Where am I going wrong with this site?

[Jim O]

Yes, I know. Everyone knows better how to run this site then I do. Just darn lucky it has gotten as far as it has, I guess, in spite of my inept handling of it.

Rich,

In all seriousness, and as humbly as I can possibly put this, when you ask, verbatim, "Where am I going wrong with this site?" then you are going to get responses. If you are going to treat them with that type of derision, why would anyone bother to answer? It's obvious that you just want to make a sarcastic comment when a nerve is touched. My comments did not ask for that, nor did they deserve them. Nor did they deserve the sarcasm of your previous response to me. I call them as I see them.

When the owner of the site makes such comments and gives such responses why is he surprised that people do in other parts of the site?

Next time you ask for advice, please remind me not to bother offering any as it's clear that you do not want really want it.

 

[shrap]

If this site is more than you can handle with your other interests than you have choices to make. But if from the time hatchlings start appearing to the time they are mostly sold you are unable to "police" this site then whatever "improvements" you make now will likely be ignored again come hatchling season in six months or so. Then it can turn into the wild west again for six months until you decide it gets your attention. What then will you have accomplished? Perhaps the first order of consistency is that the owner of the site be consistent in attending to it or delegate enough of that authority so that you don't just wake up one day and smell the feces on your rug. It did not all get there in one day.

Good call Jim.

Everytime a failure of duty from the Admin or Mod team is brought up there is always an excuse ("if you expect us to read every post" etc, etc.) or a complete dismissal of it.

Just once I would love to hear an honest response like "yep we dropped the ball on that one" or even "thanks for bringing that to our attention". Instead of the complete and total lack of accountability and responsibility that has been displayed thus far.

Honestly Rich, I am not trying to give you a hard time in any way, bud. Just sharing my honest opinion. Like I said earlier. No amount of rules are going to change how people behave. They are who and how they are. Just look at our society today. We have umpteen million laws on the books in this country, but it has not deterred crime or unacceptable behavior in the slightest. What makes you think it will work here? Removal of the bad apples is the only way to go, not massive rule changes.

Whatever you decide to do Rich I wish you the best of luck and hope it results in a better community for us all.

 

[Lucille]

Yes, I know. Everyone knows better how to run this site then I do. Just darn lucky it has gotten as far as it has, I guess, in spite of my inept handling of it.

That is why I ask for input sometimes, to see where I am going wrong.

I am trying to do better, but in reality, no, this is not my main reason for living. And I certainly am at fault for believing the best in people rather then expecting the worst.

You do a terrific job with this site.
I am glad you believe the best of us.

Many,many,many reptile people call this site their home despite numerous other sites in existence.
Where else on the internet would we get asked for our input, the way this question asks our opinion?

Fauna rocks.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Imagine a board 1/3rd the size of Fauna that doesn't require any moderators. Rich has already created such a community. IMO it is because of the "no nonsense" and common sense enforcement of plain old common decency. It has become a place where the core members police the board themselves, and in a way that doesn't make it hostile to new members. That place rarely requires his intervention, even when there is plenty of controversy. It is not "happy foo-foo love fest land" by any measure, but it is certainly a civilized place. I'm guessing that is Rich's goal.

Rich, if you think that enacting the same type of no-nonsense enforcement of plain old common decency will make Fauna a better place, I for one think you're right on target! I'm sure you will get plenty of gripe-o-grams in the process. Maybe you could make some extra money by publishing them in a Newsletter and selling it for ten bucks a copy.

One other thing: (which doesn't require specs or programming)

If you plan to keep vBulletin's rep system, you might consider turning off the red dots. We all know that, ideally, it is supposed to be a way to give constructive criticism. But in reality it is almost always given and/or received as a form of antagonism. I doubt anyone could find an example where red dots have lead to a positive outcome, let alone show that it is an overall positive influence on the forum.

 

[Bill_Leverton]

I have to admit that alot of good points have been brought up here,and yes this site is what some people call home, And yes it does serve its purpose. But I feel that the site is losing integrity when the "Swanger Duels" get out of hand.When I first got here a couple of years ago this site was more about information. Now its more about who's swanger is bigger, yes there are alot of times that this gets out of hand, Jeez just look at my thread half of it has nothing to do with the subject at hand So in closing yes I do agree, that there needs a hard hand coming down and get this site back on track JMHO

 

[akaangela]

a quick note from me. How long have you been checking these numbers? I know now that summer is over and my job is active I have very little free time. So my tiime to play on the internet is gone. I do like to check in but it is not as high of priorty as it was before. I think you are doing a great job.

 

[WebSlave]

Rich,

In all seriousness, and as humbly as I can possibly put this, when you ask, verbatim, "Where am I going wrong with this site?" then you are going to get responses. If you are going to treat them with that type of derision, why would anyone bother to answer? It's obvious that you just want to make a sarcastic comment when a nerve is touched. My comments did not ask for that, nor did they deserve them. Nor did they deserve the sarcasm of your previous response to me. I call them as I see them.

When the owner of the site makes such comments and gives such responses why is he surprised that people do in other parts of the site?

Next time you ask for advice, please remind me not to bother offering any as it's clear that you do not want really want it.

That wasn't derision, Jim. That was my honest opinion. Perhaps your interpretation of what I said is colored by your own bias. Yes, I am having doubts about my ability to run this site. That's why I ask people's opinions and try some different things now and again.

 

[Jim O]

That wasn't derision, Jim. That was my honest opinion. Perhaps your interpretation of what I said is colored by your own bias. Yes, I am having doubts about my ability to run this site. That's why I ask people's opinions and try some different things now and again.

I accept your word, Rich and I apologize for the insinuation. However, that was not the impression that I got from reading it. Perhaps you ought to come back to the following quotes in a few days and re-read them and see how you might take them if they were directed at you when you were trying to be helpful to someone at their request:

Do you seriously think I sit here reading everything 24/7? Do you think I really care to read stuff I have absolutely no interest in? Do you really think my time is of so little value to me that I have nothing better to do? Do you REALLY think I monitor the stats at all and would note an increase such as you indicate? Well if you do, I am sorry, but somehow you have become severely misinformed about what I do with my time and efforts. YOU have 4,000+ corn snakes hatch out and see how much time you have to spend on a secondary concern like this. I am only now beginning to get into a slower time of year, as the adults are going into brumation and a substantial portion of the babies have been sold, so THAT is why I am now turning more of my attention to this site. Sorry if you got the wrong impression about any external events that were bigger blips on your radar then they were on mine.

Yes, I know. Everyone knows better how to run this site then I do. Just darn lucky it has gotten as far as it has, I guess, in spite of my inept handling of it.

Whether those two passages were intended as the blathering of a self-important pompous ass or not they sure as heck came out sounding like it to me. That was my point. If you cannot control how you sound (irrespective of what you may mean) when you address someone who is legitimately offering advice it is going to be hard for you to expect it of others. "Do as I say not as I do" may occasionally work with young children but rarely holds water with adults and adult aged children.

 

[WebSlave]

I accept your word, Rich and I apologize for the insinuation. However, that was not the impression that I got from reading it. Perhaps you ought to come back to the following quotes in a few days and re-read them and see how you might take them if they were directed at you when you were trying to be helpful to someone at their request:





Whether those two passages were intended as the blathering of a self-important pompous ass or not they sure as heck came out sounding like it to me. That was my point. If you cannot control how you sound (irrespective of what you may mean) when you address someone who is legitimately offering advice it is going to be hard for you to expect it of others. "Do as I say not as I do" may occasionally work with young children but rarely holds water with adults and adult aged children.

Well, I guess I am not going to wait until the new system is in place afterall to implement the more hardline rules I am planning on implementing. Honestly, I would not put up with this sort of talk from anyone on my CornSnakes.com site directed at me, and I am certainly not going to take it here. If you think you can speak to me in a less condescending and less derogatory manner, you can pay your $10 fine and come back, Jim. Otherwise spend that 30 seconds you spoke of and figure out where you want to go next.

 

[WebSlave]

Imagine a board 1/3rd the size of Fauna that doesn't require any moderators. Rich has already created such a community. IMO it is because of the "no nonsense" and common sense enforcement of plain old common decency. It has become a place where the core members police the board themselves, and in a way that doesn't make it hostile to new members. That place rarely requires his intervention, even when there is plenty of controversy. It is not "happy foo-foo love fest land" by any measure, but it is certainly a civilized place. I'm guessing that is Rich's goal.

Rich, if you think that enacting the same type of no-nonsense enforcement of plain old common decency will make Fauna a better place, I for one think you're right on target! I'm sure you will get plenty of gripe-o-grams in the process. Maybe you could make some extra money by publishing them in a Newsletter and selling it for ten bucks a copy.

This is actually a good point, Chuck. At that site I simply refuse to put up with any crap, particularly when it is directed at me. That is my "fun" site to play with. Interestingly enough, it is a very self run site where I seldom have headaches originating from.

I am open to criticism, but NOT to blatant derogatory statements or name calling, even in an oblique or inferential manner. That aspect of this site has now come to an abrupt end.

 

[Dr Owens]

Well, I guess I am not going to wait until the new system is in place afterall to implement the more hardline rules I am planning on implementing. Honestly, I would not put up with this sort of talk from anyone on my CornSnakes.com site directed at me, and I am certainly not going to take it here. If you think you can speak to me in a less condescending and less derogatory manner, you can pay your $10 fine and come back, Jim. Otherwise spend that 30 seconds you spoke of and figure out where you want to go next.

Good call Rich! There is absolutely no reason that you should have to put up with this kind of antagonistic garbage on your forum. You pay the bills. You make the rules. Period.

Like you said, if people don't like it, then they can find another site on which to display their "social shortcomings." Myself, and the other mods support you 100% in your efforts clean things up around here. We have all said so in private...the purpose of this post is to reiterate that support publicly.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

In regards to posting on the BOI.

I am not sure, I believe it was suggested during the course of this thread that posting on the BOI should be limited to individuals involved in the topic of the situation. In my opinion, such a rule would be a tremendous disservice to those seeking help and conflict resolution.

Mr. Pritzel had some very good points in his posts. I agree with the majority of them but would also seek clarification in regards to the BOI. What would still be allowed?

Rich, do you believe some “antagonism” maybe still required in few situations in order to reach truth and prove out possible scammers and wrong doers? I count many threads in just the last few months that if it were not for the pressure of the BOI and its members, individuals would not have received a resolution. I know the BOI is suppose to be more of a track record of transactions for future purchases but it is wonderful when we (all of us) can make a difference after and during the transaction. I know privately what members have done behind the scenes to right some wrongs.

Listed below are a few examples of recent situations posted on the BOI. If it were not for the members here the individuals would not have received a resolution. I am proud of the fact that we can make a difference

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71523
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67790
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58414
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70240

And just maybe another, as I type this.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?p=318808&posted=1#post318808



I would hope the bite from the BOI to the bad guys, would not be hampered by any changes that take place. Of course, if the direction you decided to take would also sterilize the BOI a little, I would understand why.
Sometimes, it is hard to see the usefulness of certain posts. I know I wouldn’t want to be the one to judge the posts and would not envy the ones who would.

I still see a need for a “Ferret”.

You have taken quite a stand against the garbage that plagues the reptile community.
I know, maybe it does not mean much coming from me but I am proud of you for this.
That is one of the reasons I paid to join Fauna. Another reason would be the members.
Even those I disagree with occasionally.

Anyway, I can’t see you implementing any changes that I could not abide by.

 

[ms_terese]

I would hope the bite from the BOI to the bad guys, would not be hampered by any changes that take place.

I'm with you. While I wouldn't consider myself a "oldtimer" here, I've been around for a few years. When I look back at the bullying on the BOI from that time, it was not filled with name calling, toilet humor, inappropriate pictures, etc. It was filled with facts, "ferreted" information, blatant challenges to prove one thing or another, and people moved on. It was effective, pretty harsh on the bad guys, but it was meted out in Clint Eastwood style. There was a ruthless attack to defeat the scammer, but once he was down, the message was to shape up and don't make us do it again....not a gleeful dismembering of the corpse, which is now frequent on the BOI and other forums.

You can be harsh and still be respectable.

 

[Wilomn]

Anyone who has raised kids has a pretty good correlation to what's happening here.

This site is growing up and some of the things that happen here are good and some need improvement.

The thing is there has to be firm parenting/leadership in order to hold order and standards at a minimum acceptable level. So far that leadership has not been present often enough.

I suspect that things will level off IF that leadership materializes and is itself of a respectable nature. IF however the leaders are NOT above reproach, then history may well repeat itself. That or you will have a less effective BOI as posters hold back either through fear or lack of care, both of which will pretty much make the BOI less than its potential makes possible.

 

[Rebel Dragons]

I suspect that things will level off IF that leadership materializes and is itself of a respectable nature. IF however the leaders are NOT above reproach, then history may well repeat itself. That or you will have a less effective BOI as posters hold back either through fear or lack of care, both of which will pretty much make the BOI less than its potential makes possible.

It's not a thing of the future, Wes. People already hold back from fear and lack of concern. Who wants to get ripped apart because someone disagrees with you? And lord help you if you disagree with one of the wolves. There is a definite "pack of wolves" on this site. The members of the pack change from time to time but some wolves are there 24/7.

I would venture to say the effectiveness of the BOI is already lower than potential. It has in my opinion went south quite a bit in the last 6 months and the wolves are the main problem.


Lack of leadership is an issue. Members gettin too big for their britches is another. The list goes on and on. I guess we just have to sit back and see what happens.

 

[Wilomn]

Then those of you who know those who are not posting need to let those who are keeping the quiet ones away know what they are doing.

I know that as I tootle merrily along I rarely wonder about those who won't post or the reasons they won't post.

While there are packs, a definate here, there are also those who run alone; only occasionally joining in on a kill or some toying with prey. This is not only true of our wild canines you spoke of but here as well. Not all wolves run in packs. Not all wolves think exactly the same. Hell, not even all the wolves get along all the time.

I'm fairly certain that I can be considered one of the wolves. Let me also say this. If you're genuine or convince me that you are, there is nothing to worry about. If you're not then you're fair game. This is fairly well understood by most. I hope it is anyway and if it is not then I have been guilty of opperating under the ASSumption that it was.

Don't be too quick to lump all canids together though.. There are several different sub-species present here on this board. While the end goal may be the same, the outing and routing of a bad guy, the roads by which journey's end are reached are not always roads travelled in packs.

Hubris, the too big for their britches part, is very hard to deal with. That too is seen here more often than I would expect. Some, those who don't know me well, could even come to the mistaken conclusion that I too am guilty of this hubridity of which I speak. I don't think that's true, though I could be wrong.

Besides as has been mentioned quite recently, I ain't much for britches anyway.

 

[Rebel Dragons]

Then those of you who know those who are not posting need to let those who are keeping the quiet ones away what they are doing.

I know that as I tootle merrily along I rarely wonder about those who won't post or the reasons they won't post.

While there are packs, a definate here, there are also those who run alone; only occasionally joining in on a kill or some toying with prey. This is not only true of our wild canines you spoke of but here as well. Not all wolves run in packs. Not all wolves think exactly the same. Hell, not even all the wolves get along all the time.

I'm fairly certain that I can be considered one of the wolves. Let me also say this. If you're genuine or convince me that you are, there is nothing to worry about. If you're not then you're fair game. This is fairly well understood by most. I hope it is anyway and if it is not then I have been guilty of opperating under the ASSumption that it was.

Don't be too quick to lump all canids together though.. There are several different sub-species present here on this board. While the end goal may be the same, the outing and routing of a bad guy, the roads by which journey's end are reached are not always roads travelled in packs.

Hubis, the too big for their britches part, is very hard to deal with. That too is seen here more often than I would expect. Some, those who don't know me well, could even come to the mistaken conclusion that I too am guilty of this hubridity of which I speak. I don't think that's true, though I could be wrong.

Besides as has been mentioned quite recently, I ain't much for britches anyway.

I really wasn't referring to you personally in any of my comments. I think you know that. It's just a complicated situation..........

And I would say it's safe to ASSume your a wolf, Wes. You may even be Fauna's Alpha Male?!?!?

 

[shrap]

There are several different sub-species present here on this board.

OH!! OH!!! Can I be a Weiner Dog?!?!?!

 

[Wilomn]

OH!! OH!!! Can I be a Weiner Dog?!?!?!

I believe only you can answer that one and so I say to you, " I don't know. CAN you?"

heh heh heh


Mine is not the permission to give,
Mine is only the question to ask

ahahahahhahahHhaahahhahahHAHAHAHAHAHAHahhHHAHAHHAHAHAH

 

[WebSlave]

OH!! OH!!! Can I be a Weiner Dog?!?!?!

This is about as perfect an example as I can imagine of some of the stuff that needs to be cleaned up on this site. Seems innocent enough, but it is hijacking a thread about a serious topic, and an attempt, whether accidental or not, to send the thread off into an unrelated and irrelevant direction.

Part of the criteria that will be used in the future concerning warning points (and possible fine/suspension) will be the answer to the simple question "Does this post add anything at all to the information that this thread should contain to keep it on topic and worth reading?"

I know this seems like a really minor thing, and is probably intended to just lighten up the situation. But I need to make a decision about how to handle such a situation in relation to cleaning up this site. I hate to be the wet blanket that stifles humor, but where do I draw the line? If taking a thread off topic is going to be a violation, how do I make that determination without being very hard lined about it? Am I not being asked to make a decision as to whether the BOI (since this is obviously where most of the concerns are being placed) is going to be a place of entertainment, or a place where valuable information can be found? My feeling is that people want us to take the "valuable information" route, which means posts such as the one referenced above will likely get the poster into hot water, even if it was simply an innocent attempt to lighten up the situation.

I trust that not everyone will appreciate this change.

BTW, the coding is mostly done for the modifications I asked for from my programmer. Still a little bit of testing and fine tuning needing to be done, but I will be making the final preparations to implementing the "sweep".

It is not so much the wolves that need to beware as it is the "dead horse beaters" and the hyenas going after the remains. The types of posts that are going to be "over the line" is going to be quite difficult to quantify, but about the best I can describe it is that the wolves are going to have to become foxes and owls, using a lot more finesse in their kills.

Use the stiletto instead of the club when engaged in an argument. Dig for facts with a scalpel instead of a machete when the facts are given reluctantly or less the honestly. If you lose your cool before your adversary and start using derogatory language, name calling, profanity, or any other sort of abusive mannerisms, YOU lose and your adversary wins, because YOU are gone.

Some people will understand what I mean, while others will not have a clue. The clueless likely will not be around here for long.