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What is going on with the Spider and Mojave market?

SPJ

SPJ

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I just saw another ad on KS and this one takes the cake. :rolleyes:
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=426271

$1,000 spiders :hot:
$1,100 mojaves :hot:

All of a sudden ridiculously low prices are being advertised.
Who are these people and why are they driving down the market?

Does this mean that next year spiders and mojaves will be like pastels are now?

This reminds me of what happened when (I won't mention his name) released a bunch of Bredl's onto the market and caused the prices to plummit.

This new trend is very frustrating. :hot:
 
Spiders are Dom & Mojaves are Co-Dom, it is too easy to flood the market with these. Look also at the % drop in 'Bees this year... more for the argument of working with recessive traits, which tend to hold their value best.

However, recessives take longer, so most people who wanted to produce Morphs their first clutch have saturated the market with Dom & Co-Doms... this is no more than simple supply & demand economics, whether we like it or not. And not all breeders/sellers will be sensitive to market prices. They don't understand that you can discount yourself out of business. The flip-side of this is that we will have to be flexable on what is truly a reasonable market price. -Deb
 
That is by far the lowest price I have seen and by no way the current market price. I have never heard of this person before and can see that pics are a challenge for them. Plus it says that it is his "pair" prices. :ack2:
 
I posted this same thread/link on the SK forums...it's insane. Why are people so intent on making a quick buck?
 
Basically, it is just a case of somebody that is so eager to make a buck AND get rid of his stock, that he is willing to undercut the market. Clearly, the person is not familiar with the market's trends, because his pricing is reversed...male spiders at a fixed lower price, and females "starting" at a higher price. It is not a true reflection of the market, but of the trends we will be seeing as all these people are trying to break into the game. The same thing happened this year with albino and sunglow boas...I have seen albinos priced as low as $425. Very disheartening...but it will be interesting to see where the big names set their prices next year.

I have opted to make the purchase of the dom/codom BP morphs I need to meet my goals. I went with names that were familiar to me, and I was quite happy with both pricing and quality. Since these goals are largely for my personal enjoyment, my plan is to use the males I have purchased with some of my existing females UNTIL the female morphs are of breeding size. I may or may not hold back some of those babies. Once the new females are of age, I will be selling off my normal females...I just don't have the desire to produce ball pythons in any quantity. The plan for those animals once I reach my goals (a few bumblebees for me :D) is uncertain at this time. I suppose it is possible that I may yet be bitten by the BP bug, but I'd lay odds against it.
 
I know it sounds insane, but it is market value. This is based on supply and demand. If there are a whole bunch that are produced, and not as many buyers as the market will hold, then the price will be bound to fall.

This would happen with any morph that is mass produced. If everyone had pieds, and more are produced, then they will take a plunge as well.

This does not only happen in the reptile world. Does anyone remember when silver took the great plunge? I can remember when it was worth a very high dollar. Now what is it worth?
 
The Ball Python market is also flooded with people, many are interested in producing a quality animal- but not all. The guy who posted the ad is an unknown & poor quality photos as well- buyer beware. I don't see these type people hurting the market in the long run, because they will undercut the market past their ability to stay in business. Most anyone who is in this for the long haul will be looking for quality over "cheap", because too many times you get exactly what you pay for.

It does not change the fact that Dom & Co-Dom prices will drop as the market becomes flooded. The increased number of breeders & hobbyists will shape the market despite what prices the big breeders wish to set. We see the reaction in a more stable recessive market & more complex traits- mixing Dom & Co-Dom with Recessives or sweet triple threat designer morphs... if you plan around the trends it's all good. -Deb
 
It just ticks me off.
I wanted a bumblebee so instead of paying the extremely high price, I decided pastel/spider would be the way to go.

I look for quality and will pay for it. I'll put my pastel up against any of these "ugly" ones that have been saturating the market anyday. I paid a lot more than the crazy low prices they are listed now but IMO it was worth every penny. Bright, clean, super eater, and friendly. You need to start with quality to produce quality. I don't buy that garbage that dull ugly pastels produce nice ones so it doesn't matter what you use as a breeder.

When I was in the market for a spider, I went with a name I knew. At least that way I know I will get a quality animal even if it's more than these newbie breeders are charging.

The thing that ticks me off the most is when I have offspring from the pastel/spider cross, will I be able to get a decent price? Too many people are selling what is IMO, second rate animals at discount prices which is affecting the price of the really nice animals.

Everyone seems to be more concerned with price versus quality with these ads. I even saw an ugly bumblebee listed for sale. Never thought it was possible but this one was ugly and since the price was low, I now see others following the trend and dropping prices.

Eventually people need to realize that sometimes you get what you pay for. Cheap does not always mean good quality.

I am VERY specific about animals to be used as breeders but it seems like lately, there have been a lot of, what I call, second rate animals flooding the market and driving down prices on quality animals.
 
varnyard said:
I know it sounds insane, but it is market value. This is based on supply and demand. If there are a whole bunch that are produced, and not as many buyers as the market will hold, then the price will be bound to fall.
Click to expand...
I agree with your logic, but I don't necessarily agree that those prices are market value. "Market" for female spiders currently seems to be $1200-1500, males being slightly higher at $1500-1800. Sure, there are higher and lower prices out there, and it is not unexpected that an absolute unknown would have to undercut the market to make his sales.
Also, I don't think that the market is saturated with these animals yet. A $1500 pricetag still seems outrageously high to many people with even a moderate interest in reptiles. It doesn't matter if that is based on the amount of "disposable" funds, or just their attitudes about how much they will pay for a snake...as the price drops, the animals will strike an interest in a whole new market share. (Funny, years ago, I balked at the very idea of paying $1000 for a single snake...).
 
LOL. Steve, there are A LOT of ugly-ass pastels on the market, aren't there? Not to mention the low-white, spiders & that nobody will tell you about their bobbleheads
 
Exactly.

A spider should have high white sides and a reduced pattern. Some that are for sale lately are not what I would call "breeding stock animals". A spider should not have any of the alien patterns on the side like normals. :hot:

Same goes for pastels. Some are just downright ugly. If you have to look really close to tell it's a pastel, something is wrong. There shoudl be no question when you see a pic that it is in fact a pastel.
 
SPJ said:
It just ticks me off.
I wanted a bumblebee so instead of paying the extremely high price, I decided pastel/spider would be the way to go...

The thing that ticks me off the most is when I have offspring from the pastel/spider cross, will I be able to get a decent price? Too many people are selling what is IMO, second rate animals at discount prices which is affecting the price of the really nice animals.

...

I am VERY specific about animals to be used as breeders but it seems like lately, there have been a lot of, what I call, second rate animals flooding the market and driving down prices on quality animals.
Click to expand...

Don't be fooled by an ad, there are more people like you than you're giving credit. A pet owner maybe less picky than a fellow breeder or hobbyist; it's the people like us that demand quality & thereby ensure there's a place for the quality producer.

I'm VERY picky about my animals and readily walk away from "wholesalers"- too likely that the lower prices are at the expense of the animal. I do look for a bargain, the best animal I can get at a fair price & from someone who takes proper care of their stock.

As for whether you'll do well on your bee project, it depends what you were expecting, I knew my project wouldn't be ready until '08 (because I'm picky about my animals). I also figured that I'd be lucky if Bees are selling for 5K by then, so I'd better make sure I am producing the best possible. The other part to making it is to stick to your price- be reasonable, but I've no interest in being the lowest priced guy out there. You want quality then it will be reflected in a bit extra $$ of course. -Deb
 
SPJ said:
Exactly.

A spider should have high white sides and a reduced pattern. Some that are for sale lately are not what I would call "breeding stock animals". A spider should not have any of the alien patterns on the side like normals. :hot:

Same goes for pastels. Some are just downright ugly. If you have to look really close to tell it's a pastel, something is wrong. There shoudl be no question when you see a pic that it is in fact a pastel.
Click to expand...

Amen! BTW- here's my pair for my Bee project:
x1p3XelClY2z_lsRWUD-UYrzg0REjNrRIFL_WM-K_ceSsspeWrW_FzRV5FZrPSJpVC4TzEqthduhdTnlZ5bVSPQe3QGB6NNx4g_QtDTCIDax81NZxx-FpSqnELDJ4eCPIio

x1p3XelClY2z_lsRWUD-UYrzhl2ilQy7EuufM71oFnfwUveIBEUrQyIXnibCPxM_yFbvbn-clP_LcWQJzdFzW5K-3fTM5ZYbxA3CTp7MtK83xc63sTokfRV6p8G8AhcxvCv

Slideshow5.jpg
 
I am only hoping for a bee for my own. I am not interested in selling one. So if it takes a while, that would be fine with me. I just wanted to make sure I started with the best animals I could. Any non bee offspring would be sold for a reasonable price but I don't want to have to compete with lower quality animals that affect the price of what I intend on selling.

I have invested quite a bit in my animals.

A perfect example is a 2.2 group of boas. The price I paid for each animal is almost the same as what a few people have recently been advertising entire clutches for but I already have a waiting list for when they produce in 2008 so there are still people out there that only want quality but it's getting harder and harder to find them recently. I realize the markets will go down over time but to try and undercut and the wave of lesser quality animals lately just doesn't sit right with me.
 
Very nice!

I wish you luck when they breed and you hit the odds in your favor.
 
SPJ said:
Here's another ad.

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=425748

Female spiders at $1,175 shipped DELTA!

Same company with female pastels for $600 shipped!

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=425752

Personnally I think those are inferior pastels but with a low pricetag like they have, it will just cause others to drop the price to compete.

Too many are jumping on the bandwagon and dropping prices. :hot:
Click to expand...
Check out this guy on the BOI, though...anybody that checks up on him is going to take a pass, anyway. I only paid a very small amount more than that for my female pastel, but the difference is HUGE & it came from someone I am comfortable dealing with...someone that will still be around to point to in 2-3 years. Like many, I would prefer to pay more for a quality animal...even, sometimes, for the comfort of the right name attached to it
 
SPJ said:
I am only hoping for a bee for my own. I am not interested in selling one. So if it takes a while, that would be fine with me. I just wanted to make sure I started with the best animals I could. Any non bee offspring would be sold for a reasonable price but I don't want to have to compete with lower quality animals that affect the price of what I intend on selling.

I have invested quite a bit in my animals.

A perfect example is a 2.2 group of boas. The price I paid for each animal is almost the same as what a few people have recently been advertising entire clutches for but I already have a waiting list for when they produce in 2008 so there are still people out there that only want quality but it's getting harder and harder to find them recently. I realize the markets will go down over time but to try and undercut and the wave of lesser quality animals lately just doesn't sit right with me.
Click to expand...

I also expect I will be my own best customer to start with, but to pick out those fantastic animals and produce something spectacular... very exciting! Those boas you have must be awesome- good lines do make a difference.

I believe that the buyer becomes the ultimate part of the check & balance to the market. The pickier they are the more emphasis on producing better animals. In fact, wider availability can also allow for this too. Back when there were only an handful of a particular morph, choice was limited. Now, people can afford to be pickier. :cool:
 
RJBILBY said:
Anybody ever heard of Beanie Babies?????????????? :rofl:
Click to expand...


I remember Pet Rocks, but that seems like an Apple to Oranges comparison to me. I would hate to equate any living animal with inanimate collectables. I take it that you see this market as a fad then? Hummm... elaboration from you would be helpful.

I've worked with different species for the past few decades, and availability always effect price. However those that picked the better quality animals always fare better because when the selection is broader, people won't pay as much for the average or below average animals. So that is the flipside to price drop too... the customer's tastes and desire for quality. (IMHO)
 
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