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whos in line for a raptor

I know Kelli, I love fauna to death because of that reason. I am just getting tired of everyone being anti-something just because it stems from the hands of Tremper. If it is a valid argument then I'm all for it, hell I personaly don't agree with a good amount of things Tremper does, but I'll base those reasons on facts, not personal bias. Hell, for instance I am not to fond of NERD, but they have done a lot for the ball community and produce some kick a** morphs I wish I could. Again, I am all for questioning Tremper (or anyone for that matter), but please use some intelligence when trying to make your case. I understand I am going out on a limb here, and I understand that perhaps I am making more of this then it is, I can live with that. Again, this is not out of respect for Tremper, which I have a great deal. This is about people trying to back up their case with no facts, no first hand knowledge, and why? Simply for personal bias. If some one wants to disagree with another please, for the sake of yourself, make a valid argument, and don't make yourself look like a fool. Who knows, maybe I'm just being grumpy.


KelliH said:
Justyn.. you know I love ya,.. but it's not a pissing contest, it's a discussion. That's why we love Fauna so much, we can have these open discussions here. Tremper puts his stuff out there on the market, he makes certain claims. That makes it an open topic for discussion. Same goes for you or me or whoever. The difference is I would be here discussing these things WITH people. And I bet so would you. I know that we are not as busy as Ron so I can understand his absence.

I think most halfway intelligent people realize the impact that Ron Tremper has made on herpetoculture. Myself, I respect him very much for many of the things he has done in a positive way for our hobby. That doesn't mean I will not question something that I do not agree with. I put no one up on a pedestel. Well, I take that back, I put no one in the reptile business up on a pedestel. No one is above questioning or discussion, Tremper, me, Bob Clark, NERD (those are just some examples off the top of my head).

I can't think of anything else to say on the matter, really.
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know you have a statue of me that sits high up on a pedistal,and you look at it in amazement and say to it everynight "i want to be just like your blind ass"
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No, I told you I do not put anyone in the reptile business on a pedestel!

Justyn, you are right, one should be intelligent and have some facts when discussing these things. My only real problem with him is the whole "Giants are recessive" deal but you and I have spoken about that a few times so no need to rehash it. I think that there are some "Anti-Trempers" (for lack of a better word, LOL) out there that do have some valid reasons to be, and do have facts to back that up. I am sure there are some 'Anti-KelliHers" out there as well too LOL and that is fine. Not everyone is going to like everyone else and agree with what every other breeder does.

You are right though, bashing someone for no reason, just for the sake of doing it, is wrong. But if you have a reason, well, then I guess that is a personal decision if you want to keep it to yourself or tell others about it. :eatpointe
 
Yeah, I have disussed the whole "giants are recessive" deal several times, and we each have our own view point with the exact same info at hand. You know I don't have a problem with your view on it and vice versa. Yes, there are a few anti-Trempers (or anyone for that matter), I guess it just got to me after reading so many posts that are anti-Tremper. I just wish the whole community was a tad bit more positive about their peers, and perhaps their relation to them. People do have good reasons to be biased (heck, I am), I don't doubt that, I just wish even with a bias they could look at all the facts and then come to a conclusion. Instead they often speak their mind prior, and I guess that gets to me. I know this is not an ideal world, but we can strive to get there. I don't mean kiss a** or anything, just tell the facts, good or bad. Guess my needless ranting will stop shorty, seems like I am doing exactly what I am against, ranting. Most of all, I guess I just don't want Fauna to turn into another kingsnake.com. Like you said, that enough, the end.

KelliH said:
No, I told you I do not put anyone in the reptile business on a pedestel!

Justyn, you are right, one should be intelligent and have some facts when discussing these things. My only real problem with him is the whole "Giants are recessive" deal but you and I have spoken about that a few times so no need to rehash it. I think that there are some "Anti-Trempers" (for lack of a better word, LOL) out there that do have some valid reasons to be, and do have facts to back that up. I am sure there are some 'Anti-KelliHers" out there as well too LOL and that is fine. Not everyone is going to like everyone else and agree with what every other breeder does.

You are right though, bashing someone for no reason, just for the sake of doing it, is wrong. But if you have a reason, well, then I guess that is a personal decision if you want to keep it to yourself or tell others about it. :eatpointe
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KelliH said:
I am sure there are some 'Anti-KelliHers" out there as well too LOL and that is fine. Not everyone is going to like everyone else and agree with what every other breeder does.
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No way!!!!!!!!!! You seem to have a very good heart Kelli........ and anyone who is "Anti-KelliHers" needs their head examined.

As far as Tremper goes, he told me that the gene is recessive....... He said he has Two males and a few Het females. I don't think he would want this to turn into another "Giant" situation, so he must be telling the truth.

Matt
 
i believe matt is correct to a point but let me say one thing we ALL make mistakes and in ron trempers case he has been doing this for over 25 years and to be quite honest with you he hasnt made that many mistakes in 25 years no one is perfect and he has probably done a million or so transactions with people you cant expect every single one to go exactly as planned but i am sure he will rectify any problem you may have with his animals if given the chance to like i am sure almost any reputable breeder should and as far as his prices go he has dropped his prices for new morphs 1000 dollars isnt bad compared to 2G for a male and 1G for a female albino back in 1999

just my 2 cents and i hope everyone is doing well with this new breeding season upon us
 
groovygeckos said:
last ron told me about the eye-color , it was likely "co-dominant" ,and "he was doing more test breeding" so i personally want to be buying a male
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So one person has been told it was recessive and one person has been told its 'likely codom'
 
MattP said:
No way!!!!!!!!!! You seem to have a very good heart Kelli........ and anyone who is "Anti-KelliHers" needs their head examined.

As far as Tremper goes, he told me that the gene is recessive....... He said he has Two males and a few Het females. I don't think he would want this to turn into another "Giant" situation, so he must be telling the truth.

Matt
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Here's the one where he claims its recessive.... just getting them both on the same page.


I'm pretty secure that this information backs up my previous arguments-
The trait is unproven from a financial standpoint, and there is a premium to be paid for it.
It makes the difference in seeing a financial return within one generation or the second generation of offspring. It's the difference between how saturated the market will be in one year versus two years.
 
it really does make a difference

It makes the difference in seeing a financial return within one generation or the second generation of offspring
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true but this trade is a "gamble" no matter how you cut it .
It's the difference between how saturated the market will be in one year versus two years.
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so why market something as co-dom only to have everyone and their brother mass produce it ?
last ron told me about the eye-color , it was likely "co-dominant" ,and "he was doing more test breeding" so i personally want to be buying a male
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OK let me add to this , i was told privately about this over 2 months ago BEFORE the RAPTORs that will be available had even hatched ,and im sure it is possible he has found otherwise by now.
 
Exactly.... why market as something that indicates the following year other people will have it available in quantity?

Instead market as something that will take two generations to reproduce, so the desire to be first to market overwhelms potential customers into rushing to buy from him this year at a premium.


And yes, this argument is not based on any certainty. However we effectively saw the same thing happen with the giants. I bought my giant for dirt cheap, pennies on the dollar, in comparison to what Tremper was advertising them as when he was claiming they were a recessive trait. And everyone bought multiple giants or worse yet "hets" thinking it was recessive and paid a small fortune unnecessarily.....
 
For those that aren't aware because some obviously aren't (or just blinded by a dislike for Tremper) he has released at least one female APTOR and female hets. Which, the last time I checked made it possible to produce APTOR babies in the 1st year.
As for the RAPTORs, everything is complete speculation and nothing but a judgement based on someone over something that hasn't even happened. Is this what we could call the reptile trades version of Minority Report?
 
Gene,

Just remember that there is no such thing as het, if the trait turns out to be codom.

A lot of people bought 'het' giants for top dollar. Virtually worthless animals if not for other redeeming traits.
I bought a giant directly from tremper after he decided they were codom, for pennies on the dollar. What I recieved had two deformities, one of which was very significantly noticeable and the other was an eye deformity which while slight could have unknown resulting health problems.




I'm sorry if I have a dislike for Tremper that shows through in my posts discussing him, but I also have not posted anything strictly for the purpose of bashing him, I have posted because it bears discussing when the topic at hand is 'who's in line for a raptor'

I recognize what Tremper has done for the hobby. But I also recognize what his marketing has done for it. And bear in mind that I gave him the chance to be judged fairly and rightly- I bought an animal from him.

How many people would find animals with eye and tail deformities to be acceptable?
If it was anyone else other than Tremper, there would be no one defending him.
He's produced and sold animals with multiple deformities, that is a FACT. I have living proof.
 
E2MacPets said:
Gene,

Just remember that there is no such thing as het, if the trait turns out to be codom.QUOTE]

Is this true? What about the co-dom traits that produce a Super Form. Mack snows are co-dom, right? Well, all mack snows are het for Super Snow. So maybe Tremper's Gene for Red eyes, is co-dom, but the Red Eyes is the Super form?
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codom is partial dominance... so even in the 'het' form there are visual cues.

I should have clarified... if the trait is codom there is no 'het' as we know it in simple recessives. So advertising an animal as being 'het' for a recessive trait means the animal has no visual indicator that it carries the trait. If the trait turns out to be codom, the 'hets' that were sold when it was thought to be a recessive trait are nothing but normals.

If you are a breeder and you buy a new morph from Tremper, you risk your reputation when you sell offspring from this new morph.
People who bought giants from Tremper the first year and then turned around and sold 'hets' have to stand behind the fact that because of Tremper's misinformation they sold customers normals at a premium price. Presumably many of the people who bought animals that were believed to be 'het' for giant would be upset about this.

How much money do you think the people who were selling giant 'hets' lost (if they refunded money upon the revelation by Tremper that giant was not recessive)?


But please, go on and attack me for being bitter and spouting off unfounded trash.
 
E2MacPets said:
But please, go on and attack me for being bitter and spouting off unfounded trash.
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I guess no additional comment is required on that except, isn't it funny that alot of people knock rich people driving around in their "fancy shmancy" sports cars when they themselves would just love to be the one that has their name on the title?

If it's a Co-Dom then would Tremper himself be selling Hets?
 
montezuma said:
I guess no additional comment is required on that except, isn't it funny that alot of people knock rich people driving around in their "fancy shmancy" sports cars when they themselves would just love to be the one that has their name on the title?

If it's a Co-Dom then would Tremper himself be selling Hets?
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You judge me with a derisive comment rather than judge my statements, what does that say about you?

However if we continue with your car comparison, then no I do not want my name on the title of a Yugo regardless if it costs more than a Bentley. Remember I speak from first hand experience, having purchased a gecko from Tremper with multiple deformities.


Valid point though that if Tremper is selling hets, he is likely positive that it is recessive.
In forming a reply to this, it makes me wonder though: when Tremper was selling Giants as a recessive trait, he refused to sell hets. Did he know it wasn't recessive? Many of the original giants that were sold weren't tremendous (giant vs super giant?) until he started selling Moose offspring (many of which would have been super giants?)
Tremper never sold giant hets, it wasn't until smaller breeders [who were selling hets] came out with the fact that the trait didn't seem to be behaving the way a recessive trait should that Tremper admitted there was no such thing as a normal looking 'het' giant, because Giant was codom.

So again I ask, or rather I answer the original poster's inquiry, why pay a premium for what Tremper offers simply because he knows how to market it to make the most profit in the first years after offering it?
 
well he sure did for the giants... nothing would suprise me ... besides he used to sell genetic "recessive stripes" now he says stripes arent recessive but rather polymorphichowever... those stripe genes if they are recessive..... thats what you are buying in the aptor... super hypo tanerine stripe or super hypo tangerine reverse stripe... wait but stripes arent a recessive trait so how copuld aptors be recessive if he says the stripe gene is polymorphic?
and man i wonder where that tangerine came from
 
as far as the car thing i do not work with trempers for a reason..... so the car thing isnt applicable here ( plus i dont drive... im blind : snickers : LOL)

but one thing i know is that the stripes i breed are infact a simple recessive trait... took two years to prove.... go figure... polymorphic hehehe... he is trying to pawn off these hhypo albino stripes as a new form of patternless LOL YAY .... i got a couple of those in the bell form... crap we could throw the blazing bleezards in a new patternless form too
 
:)

buy a new morph from Tremper, you risk your reputation when you sell offspring from this new morph.
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Well , i personally will sell the offspring that are obviously APTORs or RAPTORs as such ,the others as R/APTOR X "Het" , and outcrosses as R/APTOR X whathaveyou. until it is proven by ron , myself and others . the way i see it is , i am offered an animal i like , and would like to work with , i do not expect any guarantee as im am not yet offered one . and i am willing to take some risk . i have received nothing but top , perfect animals from ron myself , and im sorry to hear about others bad experiences
 
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