Where is.....

[nicolai]

I would hope he gets treated the same as everyone else. No better no worse.

 

[ms_terese]

Good lord, what are you people smoking?

Why would you pay money to get Wes back on a site that BANNED him? Wes does not communicate in a way that is acceptable on this site. Why set him up for more controversy and drama?

You miss Wes? Email him. Go hang out where he hangs out. Call him up. Make a new group on yahoo or something where you and Wes and anyone else that wants to can exchange witty or piercing emails to your hearts' content. For heaven's sake, don't set him up by bringing him back here. The end result will be inevitable, and much harder to swallow the second time.

 

[WebSlave]

Rich, after the thousand is paid and Wes is brought back, when he receives another warning that requires a fine to be paid, will it be ten dollars like everyone else?

Yes, that is correct. The same warnings that apply to everyone else will be applied to Wes. If that $1K fine is met........

100 points, and he is banned again.

 

[Stardust]

Wow, for some reason I stopped getting emails that people were writing here still, thought it was done and over. Thought wrong.
Ask a simple question and get a what page are we on answer
So many things have changed since I first came on fauna. It started as a simple place to help people from getting ripped off, then came the forums, with that came new rules, rules I am still trying to figure out as they are changed on a regular basis and now finally I find that this is now a business (nice vette) Thought the customer was always right
It is good I started this thread here, it has always been my safe place for writing what I want. I won't pay for hell, I get that free at other sites.
Quite frankly, knowing Wes and being a "friend" to him for many years I am surprised he would come back. Then again, he does take pleasure in trying to make the bad people go away so the reptile business has a better name.
Rich I don't believe I even said that word in what you quoted then laughed about, I dont remember the word as some of this is pointless and humorous. And you mistook nearly all I wrote, Terese was correct in her understanding. Perhaps we should not assume.
Anyway, back to Wes. Perhaps he should have been made the second ferret, all of this would not have taken place. You can not catch a rat with a mouse trap. I remember you defending Ritchie Luna for his sometimes explicit efforts to catch a thief, is Wes much different? Besides not getting your approval first?
I am not putting the blame on you Rich, I have NEVER said Wes is a saint, in fact have gone up against him at times - we keep friendship and fauna seperate. Some people can do that you know. Some people can take the emotion out and know when to seperate. Some can't.
One thing I would say Rich, if this is your "business" then you should care what all contributors say as they are your bread and butter so to speak.
If Wes is truly willing to have contributors I will think on it. I may. I do not believe that is the right way for him to come back so its something I have to seriously think about as it is something I am not sure I agree with.
I am with Wes that one person, passive and emotional did something mean and vindictive and probably hurt Wes into anger and know what she was doing. I am disappointed at this and won't consider a friend anymore. As other people can see it too.
Chris Kennard, please don't even mention me if at all possible, I want nothing to do with you. You have gotten away with all of your points taken away, how unfair is that? If possible and to not cause conflict on this site I would rather just stay on seperate paths.
Damn, still can't believe this thread has gotten this long.
I understand the two day sit out

Terese, Butters is doing great, saved 5 of what I think his best off spring was

 

[Stardust]

oh btw, whoever said something about the views, that is not the actual number of people looking at this thread, everytime I come on to read or post the view going up again.

 

[WebSlave]

I am with Wes that one person, passive and emotional did something mean and vindictive and probably hurt Wes into anger and know what she was doing. I am disappointed at this and won't consider a friend anymore. As other people can see it too.

Oh gimme a break, please. If that isn't the most perfect example of blaming a straw for breaking the camel's back, then I don't know what is. It wasn't that event that got Wes banned, it was EVERYTHING up to that point that made one more warning just one too many.

 

[Stardust]

Oh Webby, I perfectly understand that. It still says something about charector.
And what is this groupie crap, thought it was a cult?

 

[WebSlave]

Oh Webby, I perfectly understand that. It still says something about charector.

Yes, it most certainly does. So do you truly think that coming back will change Wes's?

 

[Stardust]

Turned that around quite neatly LOL as I wasn't talking about Wes.
I do believe one thing in his letter, you have to take everything in account, even the positives or should anyway.
Even though I think you whine a bit at certain times, I totally respect you and love the snakes you breed as you know, I believe that you are wrong here, it is just my opinion, nothing against you, not even sure if you have ever admitted to being wrong.
Honestly, you went according to your rules, and did what you were supposed to do and what was right. The last "straw" was just that and one that wont come here and admit. Anyway, I would have, or sometimes if ya cant beat em join em. I do know I would have looked at his good done and perhaps gave him some kind of job. You never did answer me, is what Wes did, other then not getting your approval, much different then what Ritchie did? Honestly. Even the name calling.
As a business person maybe you should look into all angle of the situation. I was one that voted for strict rules, it got me a point, I deserved it, knew i was going go get it as I was typing. As Wes knew he would get it. Sometimes, there are exceptions. Sometimes the intention is good but looks bad. Sometimes, there is a whole story behind something simple.
I dont know, you can do what you want, I will still come here and buy only from fauna as I always have. Thanks for letting me have a voice here and a few good laughs. Perhaps I was wrong in my vote as every case is different. Hell you'd probably get your grand with him on faster with all his points If added up, he is probably half way there already haha
I am just trying to see the positive as well.
ok will shut up for now

 

[WebSlave]

Well, let's think about this. If a cop has a sterling reputation and has been instrumental in removing countless bad guys from the streets in the line of duty, but every once in a while, to the tune of several times a year, brutalizes innocent victims for no reason, should everyone look the other way? Should the captain of his department just say "Oh well, you all have to put up with it because the good he does outweighs the bad."

I can't think of any situation at all where someone can do "good" things that will enable them to do "bad" things in exchange without retribution. In any line of work or under any circumstances. Can you? Are there any laws on the books about anything at all that will plainly state that the penalties for violating such laws are exempt for someone who does good or beneficial things in another capacity? I certainly cannot think of any.

So you are saying, (using a rather poor analogy, but hopefully the point is still valid) that I should tolerate the great dane in my house because he is real good at keeping the burglars at bay, yet the cost is that he craps all over the rugs, keeps me awake all night long with his barking, has chewed up countless delivery people and visitors, and has chewed all my furniture to shreds? I should put up with that? Well why should I? Wouldn't it be better all the way round to just get a better mannered dog? There are a lot of them out there, you know. And in all honesty, perhaps the burglars would cause less damage then the dog is doing.

Anyway, as for the Ritchie Luna question, sorry but no, I don't recall Ritchie being anywhere near as crude, antagonistic, and derogatory as Wes has been on this site. Ritchie has had his moments, and has gotten warning points and heart to hearts, but he seemed able to comprehend what I wanted from him and able to adapt to my requests. Perhaps my memory is faulty about this, but I do not recall Ritchie being even close to what Wes has been engaged in on this site. But all of his posts are still there on the BOI if someone wants to research this issue. Not that I think it will make much difference at this point, however, but maybe someone else will think this is an interesting comparison project to undertake.

The issue HERE is that I specifically stated that I was tightening up on the rules here and intended to clean up the joint. It is the time frame AFTER I made this change in policy (which was early October, if I remember correctly) that is the crux of the matter here and now. And yes, it is entirely possible that had Ritchie Luna been still active on this site, he may very well have suffered the same fate that Wes did. Several people had gotten REAL close to the edge recently before finally realizing I was dead serious about this. Wes, so far, was the only one who apparently did not take the warnings seriously enough. In Ritchie Luna's case, I firmly believe that one strong warning from me or the other moderators would have been entirely sufficient for him to realize that his actions were no longer appropriate on this site. Even after multiple warnings, Wes just couldn't seem to be able to go along with the new program.

So there. Does that now answer your question?

 

[KelliH]

I am with Wes that one person, passive and emotional did something mean and vindictive and probably hurt Wes into anger and know what she was doing. I am disappointed at this and won't consider a friend anymore. As other people can see it too.

Oh, come on! So Wes cannot control himself? You know darn well he can. Wes is a very intelligent person, and I doubt he allows many people to "hurt" him into anger, especially the person it is so obvious you are referring to.

The members of this site want to clean it up a bit. I personally am sick of all the negativity, I bet I am not the only one. Am I?

I like Wes. A lot. That doesn't mean that I think that Wes should get a free pass (so to speak) just because he is "being Wes". Or should I say, "$1000 pass"? Are you guys that hard up for...? I don't even know what to call it! Entertainment I guess.

Terese is right, if you miss him, go hang out where he hangs out. EMail him. Call him. He doesn't belong here right now, he has been banned. Maybe in the future, yes, but right now, no.

 

[nicolai]

Omg!!!!

Why does it matter so much to some of you drama queens if we want to have a pool to get WES back, Why drag you self into this thread and whine about all the controversy and such when your coming on this thread and causing more melodrama. Stop the whining, "I dont want WES back...wah..wah...wah...", "Wes doesn't belong here...wah...wah...wah..", " I like WES but...wah...wah...wah". Come on people,
Wes, I know your reading and following this thread as you told me you are. Can you believe how this thread is playing out? Wes, I just want you to know that no matter what some of these people say I know you truly had good intentions at heart and meant well, but you had to stand your ground where (him and her) were concerned. By the way the pool is getting bigger.


Rich, that policeman analogy was a good one. I had to stop in my tracks to think on that one a while. another analogy one might put on the situation is this.

You have these or policemen as you have it that patrol the street (site) and on occasion have to issue a warning to someone for say jay walking, Then they may have to fine another person for say neighborhood spat and in some cases suspend a persons licence for wreckless driving and in the worst cases revoke (ban) them permanently for say an accrued amount of offenses. Now these same officers that are in charge of keeping the public safe from evil doers go around and hand out their PBA cards to the people they know and like to help them out in a time of need or in case they may cross that line once or twice and need it over looked, Now these same police officers set up a check point on a road (or thread) and check everybody that comes and goes and sure enough a few of the officers friends come through after a visit to the bar but the officer tells them not to worry about it just go home and sleep it off, yet here comes the one guy the officers dint like just because of his contempt of their authority ( not that he is a career criminal or anything), so they pull him over and give him the Breathalyzer and he is actually below the legal limit and should be allowed to pass as well, but wait, there is a law on the books that says if a driver acts or performs in a drunken manner then he can still be arrested for it and have the book thrown at him anyway, so of course these officers play their one and only option. So in the end its left up to the officers and their own interpretation of the law on how the law gets applied to the people in their jurisdiction. And since all the officers are street judges and their decisions are final and their sentences get imposed thats it, for there is no court of appeals to take your case to in the hopes of a mistrial.


This analogy isn't my way of saying he was wronged or that he didn't deserve what he got. it was a reminder that there are always different ways to look at situations and no two people are the same. Some people just like to watch what others do, some like to be in the spot light all the time, some people will be followers their entire lives and never know what it feels like to be a leader.

Look, WES got banned for accrued points/fines/warnings done, guilty as charged, convicted and sentenced..period!!!!! No arguments correct?
Now what i am asking is for is the same thing the persecutor says when he sees you before you go into court before you hearing on your speeding ticket. I will drop your ticket if your willing to pay this fine and not contest it in court. The town needs the money for the schools and roads they have to pay for and the person needs their licence to get back and forth from work. It is a mutually liked and worked out solution to the problem. The prosecuter is happy because the town got money to do some very much needed repairs, and the person is happy because he can now go to the parks and talk to all his friends about his hobby.

Nicolai - 40.00
chuck - 100.00
bill - 50.00
Chris K - 20.00
laura - 50.00
cat - 20.00
"p" - 50.00 (gentleman from hell that didn't want to post his name here.

TTL = $330.00

If Rich wanted to go by the original fine or 360.00 that would have been imposed we would just about have that now!!!

 

[ms_terese]

Why does it matter so much to some of you drama queens if we want to have a pool to get WES back, Why drag you self into this thread and whine about all the controversy and such when your coming on this thread and causing more melodrama. Stop the whining, "I dont want WES back...wah..wah...wah...", "Wes doesn't belong here...wah...wah...wah..", " I like WES but...wah...wah...wah". Come on people,

Oh yeah, I'm the drama queen

You're not getting my point. You aren't trying to help Wes. You're trying to bring him back here to benefit things OTHER than Wes. You said it would benefit the BOI for him to be here.

Try to follow my logic here. 1) This isn't your site. It's Rich's. 2) Rich made the decision to ban Wes based on his recurring behavior. HE FEELS WES' BEHAVIOR WAS/IS DETRIMENTAL TO HIS SITE. 3) Wes is Wes, and his behavior here will not change. 4) Rich has his rules, and they are not going to change if Wes returns. 5) The end result will be the same.

Do you know what the definition of insanity is? It's doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Answer this question for me, Nicholas: how will Wes benefit from being back here?

 

[nicolai]

follow my logic here 1) this is rich's site not yours 2) rich decided to let wes come back for 1,000.00 ,so who are you to say he shouldnt, did rich make you a partner in his business?3) WES is an intelligent person and as such has the ability to change 4) Rich does have his rules and his rules will still apply 5) Hopefully the end result will be different and doesnt get banned again.

Do you know what the definition of friendship is: A person whom one knows, likes, and trusts,an acquaintance, A person with whom one is allied in a struggle or cause; a comrade, One who supports, sympathizes with, or patronizes a group, cause, or movement.
Or the street definition: the people that have your back when the when some around you would like nothing better then get you while your back is turned.

Answer this Question for me: Why are you so involved on this issue?

 

[ms_terese]

Answer this Question for me: Why are you so involved on this issue?

I'm involved because I think the motivations of those trying to bring Wes back are selfish. I think Wes' friends would be interested in doing things that are to Wes' benefit. Wes hasn't even said he WANTED to come back here; he said he would CONSIDER it if it were an option. Of course, he also indicated that he may have gotten banned intentionally. Hmmmm. In reading this thread, the sentiments expressed are that people "miss reading" Wes' posts; that Wes would be a benefit to the BOI; that the entertainment factor is missed. Bringing Wes back here is in their best interest for their own reasons, not for Wes' benefit. Yet here you are, leading this march under the ruse of your friendship with Wes?

I'm clear on the definition of friendship, thank you. I've managed to maintain relationships with friends when we become separated by miles, schools, jobs, or schedules...and I can certainly maintain relationships with people who frequent different websites

I'll tell you what, Nicholas. If Wes says "I want to come back to Fauna, and will change my behavior to suit the rules if the $1,000 can be raised", I'll kick in some cash too.

Now that I've answered your question, will you answer mine? I'll ask it again:

Answer this question for me, Nicholas: how will Wes benefit from being back here?

 

[Jim O]

Try to follow my logic here. 1) This isn't your site. It's Rich's. 2) Rich made the decision to ban Wes based on his recurring behavior. HE FEELS WES' BEHAVIOR WAS/IS DETRIMENTAL TO HIS SITE. 3) Wes is Wes, and his behavior here will not change. 4) Rich has his rules, and they are not going to change if Wes returns. 5) The end result will be the same.

Do you know what the definition of insanity is? It's doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

I like Wes. I admire him. He is one of the "good guys". But as he said himself, it wouldn't be the same. This $1000 would be throwing good money after bad so to speak. I'd like to see him back but we all know that he wouldn't last. Not that he is incapable of change but simply that he will not. Rich has made it clear that he will give no leeway to Wes simply because he is Wes. This is Rich's site and Rich's call. Am I happy about it? Hell no. I have a choice just as we all do to "vote with my feet".

Terese, I would give you more positive Karma for this post but this system is set up to prevent that (seeing as I gave you Karma yesterday or the day before for another insightful post) as Rich saw it as "abuse". So I'm publicly recognizing you rather than doing so privately.

 

[nicolai]

to answer your question - I think that WES will benefit from being just for the sake that he enjoys the site and most of the people on it. He not only spent time on the BOI and the admin forums arguing but also frequented other forums like the Leo forum to have fun there and to the hell forum to get some knickers in an uproar, even in the lonely hearts forums in name could be found. He aways stated that he liked the site but didn't always agree with how it was run. Wes also possesses a great sense of humor and intelligence that those that know him admired him for it and enjoyed as a lot of his stories and jokes were amazing.
Look, in the end this whole thing may not play out the way i would like it to and I may be forced to go join TRR to go talk to him there or over at TSE. But this site has always been where i spent my time over the past few years and would like to see him back again. We will just have to wait and see. Rich is expanding into other projects like the other BOI for the general public and he has his breeding projects that take up a lot of time as well so as he and his businesses grow he wont be spending as much time here and unfortunetely the place will likely get more towards a sterile type of enviroment that things are automated to be handled through preprogrammed parameters for warnings, points , suspensions and such. The site will inevitably loose some of its own personallity in the process as well. Whats the wrong in wanting to keep a lot of the personalities that helped shape fauna into the thing it is today. As each leaf falls from a tree over time you will be left with just a trunk and branches not the beautiful, colorful tree that once blossomed for all to see and enjoy.

 

[ms_terese]

Nicholas, I think your heart is in the right place. I just think you might be a little naive on this issue.

This site, and its members, is constantly changing. While Wes was the only one that's left over a banning (I think), we've lost others of value: Robin Stuck, Darin Chappell, Daniel Wedeking, Seamus Haley....all good people, all controversial. We've also gained good folks over the last couple of years. It's a cycle.

How many people came here when they got fed up at KS or BC or other forums? Fauna benefitted from that. People who get fed up here and leave (either by choice, or by Moderator Assisted Suicide ) will go on to other sites and help them grow. It's that cycle thing again.

Wes being gone from here is sad, but it's not the end of the world for either Wes or Fauna. It's just part of the deal.

I'll say it again: if Wes himself wants to come back here under the current deal, then I'll kick in some money; but I don't think he's going to want to go along with that plan.

 

[nicolai]

Nicholas, I think your heart is in the right place. I just think you might be a little naive on this issue.

Not naive, Just loyal to those I call friends. Any friend of mine knows they dont even have to ask when they are in need of help.

This site, and its members, is constantly changing. While Wes was the only one that's left over a banning (I think), we've lost others of value: Robin Stuck, Darin Chappell, Daniel Wedeking, Seamus Haley....all good people, all controversial. We've also gained good folks over the last couple of years. It's a cycle.

You have a point about this site and things always changing. But do changes always have to be good? Robin, seamus,and Wedeking were others that i liked on the site even though i wouldnt consider them friends as they were people that shared time and effort with us on the site on multiple subjects over time.Sure Robin had a slight mean streak in her and a foul mouth at times but she was very likable and really liked her animals and the site.

How many people came here when they got fed up at KS or BC or other forums? Fauna benefitted from that. People who get fed up here and leave (either by choice, or by Moderator Assisted Suicide ) will go on to other sites and help them grow. It's that cycle thing again.

You hit the nail on the head with that one. As I ended up here as a result of what was going on at the time over at KS. (BC?). From the minute I started reading posts here I knew i liked it and wanted to stay as this site was more of a family than any of the others.

Wes being gone from here is sad, but it's not the end of the world for either Wes or Fauna. It's just part of the deal.

why does it have to be part of the deal. Why cant we put in his ante, shuffle the deck, deal him a new hand to start over with and see how he plays his cards this time?

I'll say it again: if Wes himself wants to come back here under the current deal, then I'll kick in some money; but I don't think he's going to want to go along with that plan.

Glad to hear it, as i am sure he is as well.

this whole issue reminds me of one quote from the bible.

"God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change,
courage to change the things we can,
and wisdom to know the difference."

I have the wisdom to know the difference, I have the courage to change the things i can and am trying, what remains to be seen is if i have the serenity to accept the things I can't change. I think WES never did have the serenity to accept the things he couldn't change and resulted in his banning, maybe now in retrospect he does.

 

[WebSlave]

I like Wes. I admire him. He is one of the "good guys". But as he said himself, it wouldn't be the same. This $1000 would be throwing good money after bad so to speak. I'd like to see him back but we all know that he wouldn't last. Not that he is incapable of change but simply that he will not. Rich has made it clear that he will give no leeway to Wes simply because he is Wes. This is Rich's site and Rich's call. Am I happy about it? Hell no. I have a choice just as we all do to "vote with my feet".

Eh? Jim are you REALLY saying that you WANT me to be biased? That I should treat Wes differently? I'm sure I must be reading this wrong, otherwise I need to earmark this post as another one of those classic "damned if you do, and damned if you don't" kind of situations.

Rich is expanding into other projects like the other BOI for the general public and he has his breeding projects that take up a lot of time as well so as he and his businesses grow he wont be spending as much time here and unfortunetely the place will likely get more towards a sterile type of enviroment that things are automated to be handled through preprogrammed parameters for warnings, points , suspensions and such. The site will inevitably loose some of its own personallity in the process as well.

You obviously have a whole lot more faith in programming techniques and abilities then I do. And I do have a background in computer programming. Quite frankly, I can't see the moderation process ever being automated. That will always be a grunt labor, human brain, kind of job. Even something simple like trying to program for profanity would be a major chore, if you think about it. I had to actually disable the automated profanity blocker of this site because I was concerned that I might mistakenly suspend someone for using profanity when the member had actually used asterisks intentionally to self censor their post. So no, the human element is always going to be required for moderation.

The warning system has been automated only in the sense that the fine and suspension takes place automatically when a HUMAN moderator applies those warning points. Then in order for the member to get back onto the site, the ability to do that through a PayPal account has been automated so that I (meaning ME) don't have to do it entirely manually any longer. My goal was to make it harder on members to drag this site into oblivion, by making the penalties more severe, and easier on me to keep that from happening by taking out much of the grunt labor administrative tasks involved.

The personality of this site will certainly change over time, but it will be a product of the people who frequent it. With some guidance, of course. The problem has been that this "personality" had gotten way out of hand and I had no other choice but to take steps to turn it around. I had personally witnessed far too many examples of just plain flat out maliciousness, name calling, and downright meanness from some members and decided it WAS going to end here. As such, those people who were making this site something that I was becoming less and less proud of were basically put on notice to change or be escorted out the door. I believe most everyone recognized their options:

• Adapt
• Leave voluntarily (ie: vote with your feet)
• Leave involuntarily

Wes, apparently, from his own inferences, chose to leave voluntarily by making the appearance of it being an involuntary decision. Why he would chose to do it that way is something that does escape me, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it. The only logical reason I can casually think of, of why someone would do that, would be to make themselves into a martyr with the intention of further harming this site by their exit. But that is only an off the cuff opinion, and haven't bothered to think about it hard enough to determine if I truly feel that way or not.

Perhaps this is all just an evolutionary process in a website like this. Beats me. This is all new ground for me as well. Certainly there are always other paths that can be taken at any step of the way, but it will be hindsight that tells me whether the choices I made were the right ones or not.