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what do you do when you take 2 babies in that are underweight and die

HRoss

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i don't feel this is a boi thread yet, but there could be one coming.

here is the short. i did several thousand dollars worth of purchasing from a mid level ball breeder. there were some problems, but more than likely heat had a roll in that deal.

now, daytona 2006 this dealer brings me a replacement animal for one that had died. ok seems like an honest person. i see several yellow belly females on his table and inquire if they have been eating. answer yes. i take them home within 24 hours, i was only there sunday. they are small. under 50 grams small (about 45 +or- a gram to be exact). i set them up the way i set up all baby balls in regulated baby racks with hides and a water dish.

these two girls never ate. i tried multiple food options before going to force feeding. the first one died after taking a pinky mouse by force, the other seemed to take 2 or three in her jaws and then continued to eat the placed pinks on her own.
after talking to the dealer he wanted the one back but it was too late. at this point i was going from standard highspeed to fiberoptic, and left my old service running so he could get in touch with me.

i should have mentioned at the start that he gave me the yb's to be paid later. now 18 months later on christmas day i get a email demanding payment for animals that never ate on there own even after switching them down to smaller 2.5 quart tubs. i force fed and gave the animals pediolite after monitoring them closely as they shrank into the upper 30 gram range. still no luck. the first one died i contacted the seller and he wanted the other one back (understandable, but it was too late she had passed as well).

had the animals been represented properly as fresh out of the egg not eating i would not have taken them, especially not at the price he wanted for them.
now he wants his 1600 (knowing the babies never pased the 50 gram mark and died without ever eating on their own), but i feel no responsibility for the non eating animals that were represented as eating and still weighed well under 50 grams. i did everything possible and spent many hours on those two

i have put two photos of the dead ybs taken today (i still have them in my freezer). i am curious as to how others would deal with this. i did not come here to trash the breeder or myself. i have checked with my fellow breeders and i know their opinions, but i am curious as to what other would do in this situation
howard
 

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Did you ever tell him about the problem?
 
here is the issue that seem to really be in ? without dragging in negatives that would be typical of the boi.
i did see the animals and take them with me. that is true 100% without a doubt. they were not huge but did not look malnurished. my best guess is straight out of the egg. he feels i am responsible because i took them in good faith. my reply is good faith goes both ways in that they were represented as feeding.

like i said i am not out to hurt this person, and i would very much like to have had the living females.

i guess it comes down to financial responsibility for both parties involved.
 
Howard,

Did any of the babies passed feces while in your care? I'm not just talking urates (the white stuff) but an amount of dark feces consistent with having eaten a rodent?

Thanks
 
granted a huge amount of time has passed and even urates i do not remember.
but no regular droppings. that is why i have suspicion that they had just shed
i have raised a lot of baby balls. i am having issues with some late hatches from a mojave clutch (very small eggs. but even with pumping pinks, baby food and pediolyte they are gaining weight; just not striking prey
 
yes we are even discussing it now

Well. let us know how that goes. It would also be nice to hear his side of the story.

Thanks.
 
It would be interesting to know if he sold any siblings to the two you got at that time, and what happened with them.
 
he is upset. i told him i placed a tread here in the discussion area

he feels i am at fault, and i disagree. i wrote the animals off, but he has not. he wants me to give him something in trade or cash. it is a lose /lose situation for both of us. the guy has been breeding reptiles longer than i have been alive. i brought this here so negatives could be withheld unlike other areas. i wanted to discuss it rather than get into a nasty argument. now he has responded to me that i owe him one way or the other. nice christmas
 
he says he sold 3 males to nerd that are doing fine. he is very upset and we have not talked in a year. he hit me with his email today of all days, but just replied that he is busy now.
 
Howard,
I just want to clarify a few things
-You "purchased" these yellowbellies, and the seller trusted you to send payment - was a time frame discussed (as in, you would send payment by xx/xx/xxxx) ?
-How much time passed before the first one died? the second?
-Did you notifiy the seller that the snakes weren't feeding? or just after the first one died?
-You stated that YOU wrote them off...did the seller ever give you any indication that he had? Did you ever notify him that you had decided not to pay, or did you simply never make payment?
Thanks
 
harald(sp), i can not remember the time frame. you are correct i did agree to purchase them.
the time frame of trouble was very quickly. first observing the thinness towards the tale.. i would say no more than a month and a half passed before the first one died even with assist feeding and eventually force feeding. and the second very shortly after
i was in contact with the seller and told him i had to assist feed both snakes
and if i should send the second one back to him. it passed before that could happen.
i understand where you are coming from and obviously the seller did not write them off. me being frustrated with these animals and some from another deal probably caused some inconsiderate actions on my part. but,i will ask you would you feel the seller owed you for the snakes had you purchased them and they never fed.

i have stated i saw the snakes prior to taking them home with me. obviously the seller and i see it different on the snakes thriving ability. and that is why i am asking opinions. he is known as a good person. i had unfortunate events dealing with him, he is shifting the blame to me completely.
and you are correct i never made payment on the dead animals, not getting in touch with him, after telling him the second snake died, is wrong on my part. but this not being the boi i am not bringing in our other deal and deals with others that i have first hand knowledge of.

this is the tough part for me. these are living goods. i know if i sell an animal that dies i am obligated to make it right. this situation is bad because the animals were sold but no money changed hands. and i am not bashing anyone and welcome all opinions.

once i sent the last email informing him of the second animal not making it. i never heard back from him. my email address and phone # are in all of my advertisements.

and lastly there is such a huge time gap here and change in computers that some things timeline wise could be off, just not in a malicious nature.
 
HRoss said:
welcome all opinions.

I'm thinking it might be good to find out more about the three siblings that nerd allegedly purchased. If they got three siblings at the exact same time that you made your purchase, and all are alive and thriving now, is it possible that the two you got were OK when you got them?
 
nerds were shipped from his facility in tennessee. not the same time frame.

i do want to state i dont think this person is a bad guy, but this deal is sour to both of us. if the snakes had been feeding and were somewhat established i would without doubt do the most possible to make it right from my end. i need those animals so bad i can not even begin to describe. and i do welcome your opinions. i am torn on this one because i took the animals, but i am also torn that they never fed. i am sure in the end we will reach a compromise. like i mentioned i do want opinions. not to chastise someone on the boi
am i being hard headed?
am i not at fault because the animals were transfered as feeding?
am i out of luck because i took the animals that never began to thrive?
these are some of the questions i have put here for feedback not to attack anyone

i will also state those animals were in transit in a stryo cooler from daytona to tampa florida from the show. no extremes to alter them

please do not get me wrong he has lost money at this point. i know that hurts no matter who you are.
 
As a rule, I don't feel that an animal dying in one's care after a month, or more, relieves that person of his obligation to pay for the animal.
That said, there is always room to consider individual situations. I'll start by saying I am not a BP aficionado, so I don't know how small a 45 gram baby is...though I think I have heard (read) of people reporting hatching weights of higher than that.
*I forgot to ask before - were these CBB or CH babies?*
There is an inherent risk with purchasing very small babies, regardless of species...but when one is told that they are feeding, it does ease the mind & make one more willing to take that risk. While BPs are known to have their feeding issues, they are not like some other species that one MUST inquire about what they are feeding...though it might have helped to know if they only took ASF fuzzies, for example.
Communication is also a key issue...a seller cannot be expected to help resolve an issue he is unaware of (until it is too late). A month, though, is not a terribly long time in the life of a baby snake...and I have had many babies refuse/fail to take a meal for that long. If they deteriorated, and died, within that short a time, I am inclined to agree that they had not been feeding before...or at least not well.
That brings us to intervention. I used to turn to assist or forcefeeding fairly quickly. Over the years, I have gained some patience, but I still do it sooner than many others would consider it. That is because I feel it is important not to let the snake deteriorate too far before stepping in. So many people will post comments decrying forcefeeding as detrimental, and more likely to kill a snake than missing meals...but maybe if they didn't wait so long they wouldn't feel that way. This is not meant to pass judgement on your actions - you don't come off as inexperienced, have admitted you are unsure of the timelines, and I never saw the condition of the snakes...who am I to say, lol - I just get sidetracked sometimes.

I guess my overall feeling is that you should have been paying for the snakes while this was happening. It would have been an easy way to casually mention that they were not feeding yet, and then, later, informed him of the deaths. (Of course, hindsight is 20/20, and I probably wouldn't have mentioned it,either). It comes across a lot better than not fulfilling your commitment, then popping in with 'hey, those snakes died'.
 
Why did you not return the animals when you couldn't get them to feed? I think the situation got complicated because you had not actually paid any money for them at the time. Had you paid for them I'm betting as soon as a month passed and you couldn't get them feeding you would have either shipped them back or at the very least contacted the dealer to see what should be done. Unfortunately when you took them you became responsible for the cost and when they weren't feeding you should have treated the situation as if you had already paid for them. Is it possible to compromise and you pay him the original amount agreed and he provide you with 2 well started female yellow bellies? In that situation neither will be really happy but on the other hand he will get his money and you will get your yellow bellies. I understand the won't be a year etc... but on the other hand he will be out 2 07 yellow bellies so in the end you both take a little hit but end up with something.
 
Yeow

I can easily see both sides of this and my .02 is this. There is definitely fault in taking the animals and not keeping the breeder in the loop as to their status. On the other hand, there is also fault in representing an animal as 'feeding' when it obviously wasn't. Although this is not going to end well for either of you, my suggestion is for each of you to take half the loss. If you are both honest guys, then you should share the blame. Either you pay half of the amount owed (for 1 yb), or pay the whole amount if he agrees to send another 07 yb. Then I would hope it would be a lesson learned for both of you.

Since I have not heard the other side of this, I am going strictly on what is written here. Personally, if I accept responsibility for a snake and agree to pay it off, I would do so. That said, I would also then be looking for recompense for the misrepresented animals. Just my opinion. Definitely an ugly situation. Good luck with it.

Cheers,
Kat
 
he was actually in the loop. he was in the loop as to the assist feeding from the start.
it is not uncommon for balls to take a week or two before eating. this was very fast that the animals went south
 
It comes across a lot better than not fulfilling your commitment, then popping in with 'hey, those snakes died'

i left my computer on but have been out. that is simply not the case. i talked to him several times about the animals not taking food and needing assist.

if it was 3 weeks or 6 weeks i could not tell you. it has been too long to remember. it was unusually fast that is why i kept them frozen, for belief that they died in such a short period. by the time i got him a photo of the first dead female, we agreed to send the second back. it happened too fast.

this was not a simple i waited to watch them die procedure. and this is why i believe they were fresh shed. they maintained their bodyweight around just shy of 50 grams for about roughly two weeks then went down hill quick.
 
I would absolutely agree that it takes a week or two for some babies to start eating. However, I would point out that there is a difference between a 65-75g baby going a few days and an underweight 45g baby going a few extra days. Less mass is definitely not to a picky eaters advantage.


Cheers,
Kat
 
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