venomous dealers out of control

[taphillip]

not sure if I am supposed to post this here or not, so if not I apologize.

I am the Curator of Reptiles at the Black Hills Reptile Gardens in Rapid City South Dakota and I wanted to share the phone call I recieved today.

I got a call from a guy in E. South Dakota. today, who just ordered an E. A. Green Mamba, A Death Adder and 2 albino Monocled Cobras. His questions to me was:
"How dangerous are the bites by these snakes?
Which one is worse?
How do I get them in there cage?
If he were to be bitten, would I care if he used our antivenom?"

He was told by the dealer that if bitten by any of the three, they would knock him unconcious and he would be sick for a couple days, but not to worry about it!

Right after answering a couple of the questions above, I started to ask where he bought them, just as he started to respond his cell phone started to cut out..... he said he would call me back. I think he didn't really like a good a_s chewing so he never called back....

I wish I knew the dealers name....does anyone know who has been selling death adders recently?

Also, I asked him if he had any venomous snake experience and his response was " a couple rattlesnakes "

I can't believe the dealers are that desperate for money to be willing to kill one of there customers!

There needs to be some morality in that buisness! In order to make a couple hundred bucks at most!!!

Outragious!!

If anyone knows of a dealer that has been selling Death Adders, I would love to know who they were, so I can black list them from any future purchases from our zoo as well as pass this story on to all the zoo Curators that I deal with. Which just so happens to be alot!

I posted this here, thinking that most dealers probably visit here occasionally to see if there name is being discussed. So I apologize if this is the wrong place for this.

Terry

 

[snakegetters]

The unfortunate truth is that if somebody talks a good game to a dealer and says they are a legitimate buyer with experience, they can get snakes. No dealer has the resources to investigate anyone's background more thoroughly than this. I am personally just short of anal retentive about whom I will give, sell or trade snakes to, but I'm not a dealer and I can afford to be.

Keep in mind that the person may not have been telling the truth about one or more aspects of his story, eg, what the dealer said about the bite. But if he was telling the truth, if there is some dealer out there who will tell customers on the phone that the bite is anything less than fatal on these animals, that's a big problem in our community.

The inventory you mentioned doesn't sound familiar right off the bat, but there are a lot of venomous dealers and importers and brokers out there so you'd really have to try getting hold of the guy to find out. No caller ID on him?

 

[taphillip]

Hopefully the dealers have enough experience/knowledge on the subject to be able to pick up on the person who knows nothing about them. In a 2 minute conversation most knowledgable people can pick up on the experience level on the other end of the phone/computer. If not then they shouldn't be dealing the snakes to begin with.
I know in my own mind that this individual was tremendously inexperienced....it was apparent just because of the questions that he was asking. If you have to ask that question then No you shouldn't own those kinds of snakes!
You are right about one thing Tanith, we have a serious problem in this community and it needs to stop. I had a guy 4-5 months ago tell a dealer that he was a good friend and student of mine ( which he was not ) and convinced the dealer to sell an angusticeps and a Bitis arietans to him. Being that I met him once and he wanted advice on how to clear up a RI on a Burmese Python, then proceed to tell me that he just bought two Kaouthia.....if you don't know how to avoid an RI then you need not own cobras. Fortunately the dealer valued my buisness more than the lone individual and cancelled the shipment.
So yes! There is a major problem in this community.... No question or other explanation!

 

[bud mierkey]

It will just get worse!

This mess will just get worse before it gets better.
As was stated its impossible to check out sombody if they can talk a good talk over the phone BUT you cannot get a gun that way can you?

So this is where the fix must be installed.

every time somebody gets snakes and gets into trouble the dealers simply cry WE CHEKED HIM OUT HE WAS LEGIT!

Then you find out in the real world money talks with these guys and they care not if you or someone else dies after they get their cash.

Put a little god bless there or what ever and its all cool.

Here is a idea its radical but its better than this kinda he said
we checked type blame pushing.


Every time sombody wants to buy a snake he or she must file for a buyers permit !

This will state they are LEGIT 100%.

We have to come up with some thing soon or its too late .

any ideas ?

I love talking to a new guy and they have gaboons ad cobras but cannot even pronounce their names.
no experiance at all but they consider themselves equal to.
real trained pros.
cause they can buy a black or pan makes them qualified.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Whatever happened to the idea of consumer responsibility?

There was a time in this country when you could buy just about anything you wanted, even things which could cause you physical harm or death if misused and the responsibility for use was squarely where it belonged... On the shoulders of the end consumer. I'm sick of having to leap through hoops and red tape in order to obtain a product (or animal) that'll have warning labels and disclaimers filling an instruction manual that weighs more than the product. If someone wants to be a moron and hurt themselves, I really am in favor of letting them do so. Their choice, their responsibility to accept the consequences. Unfortunately life will never be that way again.

Now... instances of misrepresentation of potential danger are clearly a different situation but can anyone honestly say that they know a dealer who would state that mambas, cobras and death adders weren't capable of lethal envenomations? Really? I don't and frankly can't concieve of such an individual existing. Possibility I suppose but doubtful. I'd likely suspect a buyer of lying to multiple people than a dealer.

The LAST thing we need are consumer regulations above and beyond what we have. Time and time again regulation of potentially dangerous items/substances has proven to be less than ideally effective in actually preventing those few problems which occur, consumer education is key. Restrictions past a certain point do nothing but punish those responsible enough to obey them.

Tanith, I know you harbor some anti-pet trade views and you have never made a secret of it. You're not hardline anti-captive ownership but you certainly can't claim to be unbiased on this issue and I think a few of your comments were misleading when phrased as generalities as they were... I won't disagree with the exact statements but your words SEEMED to insinuate that dealers weren't careful enough about who they sent animals to, which I don't feel is entirely accurate or fair. I might have read more into it than you intended though.

Bud... Bud, Bud, Bud... You're... Well, you're Bud Mierky. You and what passes for your "thoughts" are jokes, always have been always will be. You're not credible, period.

Terry, given that the majority of dealers working with venomous animals are themselves educated and experienced individuals, I'd be more inclined to believe the buyer lied to them in order to obtain the animals, then lied to you in order to cover it. Ego maybe? Who knows... I don't believe it's a common situation or an epidemic of hot animals being sold to naive consumers though.

 

[Ravnos]

I've seen it first hand at local venomous expos. Baby gaboon vipers for $35, baby puff adders for $25 and people who barely have any business owning a corn snake, muchless something potentially deadly, walking out of the building with them without so much as a word from the vendor except 'Thanks for your money!'.

I happened to mention to one vendor once that I did a little snake rehab, he showed me a sick Naja nigricollis and despite my insistance that I had no experience with elapids he assured me I would be fine and could rehab it and he'd sell it to me real cheap. Needless to say I didn't go home with it, but still - if I had been ignorant and arrogant, I may have. And could have ended up blind or dead for my stupidity.

Are there vendors who mislead people (or just leave out certain truths) to make a buck? There certainly are. Is it buyer beware? It damnwell sure is. Many stores sell things that could be potentially harmful if put in the hands of someone dumb - they don't spend all their time screening customers and talking things over with them to make sure they're adequately prepared to purchase such a thing.

Really though, in the end, if the venomous community doesn't police itself, someone else will - and the result most likely won't be to any of our liking. I enjoy the fact that I have the right to purchase a mamba, if I should want one and would prefer that all our rights are not taken away by a few greedy people and a few ignorant people unwittingly working as a team. Thankfully it is not even close to the majority, but it is a concern all venomous dealers should think about.

Adam Dawson

 

[Mustangrde1]

It is a shame that in this world we have “Business is Business and Money is Money" as a saying.

That said it is true in all business's that there are bad and good in them all. Not just the reptile trade but all business. Hence the BBB and here the BOI. To help weed out the good from the bad.

Many dangerous things have warning labels from prescription narcotics to alcohol and tobacco. Even on CD's and DVD's we have warning labels. It is the responsibility of the consumer to understand and use good judgment on their part when purchasing items.

Yes there are certainly Bad Guys in the reptile world. There are also many very good ones. Some States have laws on venomous and who may keep them, others have no laws.

Is it the responsibility of the vendor to be certain every person who buys and animal is skilled or knowledgeable enough to own it?

If you answer yes then how are they to be judged suitable for keeping an animal?
Each person has different standards of what they may feel is acceptable husbandry. So is this a way to judge persons abilities? Certainly not.

Can a vendor ask simple question to try and determine the person’s safety factor for owning a species? Certainly.
However given a week of studying a species I am most certain many could pass off as fairly knowledgeable enough to own one to someone else.

It truly comes down to being honest with yourself and knowing what you are ready for. If you even have to ask yourself if you’re ready then YOU ARE NOT.

Who dictates whom may buy large monitors and how should they be gauged?
Who dictates whom may buy large constrictors and how may they be gauged?
Who dictates whom may buy venomous reptiles and how may they be gauged?

Some States have laws governing those questions. Many however do not so who really it to say you may or may not own it accept the person who wants it.

If the dealer is of high morals and character he/ she will certainly not sell any of these to minors or persons he/she feels does not have the mentality or skills to handle these creatures. Provided again the person is honest first with themselves and second to the dealer.

An unscrupulous vendor however will sell to these people without a second thought in doing so.

 

[snakegetters]

Tanith, I know you harbor some anti-pet trade views and you have never made a secret of it. You're not hardline anti-captive ownership but you certainly can't claim to be unbiased on this issue and I think a few of your comments were misleading when phrased as generalities as they were...

I do not believe that it is a good idea to sell animals with highly specialized environmental and dietary requirements to people who have no clue how to care for them....eg, $5 iguanas that kids take home and feed lettuce and fruit cocktail. Or venomous snakes to people who are not skilled in their handling and husbandry. Currently the pet trade does a lot of that, and yes, I have a problem with it.

There are a lot of abuses in the pet trade, not because having animals for sale is intrinsically bad, but because most people who buy reptiles as pets are not qualified to take care of them - and they don't even care enough to make the small effort to become qualified. I don't think that abolishing the pet trade is the solution however. I wish I could abolish stupid people who mistreat animals, but that isn't likely to happen.

I won't disagree with the exact statements but your words SEEMED to insinuate that dealers weren't careful enough about who they sent animals to, which I don't feel is entirely accurate or fair. I might have read more into it than you intended though.

What I am saying is that dealers cannot visit the snake rooms of everybody they sell to. They cannot hire a private detective to follow every customer around and make sure they aren't lying about having experience with venomous snakes. That is not a realistic requirement. No one can do business that way. So the truth of the matter is, whether anyone likes it or not, anyone who talks a reasonably good game and lives in a legal state can buy venomous snakes from a dealer.

Bad things sometimes happen because of this. Since I'm a private citizen and not a dealer, I can be as picky as I wanna be about who gets my snakes.

Terry, given that the majority of dealers working with venomous animals are themselves educated and experienced individuals, I'd be more inclined to believe the buyer lied to them in order to obtain the animals, then lied to you in order to cover it. Ego maybe? Who knows...

Somebody lied, but it could have been the dealer. I have run into some of the real bottom of the barrel venomous dealers, small timers doing shows and brokering hots that they buy from importers. I have seen people selling hots who could not even spell their common names and did not know the Latin names. They knew nothing about the animals and nothing about their venom. So yes, I could believe this scenario from either end.

I don't believe it's a common situation or an epidemic of hot animals being sold to naive consumers though.

Is it an epidemic? No. Does it happen? Yes.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Tanith, thank you kindly for the clarification I can agree with much more of what you said in the second post than the impressions I got from the wording in the first. What someone reads isn't always what was intended to be written as I'm sure you well underdtand.

I think Scott said it best-

That said it is true in all business's that there are bad and good in them all. Not just the reptile trade but all business. Hence the BBB and here the BOI. To help weed out the good from the bad.

There is always going to be a certain unpreventable minority of shady individuals who have poor practices, all we can do is hit them in the wallet and try to identify new ones as they arise.

 

[bud mierkey]

And as always seamus shows anus!

Seamus.... Seamus. Seamus.

Your so called statement-

"Bud... Bud, Bud, Bud... You're... Well, you're Bud Mierky. You and what passes for your "thoughts" are jokes, always have been always will be. You're not credible, period."

And as always you have shown your high degree intelligence.
How old are you 100?
Things have changed open open your eyes.
This is a world where common sense and responsibility
are but a old tale of the past as you stated.

oh,
spell my name right next time.
Take your credibility and stuff it!
I lose no sleep over your opinon bah
I get the job done end of story.
how about you
good day

 

[bcfos]

My god!! Fools like this are nothing but a bad media event waiting to happen.

I honestly can't think of not doing tons of research on any venomous snake I was even thinking about buying. This would include all the fact about the snake and its needs for its enviroment, its toxicity, bite protocols(just in case), and the location of the nearest source of anti venom and how much is stocked there and the expiration dates on it.

Fools like this have made news stories across the country and cause law makers to write and pass laws which limit what we can and can't keep. you know it is bad enough I live in a state wher a certain religious faction of baptists handle hots as a test of faith, and trust me when one of the members gets tagged by a copperhead it makes statewide news. But I also have to deal with complete morons who think getting a hot is the next step up from pit bull or cock fighting.

 

[COBRAMAN]

ERJ does not currently have Death Adders, but we did have them and do sell them when we have them. I could not care any less if someone wants to black list ERJ because we sell Death Adders (when we have them). I know several others that sell them. Should we all never buy from someone because they sell them (even though we don't know that that dealer is the one that was referred to in the origional post)??? I think that's silly.

When I was running ERJ, I did all that was in my power to make sure that I was selling to a responsible and legal person (or as Bud says, "legit person"). But as Tanith wrote, there is NO way to ever know 100% if the buyer is responsible or not. We can't fly out to each customer and watch them handle, quiz them, or whatever to make that decission. Neither can a gun salesman follow a potential customer around for weeks to make sure he is not some wacko. Gun stores have regulation they have to follow prior to a gun sale, and we have regulations we have to follow prior to selling someone a venomous snake. When the local idiot buys a gun and shoots himself in the foot, is that necessarily the seller's fault?

Not to pick on Bud (because I consider myself a friend of his), but there are many people I personally know that would tell me that Bud is NOT a good canadate for me to sell a venomous snake to for one reason or another. But he is licensed in the state of Florida, he appears to be reaponsible, and I would classify him as a "LEGIT" customer, regardless of what others may think of him.

Obviously I would never sell a venomous snake to someone that was obviously inexperienced, and Scott (and several others) can verify that I have turned down MANY sales because of that. I think that if I do my best to use good judgement, and I am within the legal guidlines, that is the best I can do. I am gratefull that there was not some self made god judging me many years ago when I bought my first venomous snake (and I am not directing that at any specific person). I have found that in Florida, when SOME people get their venomous permit, they tend to think that now that they got their permit, nobody else should get one. Nobody else could possibly be as qualified as them to have venomous snakes.

Just my two cents, feel free to bash me because I don't think like you do (again, not directed at anyone specificlly).

 

[COBRAMAN]

BTW

Put a little god bless there or what ever and its all cool.

IF (and i mean IF) that remark was directed at me, I sign EVERYTHING that way, and end ALL phone calls in the same mannor, and more over I mean it. I don't care what anyone else's religios beliefs are, but I believe in God, and wish him to bless EVERYONE. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. If you are a satanist, or simply just don't believe in any God, that's fine, just ignore me when I say that to you. But I certainly do not use the phrase to sell animals, of to rationalize anything I do. That's really grabbing at straws to even suggest something that silly.
If I am just immagining that that silliness was directed at me, than forgive me, and lets move on.

Every time sombody wants to buy a snake he or she must file for a buyers permit ! ... This will state they are LEGIT 100%.

There are inherent problems with that idea..... I happen to know that you own or have owned quite a few hots; well what if the next time you wish to buy another venomous snake, they have a new inspector there that just does not feel you are a good canadate for venomous snakes, and declines your request to buy one? How would you handle that? We are bact to allowing someone to play god with your right to buy another hot snake (a right that you have excercised many times in the past, but now can no longer do so because one person decided that you can't for some reason or another).

(Bud, I tried to call you prior to posting this reply, but got no answer. I will try again, as I am interested to hear your views.)

 

[bud mierkey]

couple other points

I am asking you all for ideas to tie up the loop holes.
I know dealers don't like to be in news after a sale its bad for everyone.
If we cannot police ourselves we will be policed.

Also ray I havent been near any snake dealers for about
a year.
The shocking realities of the reptile trade has soured my
love of the hobby.
Everyone out to scam everyone makes me sick.
Then you have the voiders and all the crimminals.
The liars!
The virus peddlers.
It goes on and on.
Then the remaining good guys suffer.
It was easy to make the decision to quit hots this year.
So for some one to tell you not to sell to me is a bit funny.
ha ha.
Its been fun for the most part

 

[taphillip]

I think alot have missed the point.
Whether or not it was apparent in my short initial post, I was trying to keep it simple.
The point and fact is this...
Whoever the dealer was, he/she made no effort to discourage the purchase of these snakes. It was far more than absolutely rediculously apparent that this particular gentlemen, knew nothing about them. He said absolutely nothing in a 5 minute conversation that even remotely in the farthest reaches of the imagination that could have been construed as knowledgeable to own a venomous snake!
The death adder deal, they would need to be selling all three, not just the D.A. There is nothing wrong with selling a Death Adder to someone that is qualified. was only because I would like to know personally who the dealer was, because I would like to not ever associate myself to people/companies that have no regard for other peoples safety. Even if it is protecting someone from themself. Thats my own choice.
Whoever, sold this person the snakes, had absolutely no common sense whatsoever and should be ashamed of themselves.
Re: Consumer responsibility, A car dealer would not sell a vehicle to someone who never drove a car before in there life....
A fighter pilot would not let someone over the phone or internet come fly there jet?
So why would a dealer sell a mamba to someone that didn't even know what color they were except it was in it's name.
The consumer needed to be responsible. The dealer needed to be responsible. Neither of which were. This makes for a bad situation.
Maybe the dealers should ask themselves this question when selling a venomous snake to someone they know nothing about.
" From this conversation on the computer/phone, would I be comfortable letting this person handle a Cobra, E.A. Green Mamba, or Death adder in MY buisness under MY workmans comp?
I guarantee there would be alot fewer venomous sales!
So being that a dealer is reading this. Just out of curiosity, what do you do to verify that someone is responsible enough to own say a mamba or taipan?
Just because someone has a venomous permit in Florida, does that mean they are ready for such a snake? Does 1000 hours of keeping a local pigmy rattlesnake, qualify someone to own a taipan? No!
There is no perfect system here.....or anywhere. However, there is no way that this guy could talk a good talk and convince anyone that he knew what he was doing or getting into!
This is where the dealer says " ya know, maybe you should do a little reading and work your way up to those snakes!" Maybe a corn snake would better suit you. Or if you want to get crazy, maybe a Mangrove Snake!"
This did not happen, so who is more in the wrong? Both!
Best Regards to all.
T-

 

[COBRAMAN]

taphillip, I could not agree with you more. Perhaps I misunderstood the initial post. Sorry.

Bud, sorry to hear that your liking for the hobby has been ruined. I understand how that can happen. That is one of the reasons i keep my private collection completely private.

take care.
Ray

 

[redcarpet]

Put a little god bless there or what ever and its all cool.

Bud,
why don't you get off your high horse!!!!

God doesn't have any thing to do with the topic at hand.
Don't play games and act like your not trying to call anybody out.
I'm not stupid,I know the person your talking about.

I do think the dollor mite make people make the wrong choice sometimes,but don't think I would take your side on anything you say !!!

I KNOW YOUR NOT STUPID ,WELL MAYBE YOUR ARE WITH THE REMARKS YOU MAKE.

WE ARE NOT MIND READERS YOU CAN ONLY USE YOUR BEST JUDGEMENT WHEN IT COMES TO SELLING VENOMOUS SNAKE!!!

I HOPE YOU WILL TAKE IN WHAT I'M SAYING TO YOU,AND RECONSIDERER THE STATMENT YOU MAKE!!

BE BLESSED
IF YOU WANT TO CALL ME AND TALK ABOUT THIS MORE FEEL FREE TO CALL ME ANYTIME

THANKS,
DANNY

 

[bud mierkey]

funny new guy

oh dan,
I realy don't get what your problem is?
you are a new guy so we will watch you posts to see if your legit or just a ghost come to attack me for personal reasons.
since you came here to start your first post.
A great start ha ha ha ha

you wrote-
"Don't play games and act like your not trying to call anybody out.
I'm not stupid,I know the person your talking about."

you think I directed this at a single person?
who?

well answer if you can but I will understand if your scared to name this person.

The dealers are too loosely controled anyone can sling snakes.
a good example was the guy that worked for a local importer.
he sold dying virus infected snakes to all his (friends) and
killed off over 40 snakes now.
He knew they were sick sold them any way with out any permits licenses so he has now fled the state to carolina!
To evade justice. he says he will pay the people back but we know the reality they have been scammed!
you know him do you think he was a good dealer?
if you do you are as bad.

Dont' say god bless if its being used to cover up your sins.
or in anger,or if its used to cover up shady deals.
havent you heard about wolfs in sheeps clothing.


good day

 

[COBRAMAN]

you think I directed this at a single person? well answer if you can but I will understand if your scared to name this person.

I already addressed this issue, but you never addressed it in your reply. I felt that you were making reference to me, not only with the "God Bless" thing, but also with the remarks about a buyer being "legit". I would like to hope that I am wrong, but I can't tell from your reply. You and I have civil phone conversations, and you were nice to meet at the Daytona show, so I don't know why you would start making these remarks out of the blue.

Also, I,ve tried for several days to call you but no answer.

Ray Hunter

 

[redcarpet]

well answer if you can but I will understand if your scared to name this person.

Bud,
my name and # is on this forum.Like I said before if you want to call me than go ahead.

I know your talking about Ray Hunter!!!!!

Dont' say god bless if its being used to cover up your sins.

First of all I didn't say God bless out of anger,And just to let you know the g in God is to be capitalized,but let me guess you knew that.