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Why must people at shows lie?

Iguanachic

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My fiance and I went to the White Plains show yesterday.My fiance has wanted a boa for some time but I couldnt deal with the size.Then we see this dumerils boa.I fell in love and so did my fiance but we decided we couldnt bring home something that would get so large.The gentleman selling it chimes in that it gets no bigger than BPs.So we impulse bought and now we find out it has the potential for 6 or 7 feet.Shes a sweety and she staying and I probably would have bought her anyway if he would have told the truth.But instead he lost a customer to make $100 bucks.I dont know about some people.Opinions?Thanks
 
The gentleman selling it chimes in that it gets no bigger than BPs.So we impulse bought and now we find out it has the potential for 6 or 7 feet.

There are two numbers that need to be looked at... Average size and Maximum size...

Maxiumum size is always larger than average... it's sort of what the terms mean. Most Dumerils won't get too much bigger than a good sized regius... And, even being thick for a boa... the BP would be heavier.

The vendor might not have been exactly 100% truthful... Dumerils verage between about five and six feet give or take... Balls max out around five and a half (six for real mutants)...

The vendor also didn't really lie. Compared to BCI, dums stay much closer to BP size, certainly within a reasonable amount, it's not like he sold you a 'tic and told you they were sand boa sized.
 
Hmmm..... I don't know about that size thing. I have a pair of them and both are pushing 8 feet really hard and they're not unusual from what I've seen out here. 6 feet is not uncommon in my experiance. They are, however, excellant pets with great temperaments(?). They're really nice. In fact I can think of three people off the top of my head that have at least 6 footers right now.

As far as the lying thing, it sucks. But, you really have to expect it. Then when it happens to you you aren't disappointed and if it doesn't you're pleasantly surprised.

Wes Pollock
 
So will you be posting the dealer's name on the BOI? I go to the White Plains show quite often. I was there yesterday at the LIHS table. We give out free care sheets and information, try to recruit members and sell tee shirts to benefit our society. Too bad you did not stop there first and ask for info. If one of us had been in the know, we would have gladly shared the info.

This is a good tip for anyone buying a herp at a show. Ask for info on the snake from the dealer you want to buy from, but don't tip your hand in advance by saying: we only want a ball python sized snake. Just askquestions about the snake you are interested in - and only talk about that type of snake.

Maybe also ask at another dealer selling the same thing. But if you don't intend to buy from him, keep the questions to a minimum, cut right to the important one which in this case would have been size. Most dealers are happy to answer a curiosity type question, but don't bog them down with a ton of questions when you want to buy from their competitor. They do have a business to run so don't try to ask when they are busy making a sale or with a potential customer.

Also go to the herp society tables and ask there. Advice is free and you may decide to join a great society.

Never decide that is the only snake you will buy. You may shop around and find one of the same species, just maybe not as pretty, at another table where the dealer gives you truthful advice. That would tend to make me think that any health guarantee would be more trustworthy from the second dealer than from a guy who gave me a ration of bull chips. That may be all the reason to buy the slightly less pretty snake.


Also try to have an idea of what you want begfore you het to the show and study up on those animals before you get there. Forewarned is forearmed!

In other words, shop around first, do your homework, and don't impulse buy!

I was the guy with that $150 sub adult Rainbow Boa for sale, best price in the house on a Brazilian Rainbow Boa of that size, but no takers. I bought it from a friend who wanted to switch to corn snakes. I was trying for a modest profit, and it was a steal compared too prices on Brazilian Rainbows at other tables. Maybe next time! I did sell a nice young Bearded Dragon, although I was there more to man the society table than to sell anything of my own. Stop by for info next time, we are always glad to help someone out.

Best regards,
Glenn B
 
Dammit Glenn!
That was your BRB?!
I wanted to buy it but the low price concerned me. It just seemed like too good a deal and I kept walking. It was a really good size nice looking animal animal for less then the babies at other tables.
Sh$t.
I knew I should have bought it.
 
FYI Dum/Regius size

In regards to the size issue.... The dumeril's CAN reach over 8' and the Regius(Ball Pythons) over six. I have personally seen an import female at 6'11"!!! Yeah I was surprised too. That was years ago when they shipped gravid females. I'll try to dig through my photos. Anyway, I would have to agree that the comparison was incorrect. Only because if I were asked the same question I would consider the size which the general public was most familiar with.(Balls-3-4')(Dum's-4-5') Best protection is do the research before the show then know what you are looking for. Either way the Dum will make a good animal. Regards Ray Herpetological Breeding Research
 
I know we made a mistake with an impulse buy but Im not at all upset about her.Shes a doll baby.Very friendly and healthy.If he would have told us the truth I would have purchased her anyway.I just cant believe people will risk an animals well being over a few dollars.We saw a lady from Regal Reptiles trying to tell a guy buying his daughters first reptile that bearded dragons are 10 inches at full grown.Such a little lie,but now that animal will probably never reach full growth because of being in a home entirely too small.She did not mention UV or any other important info.To the gentleman who has the 8 footers,how fast did yours grow?What age are they?Thanks guys!!!!!
 
In regards to the size issue.... The dumeril's CAN reach over 8' and the Regius(Ball Pythons) over six. I have personally seen an import female at 6'11"!!! Yeah I was surprised too. That was years ago when they shipped gravid females. I'll try to dig through my photos. Anyway, I would have to agree that the comparison was incorrect. Only because if I were asked the same question I would consider the size which the general public was most familiar with.(Balls-3-4')(Dum's-4-5')

Well said but... As you said yourself, the public is most familiar with the middle and lower end of the size scale and those really larger animals are rare... most vendors will speak about average sizes rather than true maximums, they aren't lying when they do this...

A 3-4 foot (healthy) ball will weigh around the same amount or even a bit more than a 4-5 foot Dumerils (Dums are pretty thick too once they attain a decent length but not BP proportions) and the animals could be considered to need about the same amount of space... length isn't the only housing consideration, girth does matter.

I think my defense of the dealer may be based on two things...

First, I don't see a foot or so (average) as being all that much bigger, nor do I see a five foot snake as being any more dangerous or difficult to keep than a four foot snake (given similar builds and discounting venomous species of course)...

But secondly, I hate the idea of an uneducated consumer. The thought of someone willing to buy an animal right then and there when they need to ask questions like "How big does it get?" or "What does it eat?" and "How warm should it be?" makes me a bit irate. If you don't already know what the care for the animal is... the basic biological facts, I'm not talking hard stuff here but... Size?! Come on! Go buy another animal and get the one you liked but didn't know about after you have some knowledge! "They" say there are no stupid questions... that's not true of course. "They" also say that asking questions is the only way to learn... But damnit, learn before you get the animal and I don't mean five minutes before hand. What sort of care is an animal going to get when it's new owners couldn't even reccognize the species if it was unlabeled before they bought it? I lose compassion for people who are fed a line (And this wasn't THAT big of a stretch for a casual conversation) when they are in a position where they should have known better to start.

We saw a lady from Regal Reptiles trying to tell a guy buying his daughters first reptile that bearded dragons are 10 inches at full grown.

So while you were eavesdropping, did you happen to overhear if she was speaking about total length or the more accurate and useful snout to vent length?

Incidentally, was Shawn there? I know Regal caught some flak a couple years ago because some of the employees who had been sent to do a show (Without Shawn) decided to add a load of really unpleasant looking Phelsuma to the regal table, but that was the only bad thing I've heard and it was cleared up quickly.

What you have essentially done here is turned a post about an unnamed breeder into a post about how Regal Reptiles lies to customers (Hey... named people = BOI)... I've been a customer of Shawns for years now and have never once been lied to... of course, I also don't need to ask questions that I really should already know the answer to on my own and I don't eavesdrop and take conversation out of context, so maybe I just haven't placed myself in the right position to be lied to.
 
We saw a lady from Regal Reptiles trying to tell a guy buying his daughters first reptile that bearded dragons are 10 inches at full grown.

Oh yeah... One more thing... While you were eavesdropping, did you happen to catch which species of bearded dragon they were discussing?

I ask specifically if you overheard because frankly I wouldn't trust you to know a vitticeps from a brevis at this point based on your apparantly limited experience and knowledge, but I bet you'd get indignant and accuse someone of lying out of naevity.
 
I aadmit I made an impulse buy.Ive admitted my mistake.I own many reptiles as do most people on her and I am mainly a person who keeps monitors,this is my second snake.I asked all the questions I did not think I could answer on my own after a few searches.Your right the size isnt a big difference but the fact that he lied is a big deal.I already said I would have taken her even if I would have known that but instead he said what he thought I wanted to hear to make $100 bucks.

As far as Regal is concerned I have bought from them also and they have beautiful,healthy animals.I am very pleased with the animals I picked up from them at the January show and yes I was well informed.But yesterday a man was not.I was not eavesdropping I was involoved in the conversation as I was looking to possibly purchase the beardie and I was holding it at the moment when the gentleman walked up and begun questioning about the animal.I listened to her blatantly lie,sayign the dragon I was holding was just about full grown,he was about 10 inches tail included.I informed the man we have dragons at well over 18 or 20 inches. Or how about a gentleman telling a man that an argus monitor is 2 foot at full grown?That was at the last show.


Please dont insult me.I guess Im the only person to make an impulse buy.I saw her,I liked her.I bought all new lighting and cage decor came home and began building a tank.I have viewed care sheet after care sheet and have been reading info all day.I am not lividly mad about this,I just cant believe what people will do to make money.
 
It was a vitticeps,as in the inland bearded dragon.Have you ever considered the fact that even though I may not be an expert as far as snakes are concerned that I do keep many other reptiles.I house 7 bearded dragons,2 dumerils monitors, 2 blackthroats,crested geckos and a beautiful ball python.I have kept blue tongue skinks,uromastyx,leopard geckos,argentine tegus,and panther chameleons.I am not an idiot but I am also not so naive as to think I know everything.We saw this snake and discussed bringing it home,after much reassurance from the seller we decided she was right for us.The size is not what matters,what matters is how far will these people go to make a sale?Selling feeders as non feeders?Selling parasite infested animals as captive bred?I do not at all mean this in reference to Regal as I said I have purchased from them but unfortunately they sent someone to a show that either did not kow what she was talking about(doubtful as we discussed timors with her for some time) or she was just looking to close the deal.They also had Rankins at the show but when the gentleman was reluctant to specd $120.00 she kicked in that the inlands only reach 10 inches or so in length.Now if you think its okay to take advantage of a person because they are naive and impulse buying that is perfectly fine.But you are also risking the life of the animal you are selling and that is very unacceptable to me.
 
While I certainly agree that impulse buying should be avoided, I realize that an impulse sometimes takes over. If this is at a herp show, and you still have time left before the doors close, then you can change it to an educated buy on impulse. In such as case I strongly repeat my earlier recommendations about walking around to herp society tables and dealers and asking questions about the type you want to buy.

I have to disagree somewhat with Seamus on this one, when he says:

But secondly, I hate the idea of an uneducated consumer. The thought of someone willing to buy an animal right then and there when they need to ask questions like "How big does it get?" or "What does it eat?" and "How warm should it be?" makes me a bit irate. If you don't already know what the care for the animal is... the basic biological facts, I'm not talking hard stuff here but... Size?! Come on! Go buy another animal and get the one you liked but didn't know about after you have some knowledge!

If you are new to herps, I strongly recommend checking on acceptable herps first, BEFORE GOING TO BUY ONE. First time herp purchases, by the newbie, on an impulse, are the worst type of purchase. That said about newbies, let’s move onto more experienced herpers. An impulse buy by a more experienced herper, on the other hand, is not anywhere near so bad. I say this because the experienced herper may see something that has caught his/her eye and fired up the old impulse engines really hot. What does the experienced herper do? As in your case - I imagine that a responsible experienced herper would checkout care sheets if available, and ask a lot of questions. One of my main points, from my earlier post, is don't ask just the guy from whom you think you will be buying. Shop around, and ask the same questions at each table you stop at where these animals are also being sold. Thus you will maybe find out that someone is lying, or that happily everyone has the same story. If everyone has the same care facts, buy from anyone of them, in other words go with that first impulse and buy the snake of your dreams from Seller # 1. BUT if the seller, from whom you are contemplating a purchase, says something markedly different from all the others - you have to put on the brakes. That is when you need to pull your head out of the methane gas chamber (that is where the impulse engines get their energy since they are primarily little more than brain farts) and think logically. Now ask yourself: If all the others said it grows to 8 feet why would this guy say 5 feet? (Or whatever it was.) If the care sheets say 8 feet - why did the guy say 5 feet? Maybe he does not know, maybe he is lying, or maybe his own never grew larger than that and he is speaking from personal experience (not necessarily lying).

The thing is, you could have and should have educated yourself enough at least during the show before buying it, and that means from more than just the one dealer. As opposed to Seamus, I see nothing wrong with an experienced herper doing this. I understand that sometimes we all act on impulse. I just try to keep it from being the full fledged ‘Scotty we need full impulse power NOW’ kind of impulse because the next thing you know you are in Warp Drive or even worse you Star Burst and everything goes to hell. Sure it would be smarter as Seamus says to do your homework at home before getting to the show. However, if on impulse, then at least check it out as thoroughly as possible before buying - don't throw all your trust into the guy from whom you are buying. When you do that the impulse has won out and everything can wind up smelling like one of those engines exploded after being fueled by Lima Beans.

Now don't get me wrong. I am not trying to say you were wrong and the seller was right in this particular case. I think both of you were wrong but for different reasons. Your being wrong can, in my mind, be excused at least somewhat. You were not wronging anyone, and as you are pretty experienced with snakes I am guessing that your impulse buy will not jeopardize the snake's health as might an impulse purchase by a newbie. Your intentions were good. As for the other guy - he may have purposefully done a wrong - and then again maybe not. Of course, if this guy lied to you, there is, in my opinion, no excusing such a thing and he was dead wrong. Confront him next time you are at a show where he has a table – don’t get into a fight – but question him about why he told you what he told you. Also remember, sellers often lie or sugar coat what they say - there is a bit of used car salesperson in us all - I guess. No excuse for it, it is not a good thing, but it is done, and it is successful more often when it involves an uneducated or under-educated consumer. In light of that, the Romans (back in ancient times) said it all in two words: "Caveat Emptor".

In English that is: Buyer Beware.
 
You may be correct on it not stunting its growth,but could you imagine any beardie being happy in a 10 gallon tank?Or even a 20?
 
Definitely not a full grown in a 10. A 20 would still be a little small to my reckoning, but something slightly larger would be doable if the animal got plenty of time outside the tank.

To stay on topic, at the last Atlanta show, a guy at one table told me that a dragon, which was about 14 in., was breedable and in great shape. The dragon was inactive, inattentive, and the hips were clearly visible. I expect to be lied to at shows, but Glenn pretty much summed up the best at-the-show approach, so I won't repeat it.
 
I think Seamus misunderstood my intentions.I am not ragging on Regal or even specifically the gentleman who sold me the boa.Like I said I agree I should not have impulse bought and that it is just as much my fault as his.I was simply asking opinions on what people think of the vendors who will go and lie to make a quick buck.I dont think its a good thing for our hobby.In January at White Plains I watched a vendor(with very unhealthy animals) instruct a 16 or 17 year old boy that housing a baby nile monitor and an iguana together would be no major deal.My situation was minor and I should have known better.But what about serious situations and people who dont know better.That are looking for a good first reptile and take advice form teh "experts" behind the counter?
 
There are (at least) two things that will always be around, unscrupulous people, and ignorant people. Really, the only thing you can do is make sure that you are neither one of those. Do your best to make sure that the people you know are neither one of those.
 
Unfortunately, many reptile shows are like poker games. If, when you look around the room, you can't spot the sucker in the game . . . it's you.

As was earlier said, "Caveat Emptor" ought to be the motto for every purchaser from an unknown table at a herp show!
 
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