What is going on with the Spider and Mojave market?

[hhmoore]

of course, while to me that implies that some spiders may have a pattern that is reflective of the "classic"...including the presence of alien heads, I don't know for certain that that is what Kevin (McCurley) meant.

 

[NorthernRegius.com]

There was a detailed discussion in the Kingsnake forums about the ideal Spider look in '04 I think & Kevin from NERD was in the thread, who better than the spider guy, right? Here's my little '05:

She's got a good amount of white on her sides (I've seen better though) her body & head pattern were exactly what I was looking for. -Deb

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Derek, for some people that don't currently own the morphs in question, it's a concern because they have a desire to buy them, but worry about them having hardly any value the next year or year after that. For me personally, I have plenty of plans to expand my collection over the next few years and I don't want morphs just for their value...but because I love how they look and just want to have them so I can enjoy them in person instead of seeing pictures online. Then there's always the concern for other keepers/breeders who actually have money invested in these morphs. Whether I know you in person or via the net, I still care about everyone in this hobby.

 

[SPJ]

More Bluefields??? Didn't you just have your other ones up for sale?
What else are you getting (I'm done shopping, officially out of money after this little spree, lol...I'll have to live vicariously through my online peers)

Back to the topic at hand.

I had them up to raise cash quick for a bill that came unexpectedly. It was one of those things where I knew I didn't owe the money but had to pay it and then prove the original bill was paid and get a refund.
Damn towns. They'll never admit they made a mistake 10 YEARS DOWN THE ROAD! I ended up getting the money another way then collected all the proof and finally got my refund so in the end I didn't need to sell them.

 

[SPJ]

Exactly.
If I spend thousands to get morphs and all of a sudden the next year they are worth 1/2 or 1/4 of what I paid, I could never recoup some of the initial investment. I buy them because I like them but I would also like to recoup at least some of the initial purchase by breeding.

 

[SPJ]

I'm done shopping, officially out of money after this little spree, lol...I'll have to live vicariously through my online peers.

I am too. I just went thru the checkbook and realized I spent way more this month on animals and the Florida trip next week.

All of a sudden I'm short a lot more than I thought. That'll teach me to not be using the debit card at the same time my wife is and not keep on top of what each other is spending out of the checking account.

 

[SPJ]

Oh come on now!
This is just pathetic. Males $1150 and female $950 OR BEST OFFER!

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=426824

There is also a discussion on KS about all the lowballers screwing with the market.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

WOW. I wonder what his animals look like though, for him to be asking that price.

Maybe these sellers should be sent e-mails...perhaps they don't know what they're doing.

 

[hhmoore]

WOW. I wonder what his animals look like though, for him to be asking that price.

Maybe these sellers should be sent e-mails...perhaps they don't know what they're doing.

Sure they do - they are trying to get rid of babies ASAP. Regardless of the reasons, many people are taking a GET THEM OUT THE DOOR, QUICK! approach. The "market" isn't their concern, except when they see that it has "gotten so bad" that they have to lower their prices to sell their animals.

My feeling - if you are THAT desperate to get rid of them...don't breed them. I have 05 some babies that I have neither advertised, or put as available on my website (no, they aren't holdbacks or keepers). I just genuinely like/enjoy working with everything I have. Any money I make from sales is purely secondary. My lackadaisical attitude will have to change, as I have a few litters of dumerils boas coming very soon...not to mention a few clutches of colubrid eggs in a few weeks. (I probably should plan on selling a few baby womas, but we'll see, lol). Time and workload will become a very real factor, and that is what will push me to advertise...but not at low ball prices (I will admit to doing that with a few live feeding dums last summer, just to get them gone...interestingly enough, it didn't bring the sales response I expected. I got bitched at by another vendor, and had alot of people tell me they would be back, but I brought most of them home)

 

[Fedawg]

Looks like Mike Powell .....

 

[RJBILBY]

Spiders

There's an ad on this site today for 0.2 spiders for $1000.00 ea shipped "this weekend only".

 

[Ed Clark]

hatchling pricing.

really would not get upset about hatchling prices,this happens every summer.there are snake whores that will sell for what ever they can get just to put a few dollars into thier pockets.they normally have inferior quality animals that are rarely feeding.people will forget that they may have paid you a little more money,for a snake that is healthy,feeding and thriving.but if they buy a cheap one and it dies.they will never forget that.

 

[hhmoore]

There's an ad on this site today for 0.2 spiders for $1000.00 ea shipped "this weekend only".

Is that an issue because that person is running a "weekend sale", or because of what the price is? I just made a purchase from somebody else that was doing essentially the same thing & saved myself some bucks. Bottom line is, just like Ed stated above, there will always be people that come in and slash their prices/undercut the market to make their sales. There will also be people that have good seasons, and do little "sales" like that to ease their loads a bit. Everybody knew that prices were going to drop this year, especially on dominant/codominant morphs...just like they will next year, and the year after. Pastels have been around the longest, so they are the lowest priced so far...but they will find their spot in the market and the price will stabilize (I believe there will also be more graded pricing, as was mentioned earlier in this thread). Spiders and mojaves will follow suit.
The decision for those wanting IN on the morph market, but leery of the declining market value (or those that can't quite justify the price of the particular animal they want yet) is: Do I wait until the prices drop more to get mine, or get in now? I opted in this year, because I didn't want to wait any longer - my interest in the BP market is minimal, but I want a bumble bee...not just any bumblebee, I want an awesome bumblebee, maybe even a killerbee. I don't really want to deal with BP babies in any quantity, but will do what it takes to get there. I do have some normal females, so my male lemon pastel & male spider will get some practice while they are waiting for their intended mates to come of age. Once that happens, most of them will be sold (I've actually kind of started to like 2 of them, lol). I'm not really in BPs for the money, but I have confidence that mine will pay for themselves...after all, it's not like it has to happen with one clutch, or even in the first year. I'm not going anywhere, and I'm sure I will have some babies to sell as I work toward that most awesome bee.

 

[markface]

i'm still pretty much a newbie as far as the morph thing goes . i'm buying my first pastel this year and am looking forward to breeding him in the future . personally i dont see the price drop as a bad thing myself . i'm not really looking to make a profit off any of the critters i'll be breeding , i'll be happy if i can recoupe some of the money i spend on food and other supplies . i'm poor old white trash so i have to start with the less expensive critters and work my way up to the more expensive stuff . it seems to me that there are so many new morphs coming out that there will always(or atleast for a long time to come) be high dollar morphs out there for those that want to use these critters as an investment . for me reptiles and more specifically boas and ball pythons are more of a hobby and a passion than a possible income source . if the prices drop low enough for me to be able to afford some of the more interesting morphs then its all good to me . i just dont see the point in getting upset about critter prices following the basic laws of supply and demand .

 

[hhmoore]

Mark,
Part of the issue with the pricing is that some people invested in BP morphs and they are seeing precipitous drops in the advertised prices - with some of the dominant/codominant morphs, these drops currently approach 50% annually. I'm sure in some cases, there is a bit of panic/concern/resentment regarding how much they have into their animals compared to the current value...not to mention the thought of what the price might be next year (or the year after), when their animals are finally ready. Then, when people come in and start undercutting the market, it turns into sort of a doomsday prediction: the BP market is crashing. the BP market is crashing (repeat as many times as necessary for effect, lol).
As an example, when I first saw a baby bumblebee in late '04, it was priced at $35,000. A year later (05), babies were advertised for $15,000-17,000. Now, they are typically advertised at around $6000-8500. This is not unexpected, all one has to do is look back at pastel, spider, and mojave pricing over the past several years. When you can breed a morph to a normal and get visible morphs, alot of the work is eliminated...no need to outcross & work with hets. Sure, BPs produce relatively small clutches; but look at the sheer volume that are being bred. (*I just deleted a large piece of this because I was getting rather verbose, but not saying anything that isn't common knowledge, lol)

 

[markface]

i can understand why people get upset . i just think that anytime you invest , weather in the stock market or bp morphs , you have to be ready for things to not go the way you want them to . as you said , the price of pastels , mojaves and spiders have dropped tremendusly and so people should be able to take a hint from those . if i was going to invest in an animal for the purpose of making money i would go for something with less chance of it losing its value . something like prehensile tail skinks which generally lay 1 or 2 eggs a year . if someone buys a single animal or even a pair of them at a very high price they are taking a gamble that it will still be worth enough for them to get their pay off when they are able to breed them out . to me if you cant afford to gamble and lose , then you cant afford to gamble . if i had say 50,000 to invest in the ball python market i would probably go for a large quantity of less expensive animals (ie the pastels or mojaves and such) and just wholesale the babies instead of going for 1 or 2 high dollar morphs with no garuntee that they would hold their value . this is just MHO but i'm sticking to it .

 

[clarinet45]

"My feeling - if you are THAT desperate to get rid of them...don't breed them."

I agree 100%. every egg i let hatch, i treat like I'm keeping. Even though i advertise, i will not let my prices drop to accommodate lower quality animals and sellers just trying to push them out the door as soon as they hatch. I trade and sell, but ALL my animals are pets first.

 

[hhmoore]

The thing is, unless somebody goes well beyond their means to acquire a codom morph (ie, they shouldn't be spending that kind of cash on a snake when there are bills to pay/mouths to feed), they aren't relying on a one or two clutch payoff. But even in that situation - say last year, somebody with 2 female ball pythons, and dreams of riding the gravy train, shells out almost $4000 for a male mojave (that's a guess, but bear with me for a moment). This year rolls along and he sees them averaging $1700 +/-. Next year comes and he sees prices down to maybe $700 for males & $1000 for females. (OMG, The BP market is crashing!!! The BP market is crashing!!) Panic ensues, but he bred them over the winter and gets a total of 13 eggs...from which hatch 3.2 mojaves. If he sells all the mojave babies at market, that is still $4100 & he got all his money back and a little extra besides...and that isn't even counting the 8 normal babies. Maybe he is desperate, and cuts his prices to $500m/$750f. People bitch and complain about him, but he gets an immediate return of $3000 - the bulk of his initial investment - PLUS he still has the snakes to breed next year. Short of his mojave dying between purchase and the second breeding, he is going to make his money back and then some...it just wasn't the instant ticket that he thought it was going to be.

 

[markface]

that sounds perfectly logical to me . plus on top of that bp's live for 20 or 30 or more years and from what i have heard they can produce clutches well into their 20's . so they should be looked at as a long term investment . if i buy an expensive morph and i can make a profit even if its 7 or 10 years down the road , then i feel like i have made a good investment . granted the dividends (sp) my decrease each year til that particular morph reaches bottom and the price stabalizes , but in the long run you will still make money . i still think that if i was going to try to make a living off of breeding reptiles i would go for a large number of relatively inexpensive critters and do the wholesale thing . smaller profit margin but higher volume it would seem to me would be the way to go . it might take more work , but i have never been afraid of a little extra work . luckily for me i already have 2 jobs and reptiles are just a hobby that i love so i dont care if i ever show a profit . for me its enough to be able to breed my critters and watch the babies hatching and growing . also i like the idea of being able to either help someone else get into this wonderful hobby or to further someone elses enjoyment of it .

 

[markface]

sorry for the double post .
it seems like you and i are more or less on the same page harald . i just dont see where getting upset about the prices is going to do anyone any good .