Why do leos glass-dance?

[Xelda]

I've been thinking about the various reasons that leos try to climb out of their enclosures. To me, the possibilities can be narrowed down to this:

1) They just don't like their enclosure (too hot, too dry, too small, etc.).
2) Their instincts are not accustomed to confinement.
3) They want to be handled.
4) They want to mate.
(feel free to add to this list)

#4 is one that I only started thinking about recently. Species survival depends on reproduction, so it only makes sense that leos get horny too. Now, since I don't breed my leos yet, I've been noticing that a lot of my maturing juveniles (even females) have begun to get restless, pacing about the tank, pawing on the glass, when in the past they had rarely exhibited this kind of behavior.

So, my question to the breeders is do you see this kind of behavior in leos that have had the opportunity to mate?

 

[teddy bear]

i do like the idia of the hole trying to get out to breed. but i do beleave it has something to do with bordom. thats what all the mali uromastyx breeders think when the uros do the "uro dance". killer was tottally ubsessed with getting out, then i got him a nice big jungle gym to play on, and now he doesnt even care about the glass.
nevin

 

[Spasmolytic]

Wow, that could be a hot topic. For me personally, it comes down to: Does any creature desire confinement? I can't think of many. This is where I have run into a problem recently. I enjoy my geckos, and think of them as pets; and as in more conventional pets, I can see different "personalities" in each one. I also like to be able to breed a small number of them, but am running out of room for tanks. So now comes the question, do I go ahead and get a rack which confines them to a smaller, darker, even less natural surrounding? Or do I just not breed them. I mean, I don't think it is "bad" to keep them in racks, but I would prefer to give them more opportunity to move about and have different areas to go in.
Same with my boa, she would love to get out. She'll be content to sit with you and wrap around you for quite some time, and puts up quite a struggle when it's time to go back in the cage. Same with my box turtles, when I take them outside they break for it as fast as their legs will take them, hehe.

 

[GaXX]

try this with the box turtals

Me and my unlce have made a 20 foot long encloser for them i know this isnt the forum for box turtles but this is alot easier than thanks and all of that... If you box turtles are a wild animal, they will become into tact with a person yes, but during winter they will know to go into hibernation..... If they dont already do that while they are in a tank. Anyways we just took and made a 20 foot enclosure out side in his back yard, Made out of.. Chickin wire, Cement( so they cant dig out) mulch, flowers, pond, and w.e. else we want to add in the future... Oh yea and sand for eggs!!! sence we did this we have been getting alot more eggs ...

again sorry for miss post lol

 

[riverjop]

Regardless of what you may or may not think, Leopard Geckos are way down the list of intelligent species. They don't think like you or me, but rather react & inter react on ingrained instincts. These instincts may have developed for hundreds and even thousands of years. They don't see that glass is "glass" but probably just another obstacle they must cross to escape danger or to simply move on IE; (food, water, breeding, habitat change etc....) In all likely hood they just are trying to get to the other side and there is something in the way that they simply cannot comprehend! Even animals much farther up the evolutionary chain can be observed "pacing" there cage and continually trying to get out.

 

[Manhattan Herps]

i agree

My juvies do this alot, juvis are not sexually mature yet so the opinion that they do this because they want to breed is probably false, although males and female do become somewhat restless during breeding season, i think this would only happen if the male could smell that the females are close, think once they become settled in and realize they arent tokay geckos and cant climb the class they'll stop, only new ones that i aquire do this untill they are settled in and no longer feel the need to do the earkle(sp? LOL) dance, also, what i have noticed with some of my friends leos is , when one does this he puts another one in with it and it stops "dancing" to go check out the other one, he lets the other leo poop once then takes it out, the original leo thinks the other is still with it intil the poop smell goes away, whn the other poop dries up the gecko starts dancing again and he puts the leo with another for good, and it stops it, im not saying this is what you need to do, it was just an intersting observation

 

[teddy bear]

sorry riverjop, id have to disagree with you on that one. i have 2 home made enclosures for my leos, both have sliding glass doors. killer my 11 1/2" male, and ecstacy my smaller bell, have figured out how to open the doors. mind you, they are plexy glass doors.
they will sit there and claw at the ends of them untill there claws latch, then continue to pull on them untill there open. killer got out 5 times, and ecstacy got out 2 times. i finally decided to get locks. they didnt start doing this untill they were out of there hide boxes and watched me open the cage, about 2 weeks after they were put in the new cages. intelegence is intelegence. just cause they dont have apposable thumbs doesnt mean you cant compair to them to us. i started a thread like this a wile ago, back on KS and ill try to find it. but it was all about intellegence in reptiles.
nevin

 

[ChuUtena]

Overton, I told my geckos what you said, and they cried. LoL.
As far as being smart, eh not so much, but the fact that they are "learning" in Nevin's case, how to open a latch. My experience is with just one of my juvis. In that rack I built, the front door hinges down. Now what my girl Scorch has learned is that if she crawls out in the center of the open door she will fall, so she spends her days (doing the glass dance lol) in the corners of the tank. Because if I was to open the door and she crawled out the corners, she can crawl up and out of the tank. Makes you wonder if they can think, and if they are learning that makes them capabale of something...right?

 

[riverjop]

they will sit there and claw at the ends of them untill there claws latch, then continue to pull on them untill there open. killer got out 5 times, and ecstacy got out 2 times. i finally decided to get locks. they didnt start doing this untill they were out of there hide boxes and watched me open the cage, about 2 weeks after they were put in the new cages. intelegence is intelegence. just cause they dont have apposable thumbs doesnt mean you cant compair to them to us.

sounds exactly like a "learned response"
to me.
And what does opposable thumbs have to do with any thing?

Oh I don't drought that Leo's have intelligence & that Leo's can learn! I mean if they scratch on glass, and they scratch and scratch and nothing happens "most" can & will "learn" that it is futile and eventually stop (most), if in doing this they hit a latch and "wham" there out then they "may" learn! Hey this is the way out! But I seriously drought that there thinking Hmmmm... "there's the latch I'm gonna go over their and open this door". And Id bet that any kind of research would prove this out! Look studies have proven that only two animal groups besides man can even reconise themselves as themselves! (great apes & dolphins) Thats looking into a mirror and thinking to themselves "hey thats me"! But it is interesting how intelligent "Reptiles" are and could be, I would love to see any studies that have been conducted on this subject. (my Tegu is watching me right now, I think he may be thinking " dam look at all those typos!")

 

[Missymonkey]

Who knows why, we can't crawl inside thier heads.

I tend to think that my leos are relatively smart creatures. It's all classical conditioning and learned responses. If your leo bites you, you tend to put him down and not let him out as much. If your leo is nice to you, you tend to take him out more and let him romp and hand feed him. Kind of like my husband.

Skinner taught rats and pigeons to peck at buttons or press on bars I don't see why it couldn't be done with leos. My hamsters (albeit they aren't leos) will roll over on their backs to have their tummies rubbed and then look in your hands for raisins.

Maybe we should play a little ABBA or Prince and see if the leos start the glass dance? We could start a new craze! It will be popping up in dance clubs around the world in no time!!!

 

[riverjop]

Skinner taught rats and pigeons to peck at buttons or press on bars I don't see why it couldn't be done with leos. My hamsters (albeit they aren't leos) will roll over on their backs to have their tummies rubbed and then look in your hands for raisins.

All above are conditioned response's, from positive rewards, you could get the same results by "training" them with negative rewards. This does not denote inteligence, but mearly is a response from either positive or negative stimuli.
I personally think that one of my female leo's is Mayrilin Monroe returned as a Gecko!, ahhhhh the way she looks at me with those big eye's, ......flashing those beautiful eyelids!!!
I know what she's thinking as she stares into my eye's!


GET ME THE HELL OUT OF HERE!

 

[teddy bear]

hahahaha, no no no, you got my post rong. i didnt mean latch to open the door. i ment there claws would latch onto the door, as in grab. so we are on the same page as far as intelligance goes. when i find the thread ill set up a link for you all to see about snakes and intelligance. im sure youll like it. when people say things like they dont have real intelligance, well i think, hmmmm whats intelligance, learing how to hitting a botton to turn on a tv, or figuring out how to breed, build a nest, lay eggs, and protect them, while finding foor for your self. but as i said im glad were on the same page, and i still think they do the glass dance cause there bord.
nevin

 

[teddy bear]

ps. if i understand what riverjop said in his last message correctly. are you saying that a learing responce is a form of intelligance? no offence, and i really dont mean to personaly attack you, but are you crazy?!?!?!?!?!?!? a learing response indicates learing, which indicates intelligance. oh, and did you kno that dolphins are the only other animal besides humans that have sex for pleasure and not just mating? hahahahah just a funny little fact.
nevin

 

[Xelda]

Just for the record, this is the article about snakes and intelligence: link But it's been around for awhile, so everyone's probably already read it.

Look studies have proven that only two animal groups besides man can even reconise themselves as themselves! (great apes & dolphins) Thats looking into a mirror and thinking to themselves "hey thats me"!

Overton, no study every proves anything. The first thing they teach in any fundamental science course is that there are no absolutes. Not even theories are proven to be the absolute truth, just pretty darn close based on observations and supportive data. If a theory were true, that would negate the very purpose of investigation. So just because a few studies have shown that great apes and dolphins can learn to recognize themselves does not mean they are the only animals besides humans with a grain of intelligence. Did the studies include EVERY single type of animal? Why would intelligence be measured on self-recognition? How were the studies conducted? I'd like to know, because even my dog learned when she was a puppy to recognize herself. She doesn't get excited when she sees her reflection in her water bowl, on the dishwasher door, in the mirror, etc.

 

[riverjop]

Wow! this is cool! LOL

and did you kno that dolphins are the only other animal besides humans that have sex for pleasure and not just mating? hahahahah just a funny little fact.

Wrong! There is also a sub-species of chimpanzies!
I don't feel like looking it up but if I recall I think there called OBO.....something??

xelda, if you go back and re-read my post you'll see that I said; Leopard Geckos are way down the list of intelligent species.
I didn't say they have NO intelligance! of course they do!
What I was trying to convey to the original post was that they don't think like you or me, what they are doing "in most probability" is just trying to escape!
And of course there are no absolutes when it comes to Nature! But there are people who have devoted there lives to the study of behavior!
As far as your puppy recognizing itself, I really doubt that it could look into a mirror and know that what it saw was himself and that tick sitting on his forehead was there , so he rubs it off with his paw. There are definite studies that prove this! Dang do I have to search this crap out for you?
One tiny article

Self-recognition is a major neuroscientific mystery partly because it isn't a universal trait of animals. For decades, for example, animal psychologists have known that chimpanzees can recognize themselves in mirrors. The scientists know this because they put traces of paint atop the creatures' heads, then watch their puzzled reactions as they gaze in mirrors at their colored domes.

By contrast, monkeys don't react to the paint. This suggests that monkeys lack a sense of self-awareness -- at least in the human sense of that admittedly vague term. Chimpanzees are genetically "significantly closer" to humans than are monkeys, Keenan says.
Just put in "self recognition in animals" into any search engine!...There have been so many studies it would fill volumes and volulmes and probably take you weeks to read it all!
As for the gecko opening the sliding door I did understand what you were saying, that he hooked his claws and pulled the sliding door (I just didn't explain it correctly, I said latch) I still would say that is derived from classic digging response, But I do think your Geckos, Do have a certain amount of Intelingence.
Just the thought that there "dancing" Makes me just smile and shake my head. Hey, but I could be compleatly off base! They may be smarter then you!...They just don't have opposing thumbs!!!

LMFAO

 

[riverjop]

another article!
In psychology, the response made by a person or animal after learning to associate an experience with a neutral or arbitrary stimulus. Conditioned response experiments by Ivan Pavlov (see Pavlov’s dogs) paired a neutral stimulus (sounding a bell) with a natural response (salivating) by associating the bell with the presentation of food. Conditioned response experiments by B. F. Skinner and other behaviorists (see behaviorism) associated an arbitrary action (an animal’s pressing a lever) with a positive reward (presentation of food) or a negative reward (an electric shock).


I love this stuff!
bring it on!!!

 

[riverjop]

Bonobos, are a sub-species of Chimpanzise.


Bonobos engage in sex in every partner combination. Same-sex sexual contact is common within bonobos, especially among females. Although the frequency of sex among the primates is relatively high compared to other primates, reproduction is still low. Female birthing periods occur about every five years. Bonobos engage in many sexual contacts, including face-to-face sex, unique to bonobos and humans. While their sexual activity is frequent, it is also casual. Bonobos daily activities involve reducing tensions, seeing and giving pleasure, maintaining bonds, protecting the young, and eating. (de Waal, 1997).

 

[teddy bear]

thats awsome. well those must not have been known about for too long. cause it was just last year that i was told about the dolphins. and for

Ivan Pavlov (see Pavlov’s dogs) paired a neutral stimulus (sounding a bell) with a natural response (salivating)

it was 2 colored dog bowls, not a bell. im looking at my sociology book right now. it was a red dog bowl, and a yellow dog bowl. i just got passed the class this simester.
nevin

 

[StinaUIUC]

It WAS a bell...I was just looking at an article that mentioned the bell thing and listed this citation "Pavlov. Conditioned reflexes, Dover, New York (1927)." That means he actually took information for that paragraph from Pavlov's own book about using a bell. The article was actually a bit odd...about a scientist trying to find the names of Pavlov's dogs to name defective memory phenotypes in drosophila (fruit flies). There were even pics of some of the dogs...I'd give a link to the article, but I found it on the UIUC university library website, and I think you have to be a student to use it...The article is on p. R117-R119 of the Feb. 18 issue (v.13 no.4) of Current Biology. If you have access to a University library you may be able to find it. Anyway...it was a bell, not different colored bowls. I'd have found something more concrete...but its almost 2 am and I'm tired and I didn't want to use anything that might be unreliable...lol

 

[teddy bear]

we are talking about an expearement done to cause sailvation. the one for sailvation exprearement was done with a YELLOW FOOD BOWL. a bell is the most common way to associat, and explain the pavlovian conditioning. Invintation To Psychology copy right 2004. pg 266.
Suppose that you train your dog Milo to salivate to the sound of a bell, but then you ring the bell every five minutes and do NOT follow it with food. Milo will salivate less and less to the bell and will soon stop salivationg altogeahter; salivation will have been extinguished. However, if you come back the next dan and ring the bell, Milo may salivate again for a few trials.
again, this was the simplist way to explain pavlovian conditioning. the accauall expearement happned like this, pavlov figured when the dog seen food he would sailvat. as in the picture here from the same book on pg 264.

then he went to the next step. putting the food in a YELLOW bowl. even tho the dog couldnt see colors. pavlove figured the dog would beable to see the lighter shade of yellow. pg 265

finally he only began to give the dog a YELLOW food bowl, with no food. when the dog seen the YELLOW food bowl he would begin to sailavate. as seen here on pg 266.

here is a pic of the over all expearement.

this picture shows the quote i took from the book about YOUR PET DOG, MILO, NOT HIS. here is one last pic to show what the bell was all about. eccept it was done with a light bulb. this was only to explain his finds and expearements easyer and better.

i kno the pics arent too clear but you can see what was goin on. the book was published in 2004. its a little bit newer then the encyclapida(spelling). i just proved to you what was done. if you would like to continue beating a dead horse with a stick, then go for it. im done talking about this. that is unless theres a question, but over all i did prove my point
nevin