grace, such power, so deadly, utterly beautiful. I feed live prey, not because I find joy in the suffering of a rodent, but to observe the complexity of the venom delivery, the behavior of the prey animal and the snake, the amalgam of the equation between predator and prey. The consumption of it's food that sustains it, doing so for the years from yearling to elderly adult in the last days of it's life cycle. Watching it grow to maturity, comparing information as to it's growth, diet, venom response in prey animals, the time between bite and death of it's prey. There is a solid fascination in hot herp keepers in the fact that our animals are in fact HOT. How can you truly have a love affair with a HOT that is NOT?

Well, there are my ramblings, for that they're worth. YMMV

 

[hadenglock]

too keep my opinion on it short, i believe there is no "right" (or ethical) reason to do perform this kind of surgery. It does not benefit the animal in anyway by removing its venom glands, it only benefits the owner. This is just like people having their cats declawed, their dogs ear cropped and tail docked, its just cosmetic surgery as far as im concerned because again it does benefit the animal medically in any way shape or form

 

[indigos-r-us]

I agree with you.

 

[Snakehandler]

Having read this, I am horrified that some one can claim here in Australia there is a law that makes it illegal to display venomous snakes, unless they are venomoids, this is not the case. In Australia it is a violation of he Veterinary Practices Act to perform an operation that has no benefit to the animal (hence tail docking in dogs is banned). We have never needed such animals and have never had a bite in a display or within our own collection which includes Pseudonaja textilis, Oxyuranus, and many other native Australian venomous snakes.

Education about our venomous animals must be done safely and by people who are competent to do so, but this does not mean we need to alter the animals, just the way we do things.

 

[blackandblue_lulu]

I don't really want to debate the venemoid subject, I have done so previously on other forums. But I will say this. Surgeries are done to save lives or improve the quality of life. These are not surgeries but mutilations of the animals. There is no benefit to these operations for the animals, and people who admire them for what they are would never do such a thing. There are far too many non venomous snakes out there for people wanting pets. What next? Cut of a monitors tail so you can fit it in a smaller cage? When you have to mutilate an animal to keep it you are going against the very basic tenets of proper husbandry, fulfilling the animals needs. Such behavior is reprehensible and tantamount to when runaway slaves were hobbled in an effort to prevent them from escaping. If one does not have the capabilities to properly care and house animals then they shouldnt have them.

This is an old thread, and I am just reading to find out more about the subject and people's sides on the procedure.

I admire cobras, but not so much as to own one, or breed it. Unless it was endangered and I was releasing them back into their natural habitat.

Taking out the venom to gain a profit or to get closer is kind of a sick cowardly way ... if you want the cobra, I say respect it's power and face it head on. What was said above was true in my eyes,

If you love the animal, you'd respect what being it is, and not try to change it to fit your needs. It should be its needs you are concerned with.


If you don't agree, I don't dislike you or anything. This is just my stance on the subject. I will always admire from afar, or stare death in the face if I truely want to interact with one.

Mariah

 

[adder]

Snakehandler has made a series of false statements, which need correcting!
1 - He wrote:
"We have never needed such animals and have never had a bite in a display or within our own collection which includes Pseudonaja textilis, Oxyuranus, and many other native Australian venomous snakes." is factually incorrect.
Fact is the company has had a number of serious potentially life-threatening bites, including Paul Fisher (staff) who was rushed to hospital for a Brown snake bite and Simon Watharow former director of the business who had to have a load of tiger snake anti-venom to survive a bite.
2- Fact is, company is in breach of sect 32 of the OH and S Act 2004 every time it displays snakes with venom glands intact in Victoria.
By law in Australia "Education about our venomous animals must be done safely" and with no risk to anyone.
All the best

 

[hadenglock]

Snakehandler has made a series of false statements, which need correcting!
1 - He wrote:
"We have never needed such animals and have never had a bite in a display or within our own collection which includes Pseudonaja textilis, Oxyuranus, and many other native Australian venomous snakes." is factually incorrect.
Fact is the company has had a number of serious potentially life-threatening bites, including Paul Fisher (staff) who was rushed to hospital for a Brown snake bite and Simon Watharow former director of the business who had to have a load of tiger snake anti-venom to survive a bite.
2- Fact is, company is in breach of sect 32 of the OH and S Act 2004 every time it displays snakes with venom glands intact in Victoria.
By law in Australia "Education about our venomous animals must be done safely" and with no risk to anyone.
All the best

Regardless of all of this, do you or do you not free handle venomous (or venomoids) during one of your events?

 

[adder]

Haden, sounds like a troll question.
Anyone who puts the welfare of their snakes first free handles instead of using metal sticks to attack snakes.
It would be patently stupid not to free handle venomoids.
All potential questions about venomoids and ours in particular are answered at the venomoid snake FAQ here
http://www.smuggled.com/VenFAQ1.htm
and note that we have gravid ones here at the moment.

 

[Fangthane]

Anyone who puts the welfare of their snakes first free handles instead of using metal sticks to attack snakes.
It would be patently stupid not to free handle venomoids.

Well, if you're using a hook to "attack" a snake, I think you're going about it the wrong way. I suspect that I'll regret the asking, but how, exactly, did you come to the conclusion that using a hook is harmful? It comes off as little more than a lame justification for taking needless risk while "showing off". Aside from some perceived cool factor, I don't see how freehandling benefits the keeper, or the snake.

 

[adder]

Well Apexpredatorboids, I am sure you don't use a hook to handle your ball pythons?
Why?
They prefer to be handled by hand!
Same for all other snakes.

Now taking things further, there are many good reasons that venomoids are sensible for wildlife displays, not the least being public safety and a legal requirement to guarantee public safety.
You and other posters here may think it's OK to play Russian Roulette with public safety in venomous snake shows, as does an inexperienced business rival who does this often and has had to rush staff to hospital for venomous snake bite as a result.
We don't regard such risk as acceptable or legal!

And save me the lame argument about experts being able to handle venomous snakes without being bitten. Even the best handlers make mistakes. If you can, try asking Luke Yeomans or Aleta Stacey about how they were able to avoid bites and the like from venomous creatures due to their expertise.

Bye for now!

 

[Fangthane]

Well Apexpredatorboids, I am sure you don't use a hook to handle your ball pythons?
Why?
They prefer to be handled by hand!
Same for all other snakes.

I have zero interest in ball pythons, but nice try. I freehandled my non-venomous because the amount of risk involved with their handling didn't necessitate the use of tools. Which is an absolute apples to oranges comparison, when the subject is the proper handling of hots.

Are you honestly trying to make the case that they "prefer" any handling, period, and that it makes any discernible difference to them whether it's flesh or a metal implement? We must have our very own snake whisperer, right here on Fauna, and didn't even know it.

...you are against snake's welfare and I am for it...

Yeah, ok..

My previous comments were purely in regard to, not only your cavalier attitude about endorsing practices which may lead to people thinking it's a good idea to put themselves in needless danger, by freehandling hots, but also concerning what I believe to be your extremely contrived and self-serving rationale behind the endorsement. I don't have a dog in the void vs. hot fight, I just get a kick out of some of the rationalizations.

I think it's a bit disingenuos to claim such concern for a snake's welfare, after forcing it to endure surgery and putting it in such stressful situations as being paraded in front of a crowd. Mutilation=concern? What were you saying about a "lame argument"..?

 

[Tim Cole]

I have been putting on Snake Safety Classes for over 20 years with venomous snakes that are safely contained!

They are in high visibility acrylic towers which make it easy for attendees to view them clearly and safely with no need to perform acts of cruelty.

Can't take the heat?

Get out of the kitchen!

 

[adder]

Tim, how are you?
I don't think forum rules would allow me to post what others have said about your alleged reptile education shows and methods you use to move snakes about.
OK, you don't think metal tongs are cruel?
I'm sure the snakes do!
All the best

 

[Mimmieux]

OK, you don't think metal tongs are cruel?
I'm sure the snakes do!
All the best

Was lurking about this thread for a while and I really need to say something about this.
You neglect the fact that reptiles do not want to be handled AT ALL. Tongs or hands. You could even open up a debate about whether or not reptiles experience emotions or not, because there is plenty of evidence on the latter. They tolerate it if they were raised to become used to being lifted into the air by a giant monster.
I'm quite sure the only thing the snake "wants" is to be left alone in its hide until it's dinner time or breeding season.

 

[adder]

Mimmiex, your comment
"You neglect the fact that reptiles do not want to be handled AT ALL." is a disingenius way to change the subject when you have lost an argument and been unable to show that venomoids are better off being free handled than their tong handled venomous peers.
No one here has argued that snakes like to be handled, however only an idiot would claim a snake prefers to be handled with sticks than free handled by hand.
Furthermore, and you may not be aware of this, but regularly free handled snakes are in fact quite happy being handled gently by people for long periods due to the thermnal properties of the handlers, being close to the preferred temperature of of the snake.
Metal sticks lack these properties.
All the best