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warning on bakers boas!

Yes, I still owe Robert for a dh sunglow And I will pay him no matter what the out come is on the snow boa just because i am a man of my word, but he told me not to pay him until we see whats up with the snow. And how do you pay sombody that wont return calls and emails,and if you all wont to see a pictures of a dead snow and pictures of the snow snuggeling up to his food, I will post them.
 
Robert you knew I was not that experienced with snakes, I confided in him that I was new to this ballgame! He should have never sold me that snake to begin with. A "finicky eater" and a Non Eater are two entirely different things. I've talked to a few other breeders and they've said they NEVER NEVER have had to force feed a boa. I did set an appointment to get him to the vet as soon as he started losing weight, after Robert told me not to. It was just to late.
There are a couple of things that caught my eye about the above paragraph. While you state that Robert should never have sold you that boa (and I'm not disputing that), some of the responsibility does lie with you - as an inexperienced keeper, you should not have tried to deal with a "finicky eater". Why not?? Because in the care of an inexperienced person, there is not necessarily any difference between a finicky eater and a nonfeeder. There are lots of things to try to get (or keep) snakes eating; but, if you don't know what they are, the likelihood of success is dramatically reduced.
Did you take the snake to the vet? or did it die before the appt? If you brought him, what did the vet say/do?

I personally don't think that, under ordinary circumstances, a 24hr clause should be applied to a nonfeeding snake. However, with species that are known for being troublesome, or specific snakes that are sold as problem feeders, I don't think the seller is necessarily responsible to replace or refund.

I have mixed feelings about the failed return of the snake...while I understand the concern for the animal's well being, choosing not to return it as requested does somewhat increase the keeper's responsibility (or decreases the strength of the claim). I, too, have chosen not to return animals because I felt shipping was not in their best interest...and, in so doing,understood that I was accepting the risk that they might not survive in my care.

Then, of course, there is the matter of the balance due for the DH sunglow (poss super). You might have been a good customer that Robert wanted to work with, but I would think that status would have suffered after 4 months of nonpayment.
 
(you addressed the unpaid for boa while I was afk...one of these days, I will learn to copy my unfinished posts and refresh - just to avoid things like that :ack2: )
 
What exactly did you try to get it eating before resorting to force feeding any using a pinky pump?

A pinky pump in the hands of someone who doens't know how to use one is a VERY quick way to kill a snake. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess it dies maybe a day or two after it was last fed with a pump?


did it refuse live food? Did it refuse different prey animals (species) and sizes? Both live, pre-kill/stunned and defrost?
 
Response #2

Here are links to the weather in Anchorage, AK for the months of November & December of 2008. Make sure to scroll down to the bottom. He had plenty of days to get the snake back to me if he was that concerned. Now the boa is dead (no proof yet), 129 days later ofcourse he is upset.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/PAMR/2008/11/16/MonthlyHistory.html#calendar

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/PAMR/2008/12/16/MonthlyHistory.html

I dont have any emails to prove the conversations we had, had to clean out old emails to unclutter my computer, however most of our conversations were over the phone. I did notify Robert within two weeks that the boa was not eating and he talked me into force feeding wich did not work. I again called Robert, he suggested I invest in a pinkie pump and inject them into his stomach. Which was successfull, but the snake never fed on its own. I called Robert again, and said it was still not eating on his own. Robert did say to ship him back, however by this time the tempretures in ALaska were below zero. You cant ship a snake in those tempretures especially sick ones. So there I was stuck with a snake that wouldn't eat. I tried to do everything Robert guided me to do. No avail. I am new to Buying snakes over the internet, and was very happy to find Bakers Boas, but the thought of losing $1700 on a non eating snake is very upsetting. Robert did not return my calls but had time to post new snakes for sale on king snake. I was feeling disgruntled and thought maybe I could get his attention some other way. Now if he could only call me instead of ditching me to voicemail. I wouldn't have felt kicked to the curb.

Robert you knew I was not that experienced with snakes, I confided in him that I was new to this ballgame! He should have never sold me that snake to begin with. A "finicky eater" and a Non Eater are two entirely different things. I've talked to a few other breeders and they've said they NEVER NEVER have had to force feed a boa. I did set an appointment to get him to the vet as soon as he started losing weight, after Robert told me not to. It was just to late.
 
First of all a finicky eater in the hands of an inexperienced keeper will probably become a non-eater. I personally wouldn't have considered any type of assist or force feeding within 2 weeks. Actually I wouldn't been all that concerned about it in 2 weeks so I am surprised you were advised to force feed it, which can be counterproductive with a finicky eater, especilly if done incorrectly. You really should have gained more experience before taking on such a task.
How old are these boas? If you were using a pinkie-pump I am assuming they were pretty young. How many feedings did it have with the seller for him to establish the "finicky eater" label.
 
Since the seller has provided emails to back up most of his story, and the buyer has not, and has further said himself that it was labeled a 'finickey' eater, I would put the snake's death at the buyer's responsibility. You were offered a chance to return it, and according to the links, it was not below freezing for shipping(which you said it was).
It seems to me that you just didn't want to return the snake, and your gamble that you could get it eating failed, and now you want to have your cake and eat it too. The snake died after 129 days in your care, and you bought it as a finickey eater, and were offered a chance to return it well before it died. Why should you possibly be entitled to a refund now?
 
Of course that is assuming the snake is even dead. At this point this whole thread could be an effort to get Baker’s Boas to write off the remainder of the debt.

The temps both when the snake was shipped to Alaska and on the 17th (the first Monday after the request to return which was a Thursday) were below optimal for shipping but not sub-zero by any means.
Even if the temps had been sub-zero Mr. Berensmann had a choice, keep a snake he claims was not eating and he had too little expertise to keep alive, or take the risk and ship the snake back to someone who is an expert and could work with it.
With the first choice Mr. Berensmann could end up with a dead snake.
With the second choice Mr. Berensmann would either get his money back or a replacement snake.
Hmmmm, wonder which I would have gone with.
 
Yes, I still owe Robert for a dh sunglow And I will pay him no matter what the out come is on the snow boa just because i am a man of my word, but he told me not to pay him until we see whats up with the snow. And how do you pay sombody that wont return calls and emails,and if you all wont to see a pictures of a dead snow and pictures of the snow snuggeling up to his food, I will post them.

How did you pay what you already paid?

And yes we want to see pics of a belly up dead snake. That is called proof!
 
Robert Baker admits that this boa was a poor feeder, why in the world would a breeder ship a poor feeding high end boa to an inexperienced customer. we as breeders see a poor or non feeder every now and then in the babies we have, most of us will not sell those because if they wont do well for us, they certainly will not do well for the customer. those poor feeders and non feeders are usually put down, not sold to make a couple extra bucks.

I dont think its reasonable to expect an inexperienced customer like Cory to have to force feed a boa he was sent, to keep it alive.

Robert Baker said:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Cory Berensmann
To: Robert Baker
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 2:29:48 AM
Subject:

hi robert, that snow wont eat, I tried to force 1 down his mouth 3 times and he wont have nothing to do it, so I think its time to get him back to you. call me asp, thank you.
907-244-0321
FAR NORTH BOAS!



4.) The boa was for me. However, I did tell Cory that the snow boa was a picky eater and did require more attention than normal.
 
Yes Mr. Clark then 3 hours later Mr. Baker replied to him.
Baker's Boas ViewThursday, November 13, 2008 5:39:18 AMTo:Cory Berensmann
Cc:Baker's Boas

Cory,

Hello. Please ship him back asap then to:

Robert Baker
FedEx Kinkos - **HOLD**
2015 Deming Way
Middleton, WI 53562
608-444-8155


Thanks,

Robert Baker
www.bakersboas.com

Now Mr. Berensmann says;
Robert did say to ship him back, however by this time the tempretures in ALaska were below zero. You cant ship a snake in those tempretures especially sick ones.

Looking at the weather record for that time period, given that the 13th was thursday and the next good day time wise to ship would have been monday the 17th, the temps were not below zero at all. They were for sure not optimal for shipping as I stated above but not below zero.
 
The buyer was TOLD it was a poor feeder and made his own judgement call. HE decided to buy a poor feeder, and HE decided to keep it when it wasn't feeding well for him, and NOW decides that it's a bad deal?
If you buy a car that the seller SAID needs xx work, and then you can't fix it yourself, you are NOT entitled to say the seller was wrong, or that the seller scammed you out of money! You still even have to PAY for the car. Yes, a snake is more important than a inanimate object, but he should have thought about it PRIOR to buying it.

And why should someone kill the boa, just because it doesn't feed well? Do you kill any snake that doesn't feed well for you?
 
Response #3

I disclosed that the boa needed live pinkie mice, it would not take f/t. It was a picky eater at times. like some baby boas are. It was healthy and did eat for me upon shipment. I have pictures to proof it was healthy looking. This information was disclosed to Cory prior to sending him the boa. He said he was comfortable with the situation and wanted the boa. Full disclosure was given!!! If he had any hesitation, why did he accept the boa? Or better yet.....why did he not send it back when I said I would take it back when he complained? He had plenty of warm enough days to send it back. I did my job as a seller by disclosing everything I knew about the boa. The buyer still wanted the snake. I would have never sent a boa that was not eating! Also, if I was trying to screw someone I would not have put a non-paid for $600 boa in there to boot!

I agree no one should have to deal with a boa that is not eating, I understand that. That is why I went against my terms and conditions that were disclosed to Cory prior to purchase, and offered to take the boa back with a FULL REFUND. This is above and beyond what most breeders would do. He did not take me up on the offer. Why not???? He obviously lied about it not getting above ZERO. He had plenty of opportunity to send the boa back with a FULL REFUND...no questions asked! Now 129 days later he is complaining that his snake is dead. Dead with no proof so far. He has dead boa and still owes money...and a crashed computer that can not retreive any proof.

I am done responding to this post until Cory shows proof the boa is dead. Also, I want to see what guarantee he has from me? I will honor it fully, as I will with all my customers. Until I get some proof, this is not worth me responding to anymore. Just a buyer trying to get something for free, since he still owes me money that I will never see.

Thanks for those that actually see where I am coming from...
 
BS Robert you talk me into force feeding him 2 weeks after you shipped him to me, and I will have the phone comp pull my phone records to prove i called you in 3rd week in october and the only reason I didnt send him back then because you told me you had my back if something whent wrong, and then you told me if wanted to be a breeder i needed to get my hands dirty. You know this. What you did was prolong this so you would have to pay me back and if I was 1 of your favoret custumer I be wouldnt be pissed off wright now I would be taken care of. And the only thing im gulty of Is trusting you, and Chris nicholas will be getting my money from now on because your ant SHIT.
 
I disclosed that the boa needed live pinkie mice, it would not take f/t. It was a picky eater at times. like some baby boas are. It was healthy and did eat for me upon shipment. I have pictures to proof it was healthy looking.

Pinkie mice? It must have been a tiny boa... what was the date of birth of this boa? It would be good if you could post some pictures.
 
Here are links to the weather in Anchorage, AK for the months of November & December of 2008. Make sure to scroll down to the bottom. He had plenty of days to get the snake back to me if he was that concerned. Now the boa is dead (no proof yet), 129 days later ofcourse he is upset.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/PAMR/2008/11/16/MonthlyHistory.html#calendar

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/PAMR/2008/12/16/MonthlyHistory.html

This highs never even were above 35 on any day and the lows were in the teens. Do you truly feel that those are safe temperatures to ship to reptile in?
 
This was a big red flag for me also, most boas start out on at least hopper mice....some small adult mice.

A boa in that condition should not be sold to an inexperienced keeper. the end result is never gonna be good.

Pinkie mice? It must have been a tiny boa... what was the date of birth of this boa?
 
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