What in the world is going on?

[Griz]

Guys, the long and short of this is quite simple. Rich doesn't care. He has been so fed up with certain behaviors that he feels the need to take a much more hardlined stance about not just certain issues but all issues. I completely understand the logic behind making these moves and I must admit that running this board has certainly become more of a headache for Rich then an extension of his love for reptiles.

Now, with that being said. I would hope at some point Rich and the moderators would step back and take a look at why Fauna has been such a success. Do we all simply love to come to Fauna due to the comraderie? Or, do we all simply love to hear what witty comment Wes has to say to someone? Or to hear the passion that one of our well known users has typed to help show a scammer the door? The very things that Rich and the moderators are eliminating are the very same things that has made Fauna great. Let's just make sure we are not tossing out the proverbial baby here....

I will admit that nobody comes onto this board to hear me call someone an idiot which is what earned me not only my first points ever but also my first suspension. So, I simply chalk that up to lesson learned and I will agree with the fine as that sort of name calling is unneccesary to this site. But to hear the numerous more eloquent user express the same verbage but only in a different manner is one thing that we all love. However, from the logic being applied above, those days are gone. I know that as owner of the board it would be nice to create an atmosphere where everyone sits around and sing KumByYa (how do you spell that anyways?) but it's not the reality.

The other issue that Rich and the mod's need to look at is the warning levels of some of the most respected people on this site. Take a look at MGReptiles. He has the highest trader rating on this site by far and is well respected all around yet if he steps across the line even once he is going to be fined. Rich is telling Chris that he is more or less not wanted on this board yet his trader rating is 67. Or how about Evan Stahl? His warning is at 15. Ken Harbart is at a warning level of 3 for derragatory comments (called a guy a liar, a loser, trailer trash and pathetic all in one post but only earned 3 points to my 10 points for using the word idiot). Rich, I do understand different time/different place/different warning system but the scale once again seems off. Anyways, one more comment from him and one of our own mod's is being fined. Anyways, my only point here is that this site, if it sticks to their guns, is chasing away some very reputable people in the business and I would hope that this is contradictory to Fauna's goals.

I do feel that since this is a pay site that the input of the users would have been solicited but alas it was not and we all have to live and learn. I do hate to say it but I think that the Glory days of Fauna will be short lived if more logic is not applied to the decisions.

Griz

PS I sincerely hope for nothing but the best with this site. It is generally the site I wake up to and the site I go to bed with at night. My post above is sincere and I hope encourages some discussion.

 

[WebSlave]

First off, this is still being worked on, even as I type this. Logician is my programmer, and he chose Chris's account to test out some of the code, since that is the one he last heard from me about that was not working properly. From all indications, it STILL is not working properly.

Bugs are going to need to be worked out. But that is not going to change the fact that I am going to be very strict about violations in order to get this site back on track as quickly as possible. There are still some rough edges, but they will be worked out shortly. At that time, I will evaluate what needs to be done to make it fair, but not TOO fair. At this point, I want the penalties to be harsh and the guidelines/rules strict. This place is kind of like one of those old freezers before they made them frost-free. The ice built up gradually until now the whole danged thing is frozen solid. There is no other choice but to aggressively chip out that ice to get the original function and utility back that is now lost.

That being said, since the warnings are changing, then perhaps the best bet is to just zero out the warnings altogether. I had considered that from the start, but honestly the reason I did not was because one major purpose of the warning system was to be a public record of what WE (meaning myself and the moderators) are doing in an effort to enforce the rules. I don't know how many times I have heard from someone that so-and-so was unfair to someone because of the warning points assessed by that moderator. Well, the history is all there, available for anyone to inspect to determine the truth of that allegation. Once I delete that, then it is one person's word against another's and a case of only memories being the evidence of what really transpired. I was not comfortable with doing it that way. And maybe I'm still not, but maybe it is old history anyway, and really doesn't matter at this point. Obviously this is one of the points I need to think further on.

Yeah, maybe I did jump into this prematurely, but that's just the way it is. When this was all being discussed, one member went right on the offensive with me, and I figured, "What the heck. Might as well test it out with this 'volunteer'." And I couldn't see any reason to stop. Some people noting the changes started firing volleys of reported posts, especially for warning points they had on their record and saw in other people's posts. Perhaps it was just spite, but I certainly had to act on them, didn't I? Otherwise I am certain you can imagine the flak I would have received from NOT acting on them from those members. So it snowballed quickly.

But as I have said before, I AM going to get very hardlined about the crap going on in here. Certainly some people won't like it, because that is just their nature to be that way, but this is the wakeup call for them to make a change or be gone. Doesn't matter if they are a GOD in this business, if their attitude towards other members is such that it affects this site negatively, then they are just going to be GONE.

So tell me, how many of the one point warnings should someone be allowed before it becomes apparent that the member really has a problem and needs stronger coercion to get with the program? How many times should I or my moderators have to put up with correcting the "mistakes" that same member makes over and over again? When is the point that we just need to say "ENOUGH ALREADY!"

 

[Wilomn]

When is the point that we just need to say "ENOUGH ALREADY!"

A hand, obsurdly large and thick fingered, slowly riaises in the back of the room. Those behind the hand are reminded more of a gigantic hairy bodied splay legged spider hanging upside down than an actual human appendage.

Shyly the hand riases just a bit higher and a quiet voice, so quiet that a stiff breeze would bury it as surely as Vesuvius buried Pompei, surely not that of the the voice of the hanging hairball with legs, and says, barely audibly, "500 sounds about right to me," and then disappears zippidy zip down it goes, leaving not a trace that it was ever there.

 

[WebSlave]

A hand, obsurdly large and thick fingered, slowly riaises in the back of the room. Those behind the hand are reminded more of a gigantic hairy bodied splay legged spider hanging upside down than an actual human appendage.

Shyly the hand riases just a bit higher and a quiet voice, so quiet that a stiff breeze would bury it as surely as Vesuvius buried Pompei, surely not that of the the voice of the hanging hairball with legs, and says, barely audibly, "500 sounds about right to me," and then disappears zippidy zip down it goes, leaving not a trace that it was ever there.

And another hand, spindly and frail, almost translucent and pale, yet with a bold voice, as worlds colliding, says "Consider the source!"

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Some people noting the changes started firing volleys of reported posts, especially for warning points they had on their record and saw in other people's posts. Perhaps it was just spite, but I certainly had to act on them, didn't I? Otherwise I am certain you can imagine the flak I would have received from NOT acting on them from those members. So it snowballed quickly.

Guilty as charged.

When is the point that we just need to say "ENOUGH ALREADY!"

I finally got the message. I'll not be be pressing the issue with you an longer.

 

[Wilomn]

And another hand, spindly and frail, almost translucent and pale, yet with a bold voice, as worlds colliding, says "Consider the source!"

Yes, indeed, WHO was that masked man, er hand and did you see his trusty white steed? Surely a white such as has never even blessed the snow new fallen in vallies unseen and mountain tops untread, so white it hurts to look at.

Ahhhh, the burning question, the ONLY question, just who is "THE HAND!!!!????"

Such a mit as could frighten even Karloff himself and yet a voice that would have mikey sportin' a chubby, if only he could, and yet, we ASSume, they are both belonging to one in the same; yet the wonder remains. How can they co-exist, be the same? Surely it MUST be a mistake.

Yes, that's it. A mistake. There was a ventrilaquist in the room and THAT person shouted out and over......no, no that won't work, the voice was too quiet....hmmmmmmm

Do you know? DOES ANYONE KNOW???? Oh the humanity.

Anyway, stepping on toes once or twice is understandable, especially as things are. There really isn't much excuse to be toe stompin though.

 

[Chris@TSE]

I am glad you are taking measures to correct this issue Rich. Please take a moment to let me know when my account specifically has been corrected, it seems I have been warned for the same post twice and my "karma" points according to your figures should still be well within the green, not atop the list of lowest. You may also thank Dr. Owens for the additional retraction in "Karma" points as well on my behalf. And I do believe if you are starting over with these "Karma" points, warning points should start anew as well. It is only fair. New point additions atop an old point structure would be pointless, have your programmer make a hard copy of the existing warnings list and start from scratch so everyone has the same starting point and you can easily say everything is enforced equally.

Other than that I really have nothing left to say to you.

I had left our previous issues in the past, it is apparent now that you have not. Unfortunately I cannot change this and it is your problem, not mine. No matter how many times I tell you I am offering genuine concern or suggestion, you ignore me. No matter how many times I tell you I am all for these new changes and just want to see them done right, you ignore me. I feel my efforts will be better placed from this moment on arguing with a brick wall, perhaps I would get further. It is unfortunate that you have led me to feel this way but I guess I am not alone. You are looking for the worst in someone and effectively baiting it out of me and I will no longer allow this to occur. I'm done with it.

I'll be sure not to set of any of your warning triggers in the future, though my contributions here will be scarce. I have been insulted enough for one twenty four hour period and no longer feel offering any type of suggestion is beneficial whatsoever here on fauna as things seem to stand now. You've got your twenty dollars, and rightfully so. According to your system I deserved it and have no problem with this. I'll take my fines and drastic point increases/reductions and be sure never to offer suggestion nor contribution again. You have made your point. Do I agree with the fines I encountered? Absolutely not. Am I willing to turn the other cheek and still over suggestion afterwards? Yes, but what does that matter when greeted with such hatred. My efforts are futile and yours are quite obvious. I'll be the better man and walk away, as I have stated numerous times I have no quarrel with you so please save your remarks stating I am being antagonistic. They simply do not apply.

Good luck Rich. I hope you learn to treat some of your paying customers/members better in the future. I never thought I could pay to be a member of a site where I would be treated as so unwelcome. Amazing what some will do to be amongst friends...... Myself included.

I hope fauna becomes a better place after the changes, I truly do. I'll now leave you all to this conversation and stick to other sections of this site. Take care.

 

[Laura Fopiano]

Chris I agree

With all due respect Rich, I feel that it is only fair that the warning points should start from zero also. Maybe there is a way to archive past points, for posterity or amusement?? I am no computer whiz and how no idea about implementing that type of software, however, if we are all starting fresh slates with "karma" shouldn't we all have the same with warnings as well??

 

[WebSlave]

With all due respect Rich, I feel that it is only fair that the warning points should start from zero also. Maybe there is a way to archive past points, for posterity or amusement?? I am no computer whiz and how no idea about implementing that type of software, however, if we are all starting fresh slates with "karma" shouldn't we all have the same with warnings as well??

Maybe, maybe not. The reason I rolled the karma points back was because of abuses from several people in how they were trading points. Kind of a "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" sort of thing. Members had nearly unlimited points to give, so it made nearly unlimited points to get as well. And the numbers became so inflated that they no longer meant anything at all. I felt the reputation/karma points system was so corrupted that there was no other options but to remove it completely, or just try to fix it this way. So I just made it more difficult to abuse, hoping this fix will work.

The warning system is not corrupted. It has not been abused by members because it cannot be abused by them. But it has been abused, in a sense, because it had no real teeth, and was basically laughed at or ignored by some members. Certainly I expect most people with a lengthy record would wish nothing better then to have it disappear from sight. Others really don't care one way or the other, and apparently just laugh the points off. This too needed change, but in a different way from the karma system. The warning system just needed teeth to make it really mean something.

There are a number of options I can consider. One of which is that I can make the warnings of each member private and only visible to myself and the moderators. Of course, that has it's own pros and cons. Or I can go to some sort of a hybrid system (if the programming task is not too great) to have all of the warning points copied into a user notes file, and keep only the most current small infractions (when 9 or less) visible to members to let them know how close they are to being fined and suspended. When they reach 10 points, they will be fined and suspended, and the record wiped clean for a new round. Of course, people immediately getting 10 pointers will not have any public record at all, which, again, has pros and cons attached to it as well. Fact of the matter is that the fines and suspensions have been a fully manual system, and as such, a pain in the butt for me to administer. So yes, I have been lax in applying it even when it was obvious it needed to be done so. My goal is to mostly automate the process so the penalties will be easy to administer with little or no effort on my part. Just as the payment of the fine and reinstatement needs to be automated as well. But there are still some kinks that need to be ironed out, which in itself just takes time to do.

As I said, it depends. Should the warning system even be public in the first place? It is a management tool, after all, so maybe management only should have the info available. Or is the peer pressure of having warning points visible to all helpful in keeping things in check?

This all ran though my mind while I was first initially considering this change in the making. There are just a lot of ways of looking and thinking about this. Maybe it is best the way I am attempting to do it now, or maybe it is not. I am sure everyone will have their own opinions about what is best, but the final decision of what is left when the dust clears is going to have to be mine.

 

[nicolai]

What the heck is going on here??? I have never seen so many people this unhappy here before!! This cant possibly be what rich had intended when he started this new clean up of his.they say that for every spoken opinion there are 100 more thinking the same thing but not speaking. I see a lot of the "Leaders" of the reptile world and fauna unhappy and confused about what is going on here. A huge amount of people look up to these "LEADERS" as good people in the reptile world for the good they have done the reptile community, the success they have had in business and by being spokesmen for it. I wonder how many peple are watching whats going on here and deciding whether or not its a place they want to stay in. this kind of controversy, arguing, egotism and stuff cant possibly be good for the site or the members.
One thing is for sure, with all this controversy I bet the hits and uniques are up quite a bit as people are very entertained by this kind of show. Once the fog clears what will be left!!!! the way it looks now is that a lot of people are going to be shown the door, others thrown out the door, more yet will be slamming the door behind them, and all the rest wondering what the doors are for and not knowing what to do with them and afraid to ask how to use them.

 

[PaulSage]

As I said, it depends. Should the warning system even be public in the first place? It is a management tool, after all, so maybe management only should have the info available. Or is the peer pressure of having warning points visible to all helpful in keeping things in check?

My only question would be that if we are encouraged to report posts that are in violation of the rules, how would we know if it has already been adressed by the moderators if we can't check their warning points?

I have never seen so many people this unhappy here before!!

I see a lot of the "Leaders" of the reptile world and fauna unhappy and confused about what is going on here. A huge amount of people look up to these "LEADERS" as good people in the reptile world for the good they have done the reptile community, the success they have had in business and by being spokesmen for it.

I am by no means a "leader" in the reptile industry. ...probably never will be. I do look up to the leaders for their contributions and accomplishments to the industry, but I don't see how any of the changes on Fauna would affect their stature in said industry. So if people are unhappy about the changes, I guess I would just ask "WHY?" I mean, the reasons I came to fauna aren't being affected by the new rules... but the reasons I almost left are.

this kind of controversy, arguing, egotism and stuff cant possibly be good for the site or the members.

I think (hope) in the long run that it will. There's probably just going to be a little turbulence for a while, but if we keep our tray tables in the upright and locked position, and fasten our seatbelts, I'm sure (hoping) things will calm down.

 

[shrap]

There's probably just going to be a little turbulence for a while, but if we keep our tray tables in the upright and locked position, and fasten our seatbelts, I'm sure (hoping) things will calm down.

Or crash into the side of a mountain and go down in a ball of fire....

 

[Lucille]

Or crash into the side of a mountain and go down in a ball of fire....

Sammy, sugar, I hope you understand, but I am taking Paul's plane.
We are going to drift calmly into a tropical isle where we will have reptile conversations with other Fauna citizens while sipping refreshments from hollowed out pineapples with little umbrellas on them.

We will go herping in groups, then at the end of the weekend go back home refreshed and happy.

Either change planes or leave me your snakes in your will?

 

[Wilomn]

Ha, you people and your flimsy planes.

Wings are MUCH better.

 

[WebSlave]

Or crash into the side of a mountain and go down in a ball of fire....

Funny, but I heard that same argument when I initiated the paid memberships and restricted posting on the BOI. Didn't happen then, and is not going to happen now.

Yeah, there will be some attrition, both forced and voluntary. But for every 1 who is escorted out the door or leaves in a huff over not being able to be the bully on the playground any longer, 5 more will take each of their places here breathing a sigh of relief over the changes.

 

[shrap]

Funny, but I heard that same argument when I initiated the paid memberships and restricted posting on the BOI. Didn't happen then, and is not going to happen now.

Oops, just joking again man. Honestly meant nothing by it. I so very much wish tones of voice and inflection could be accurately displayed on forums. I really am a funny guy.

 

[shrap]

Ha, you people and your flimsy planes.

So Balsa wood was not a good choice?

 

[Wilomn]

So Balsa wood was not a good choice?

Well, I hear it floats so IF you're flying low and THEN get into some sort of trouble AND you happen to be flying over water, when you crash you can float on your plane.

So, mirroring our current delimma here, depending on where you go, what you do, and who you are, it may or may not be a good choice.

 

[Chris@TSE]

I prefer cinder blocks and the additional lead weights from time to time personally........

 

[The BoidSmith]

I received my very first warning for calling someone an idiot.

Well, times have changed. If you check into my warning level, I was awarded the first point ever in the BOI for "unnecessary roughness" for calling someone a "disturbed mind". A lot of water has gone under the bridge. Today I'm in full support of more civil posts when addressing someone. My latest point (the third one) was for having four lines in my signature. I've had that signature for months and never heard of the changes. But as it's said "ignorance of the law is no excuse".

Regards.