Why not to buy "Captive Bred" GTP's from LLL Reptile

[cyberfrog]

Oh, maybe your point was that since they are a "SUPPLY" company they are not responsible for misrepresenting "ANIMALS". If they sold me a thermostat that was misrepresented, that would be bad, but since it is just a lowly "ANIMAL" and not what their name describes it makes it ok? Am I close?

 

[ravensgait]

Adam sorry about you animal.
Seeing as you had this Chondro for 8 months I could ask all kinds of questions of you IE Was this your first chondro, did you try to get help from someone with a lot of experience,how you kept it such as temps and humidity, did you handle it often. ETC ETC. but seeing as you haven't answered other question asked of you and from your previous comments it seems that you blame who you got the animal from and nothing else for it's loss.

Sometimes there is just no real reason for animals to die they just do, without a necropsy you'll never know why it died and if it was your fault or if there was just something wrong with it from the get go. Baby Chondros can be tough to get going and buying one from a broker is fine if you have some experience and even if you don't many times you can get them going other times well it doesn't work out.

I've never done business with LLL but if I bought an animal from them and was having trouble with it I'd contact them for help and advice, did you contact them when you first realized there was a problem? if they couldn't help me I'd contact others who could help me or take my questions to the many forums that specialize in Chondros. Did you ask for help from any of the Experienced breeders and keepers or ask on these forums? Did you consult an experienced vet?If you can't answer these questions with yes I did all that then how can blame the person you bought the animal from?

Sure your upset you spent good money for an animal you really wanted and it died but the thing is that now days there is all kinds of help to be found. When I first got into Emeralds years ago I bought 4 WC animals kept them all together and after the first month thought wow these are not as hard to keep as people always said they were. Three months later one came down with an RI and you guessed it they all soon had it. After Vet trips and treatment and of course more money invested in the end I had two WC Emeralds and a lot more knowledge of what it takes to get a touchy animal going. I didn't go back to the guy I bought them from and complain as I should have know what I was getting into.

As they say in most cases you get what you paid for you saw a deal on a Chondro and went for it. But I would think that even if you had bought it from a breeder, after 8 months I doubt they'd be real willing to take the blame for your loss and even people who buy from breeders lose animals.

Again sorry for your loss. Randy

 

[cyberfrog]

Randy, did you read the thread? The first post was in the beginning of Jan. so it was 3 months, not 8. Secondly I answered most of the questions you asked previously. I had it set up per Greg Maxwells neonate enclosure design. I had it for a few weeks, it ate. I had it for a few more weeks and it died. It wasn't a long term thing. I didn't waste the money on a vet because I knew when I heard they were farmed imports I was screwed already. Lastly, I never set this up as a "boo-hoo, poor me" thread. The guy at the table told be they were CBB and they were not, whole point of the thread. Misrepresentation, period.

 

[ravensgait]

Did you ask for help? Did you contact LLL when you realized you had a problem? How do you know they were not CBB???? (farm bred is still bred in captivity) did they tell you they were bred in the US? or did you just not ask who bred them? still haven't answered these.

Like I said sorry for your loss but without answering some questions like How Do You Know It wasn't CB and also without answers to the other questions I and others asked how do you know it was their fault that it died? Did you take it to a vet, ask for help?????? Sorry but without answers to these question I don't see how you can blame anyone. And like I said in my last post if you can't answer those questions as yes I did all that, how can you blame the person who sold you the animal?

Adam just trying to be fair here you've made a thread blaming LLL for your loss but don't back up your claim. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who would like to know if there is something to blame them for? So far I don't see it as you don't answer the questions that will give the answers needed to decide that. Randy

 

[PaulSage]

Was my thread titled "Why not to buy Ball Pythons from LLL Reptile"?? I didn't think so, if you don't mind can you tell me where I might find the point to your story?
Adam

Brian was merely posting his experience with the company. I don't think the hostility was appropriate, because it's important to hear the good and the bad about any company listed on the BOI.

MY experience with LLL has been pretty good. I used to get quite a few different herps from them, and to the best of my knowledge the animals I received were exactly as they had represented them. There were however, a few times that I felt their packaging jobs left a lot to be desired, although I never lost an animal because of it. Of the animals I received from them, they were all in good health and in acceptable shipping condition. However, I did order a "proven breeder" corn snake from them that hasn't laid eggs since I got her two years ago, and is the most stubborn feeder I own.

 

[cyberfrog]

The guy at the LL table told me they were CB and NOT Imports. I asked before I bought. I then find out after the fact from the good people here on this BOI that LLL's GTP's are indeed farmed imports. That has been my entire point the entire time. LLL Reptile blatantly misrepresented the animal, period. I didn't blame them for the animal dying, I didn't try to gain sympathy by bashing them at all. Animals was said to be one thing when it is another. This thread was dead 6 months ago, I have no idea why it's even back. lol

 

[Brian030]

My point

The point of my message is this:

1) LLL Reptile SUPPLY is in the business of MOVING animals, and quickly.

2) LLL Reptile SUPPLY makes absolutely NO QUALMS about the nature of their business, and doesn't misrepresent it.

3) LLL Reptile SUPPLY doesn't regularly label animals as CB or CBB. When one sees one of these labels, it stands out. If I saw a CBB label there, I'd probably believe it, because it isn't a claim that they often make. Ball pythons are labeled "Ball Pythons $39.99", and Colombian boas are labeled "Colombian boas $79.99". It's straightforward enough that I have a hard time seeing how anyone could feel misled by the company. I feel I get MORE than was advertised, more often than I feel let down. I wasn't there when you bought your chondro. I don't know who you spoke with, or what they told you...but one of their employees has told me that they get many animals farmed. I would think that a company that habitually misrepresents animals as CBB wouldn't be upfront about that with me.

4) You're bashing the company, not the snake. Chondros, lizards, tegus, ball pythons...it doesn't matter. Their prices are low, the animals are appropriately priced for the level of care they receive. Caveat emptor! LLL Reptile SUPPLY does NOT provide an express OR an implied warranty on any of their animals. The risk of quality lies with the buyer. End of story.

5) I've lost an animal I bought from LLL Reptile SUPPLY. It wasn't their fault. Nor was it mine. It was just bad luck.

6) I've bought 3 snakes from LLL Reptile SUPPLY that have done VERY well. I feel that I would've paid 4 or 5 times as much (AT LEAST) for the very same animals, had I bought them from someone else. Were I less capable of providing the care necessary to bring them to the condition I wanted them in, I might have wound up being disappointed. I wouldn't recommend the store to a "newbie," at least not for animals. But I HAVE recommended the store to new BREEDERS, who needed basic SUPPLIES.

Adam, I don't know you, and I have nothing against you. I certainly can relate to the disappointment in losing an animal you were really excited to get. I wish you nothing but the best, and I hope that you will chalk up this ordeal to experience. LLL is one of my favorite vendors, for very specific reasons. This DOES NOT mean they should be one of YOUR favorite vendors.

That's the point of my post. You may not see a connection, but I do. Sorry we disagree about that. I guess, if I'm that far off base, WEBSLAVE will be letting me know.

Good luck with your chondros,
Brian G. Engleman

 

[cyberfrog]

The point of my message is this:

1) LLL Reptile SUPPLY is in the business of MOVING animals, and quickly.

Agreed.

2) LLL Reptile SUPPLY makes absolutely NO QUALMS about the nature of their business, and doesn't misrepresent it.

Agreed.

3) LLL Reptile SUPPLY doesn't regularly label animals as CB or CBB. When one sees one of these labels, it stands out. If I saw a CBB label there, I'd probably believe it, because it isn't a claim that they often make. Ball pythons are labeled "Ball Pythons $39.99", and Colombian boas are labeled "Colombian boas $79.99". It's straightforward enough that I have a hard time seeing how anyone could feel misled by the company. I feel I get MORE than was advertised, more often than I feel let down. I wasn't there when you bought your chondro. I don't know who you spoke with, or what they told you...but one of their employees has told me that they get many animals farmed. I would think that a company that habitually misrepresents animals as CBB wouldn't be upfront about that with me.

If I remember your thread right, you dealt with them at a retail location, correct? I dealt with them at the MARS show and the guy on the other side of the table told me there were CB and not imports.

4) You're bashing the company, not the snake. Chondros, lizards, tegus, ball pythons...it doesn't matter. Their prices are low, the animals are appropriately priced for the level of care they receive. Caveat emptor! LLL Reptile SUPPLY does NOT provide an express OR an implied warranty on any of their animals. The risk of quality lies with the buyer. End of story.

Exactly, I have no problem with the quality of the snake as a farmed import, I do have a problem with the company as they sold it to me as otherwise.

5) I've lost an animal I bought from LLL Reptile SUPPLY. It wasn't their fault. Nor was it mine. It was just bad luck.

As was mine, however misrepresentation still applies.

6) I've bought 3 snakes from LLL Reptile SUPPLY that have done VERY well. I feel that I would've paid 4 or 5 times as much (AT LEAST) for the very same animals, had I bought them from someone else. Were I less capable of providing the care necessary to bring them to the condition I wanted them in, I might have wound up being disappointed. I wouldn't recommend the store to a "newbie," at least not for animals. But I HAVE recommended the store to new BREEDERS, who needed basic SUPPLIES.

To the point this started I hadn't heard anything bad about them. Had he told me at thetable it was a farmed import, I would have moved along. I too have taken animals rescued/abandoned and/or uncared for/mistreated, some live, some don't.

Adam, I don't know you, and I have nothing against you. I certainly can relate to the disappointment in losing an animal you were really excited to get. I wish you nothing but the best, and I hope that you will chalk up this ordeal to experience. LLL is one of my favorite vendors, for very specific reasons. This DOES NOT mean they should be one of YOUR favorite vendors.

I don't know you either, nor do I hate you or even dislike you I did chalk it up to experience, I just wanted to let everyone know that LLL will misrepresent an animal.

That's the point of my post. You may not see a connection, but I do. Sorry we disagree about that. I guess, if I'm that far off base, WEBSLAVE will be letting me know.

Fair enough, I just didn't get the point then of your WC BP's living when my misrepresented GTP died, sorry dude!

Good luck with your chondros,
Brian G. Engleman

That's it

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

You're bashing the company, not the snake. Chondros, lizards, tegus, ball pythons...it doesn't matter. Their prices are low, the animals are appropriately priced for the level of care they receive. Caveat emptor! LLL Reptile SUPPLY does NOT provide an express OR an implied warranty on any of their animals. The risk of quality lies with the buyer. End of story.

So what you are saying is that it is allright to sell crap as long as you don't charge a lot for it?

Brian, if you don't see that your statements above typify what is wrong with the herp industry, then I sure as hell don't think you ever will.

 

[Brian030]

last things

"If I remember your thread right, you dealt with them at a retail location, correct?"

Yes, this is correct. So, yes, their "show-face" and their "store-face" may be very different, for all I know.

And again, I wasn't there when you bought your snake, don't know who you spoke with, and am in no position to say whether or not that person told you it was CBB. I'll take your word for it. I don't doubt that someone may have misrepresented the animal, but I don't think it's something that LLL encourages or perpetuates.

I just wonder if your gripe is more suited to the individual, rather than the company. Have you called them to inform them that someone told you this about the GTP? Again, I don't know the whole story...only, from my own experience, that LLL doesn't SEEM to make a HABIT out of misrepresenting animals.

Thanks for your time in writing a well-thought-out, and respectful, response. These days, we can't take that for granted!

Brian G. Engleman

 

[Brian030]

John,

So what you are saying is that it is allright to sell crap as long as you don't charge a lot for it?

Brian, if you don't see that your statements above typify what is wrong with the herp industry, then I sure as hell don't think you ever will.

Your tone is hostile.

That is NOT what I was saying, and I think that's quite clear. Please don't try to turn it into a "shocking sound byte."

I'm sure you and I could go round and round about what's wrong with the herp industry. Personally, I think the problem with the herp industry is a lack of professionalism, common courtesy, and collegiality.

In any other "industry," there'd be a lot of lawsuits over the things herp businesspeople say about each other!

Another problem I have with the "herp industry" is that so many of us think there's only ONE industry. LLL is the perfect example. They operate a very different type of business than you do, but you try to convince people to hold LLL to a standard that you expect from YOUR business. In my personal opinion, this leads to unrealistic expectations on a "great price."

One thing's for sure: LLL REPTILE SUPPLY HAS NEVER TRIED TO PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH!

Good day,

Brian G. Engleman

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Your tone is hostile.

Yes Brian, I guess it is. Statements like the one you make tend to bring that out in those of us who care about the animals we sell

That is NOT what I was saying, and I think that's quite clear. Please don't try to turn it into a "shocking sound byte."
One thing's for sure: LLL REPTILE SUPPLY HAS NEVER TRIED TO PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH!
Brian G. Engleman

Interesting Brian...

You're bashing the company, not the snake. Chondros, lizards, tegus, ball pythons...it doesn't matter. Their prices are low, the animals are appropriately priced for the level of care they receive. Caveat emptor! LLL Reptile SUPPLY does NOT provide an express OR an implied warranty on any of their animals. The risk of quality lies with the buyer. End of story.

Doesn't really look like anyone put words in your mouth Brian. I just caught the crap and reprinted it after you spewed it out.

Your statements flagrantly illustrate the "throw away" mentality and attitude on inexpensive animals. The real prize winner is your "they are priced according to the level of care that they receive". Your posts seem to indicate a level of intelligence that would see the basic wrongness of that statement.

Possibly I am giving you more credit than I should.

Ah well....i am off to administer a proper "level of care" to my animals.

 

[reptilebreeder]

So what you are saying is that it is allright to sell crap as long as you don't charge a lot for it?

Brian, if you don't see that your statements above typify what is wrong with the herp industry, then I sure as hell don't think you ever will.

I don't think selling WC/farmed imports, necessarily=selling crap. Some people still buy them, for whatever reasons. New blood, "the challenge", low price, whatever. The price is lower because there is not as much "value added service", a bulk or direct importer's prices would be even lower, because they have even less. Private breeder's like all of us, generally get higher prices, because of the extra value added service, the captive care, breeding, personalized care of offspring, etc.
Anyway, I don't think the poster was advocating selling of crap, just that they are honest about what it is they sell, and if you buy WC/imports, be aware that the price is lower for a reason. I myself don't buy or keep WC, but to each his own. JMHO

 

[Jim O]

Your statements flagrantly illustrate the "throw away" mentality and attitude on inexpensive animals.

Not that I want to throw gasoline on this smolderer, but so does the following:

It wasn't a long term thing. I didn't waste the money on a vet because I knew when I heard they were farmed imports I was screwed already.

I would argue that when you take on an animal you have a responsibility to that animal, farmed import or CBB morph from a famous breeder.

For the record, LLL buys a lot of their imported chondros, if not all of them, from Kamuran Tepedelen (Bushmaster) who produces many quality animals and supplies a lot of chondros to the US market. What the brokers do with them after that is, of course, highly variable.

 

[reptilebreeder]

Not that I want to throw gasoline on this smolderer, Originally Posted by cyberfrog
It wasn't a long term thing. I didn't waste the money on a vet because I knew when I heard they were farmed imports I was screwed already.

I would argue that when you take on an animal you have a responsibility to that animal, farmed import or CBB morph from a famous breeder.

Very good point. Something I think that has been overlooked in this thread. Even considering the OP was lied to, the problem could have been something as "simple" as a parasite/stress overload. Something that can be treated relatively easy. Granted you may have been screwed, because it was a farmed import (and theoretically, wouldn't have to worry about something like parasites with a CCB), it still might be alive today, had it been taken to a vet.

 

[Brian030]

John, you've crossed a line

Yes Brian, I guess it is. Statements like the one you make tend to bring that out in those of us who care about the animals we sell



Interesting Brian...



Doesn't really look like anyone put words in your mouth Brian. I just caught the crap and reprinted it after you spewed it out.

Your statements flagrantly illustrate the "throw away" mentality and attitude on inexpensive animals. The real prize winner is your "they are priced according to the level of care that they receive". Your posts seem to indicate a level of intelligence that would see the basic wrongness of that statement.

Possibly I am giving you more credit than I should.

Ah well....i am off to administer a proper "level of care" to my animals.

You're just the king of suggestions, aren't you? How passive-aggressive of you. Did you just accuse me of not caring about MY animals? That's crazy, my breeders still have NAMES, which should say a bit about my level of care...they aren't numbers. This is to say nothing of the "big guys", for whom names just can't apply. But, I get the feeling that you WOULD put that up as an example of what's wrong with those breeders. Silly and judgmental!

You like to judge EVERYTHING it seems. My words are "crap." You say it as fact, and I'm sure you don't see the difference. You say I "flagrantly illustrate the 'throw-away' (changed to be grammatically correct) mentality and attitude of inexpensive animals." While no inexpensive animals have ever expressed this opinion to me, I say that you can't be further from the truth! My animals receive great care, as far as I'm concerned, and believe it would live up to that provided by ANYONE else. You talk about "proper care" for animals, which is a very subjective term. What you consider to be "proper" would probably be considered "above and beyond" to someone else, especially a large animal reseller. I knew the animals I got from LLL were much better off, upon arriving at my house...but I never considered their housing and care beforehand to be inadequate. It just didn't live up to MY standards. I think that's the difference between you and I. While we both have very strong opinions, I don't consider it my job to FORCE the world to see it my way. One thing that will never change is diversity of opinions.

Your sound byte is still WAY OFF, and you're so busy talking about what I "don't get," that I don't think YOU get it! LLL Reptile SUPPLY doesn't breed, incubate, hatch, or otherwise go out of their way for animals. They buy them, and they sell them. The price they charge is appropriate for their position as a RESELLER, as opposed to being a BREEDER, like yourself. They can recognize a SPECIES, but not necessarily an individual animal from their collection. Rather than JUDGING them for this, I understand the nature of their business. They provide ADEQUATE care for their animals, as opposed to the OUTSTANDING care that some of us pride ourselves on giving our animals.

I've seen some of your snakes posted on that other AWFUL website, that none of us can seem to live without! They are beautiful. At some point in the past, I'm sure I've hoped you would someday offer bp's because you seemed like an honest guy to do business with and that your snakes (which ARE priced at a premium) are of the HIGHEST quality. Your personality leaves a great deal to be desired, however. This, alone, would be enough to scare this customer away!

Possibly, you have given yourself WAY more credit than you deserve. You have nice snakes, and you seem to do well with them, but this doesn't qualify you to don a robe and sit on the bench with a gavel over the rest of us. In fact, it's only a matter of time before that comes back to bite you.

Brian G. Engleman

 

[Ophis]

For what its worth, this is a LLL Chondro I have had for 9 months now. Its about a year and a half old now. His name is Adonis, AKA "Death Watch" since he is from LLL, lives in an aquarium.....yada, yada, yada.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

I don't think selling WC/farmed imports, necessarily=selling crap. Some people still buy them, for whatever reasons. New blood, "the challenge", low price, whatever. The price is lower because there is not as much "value added service", a bulk or direct importer's prices would be even lower, because they have even less. Private breeder's like all of us, generally get higher prices, because of the extra value added service, the captive care, breeding, personalized care of offspring, etc.
Anyway, I don't think the poster was advocating selling of crap, just that they are honest about what it is they sell, and if you buy WC/imports, be aware that the price is lower for a reason. I myself don't buy or keep WC, but to each his own. JMHO

John

I agree completely with your statements. My issue was with Brian's statement. I have nothing at all against imports and WC animals. All of our current breeding stock in all species stems from one or the other. I have acclimated, quarantined and then carefully added several WC animals into certain breeding colonies over the years. My issue is with the sale of WC imported animals that have not been acclimated to the general pet buying public. This is obviously a far more severe problem at shows than at most retail establishments but it occurs there as well to some degree. If a dealer is up front about what he is selling it becomes a less prevalent problem but I cannot count the number of 10 and 12 year old kids i have seen walking out of shows with fresh imported Uros, Ball Pythons and Boas. We all know that those animals are generally not long for this world. Knowlegable breeders are taking a calculated risk. The pet buying public just sees a good price.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

You're just the king of suggestions, aren't you? How passive-aggressive of you. Did you just accuse me of not caring about MY animals? That's crazy, my breeders still have NAMES, which should say a bit about my level of care...they aren't numbers. This is to say nothing of the "big guys", for whom names just can't apply. But, I get the feeling that you WOULD put that up as an example of what's wrong with those breeders. Silly and judgmental!

You like to judge EVERYTHING it seems. My words are "crap." You say it as fact, and I'm sure you don't see the difference. You say I "flagrantly illustrate the 'throw-away' (changed to be grammatically correct) mentality and attitude of inexpensive animals." While no inexpensive animals have ever expressed this opinion to me, I say that you can't be further from the truth! My animals receive great care, as far as I'm concerned, and believe it would live up to that provided by ANYONE else. You talk about "proper care" for animals, which is a very subjective term. What you consider to be "proper" would probably be considered "above and beyond" to someone else, especially a large animal reseller. I knew the animals I got from LLL were much better off, upon arriving at my house...but I never considered their housing and care beforehand to be inadequate. It just didn't live up to MY standards. I think that's the difference between you and I. While we both have very strong opinions, I don't consider it my job to FORCE the world to see it my way. One thing that will never change is diversity of opinions.

Your sound byte is still WAY OFF, and you're so busy talking about what I "don't get," that I don't think YOU get it! LLL Reptile SUPPLY doesn't breed, incubate, hatch, or otherwise go out of their way for animals. They buy them, and they sell them. The price they charge is appropriate for their position as a RESELLER, as opposed to being a BREEDER, like yourself. They can recognize a SPECIES, but not necessarily an individual animal from their collection. Rather than JUDGING them for this, I understand the nature of their business. They provide ADEQUATE care for their animals, as opposed to the OUTSTANDING care that some of us pride ourselves on giving our animals.

I've seen some of your snakes posted on that other AWFUL website, that none of us can seem to live without! They are beautiful. At some point in the past, I'm sure I've hoped you would someday offer bp's because you seemed like an honest guy to do business with and that your snakes (which ARE priced at a premium) are of the HIGHEST quality. Your personality leaves a great deal to be desired, however. This, alone, would be enough to scare this customer away!

Possibly, you have given yourself WAY more credit than you deserve. You have nice snakes, and you seem to do well with them, but this doesn't qualify you to don a robe and sit on the bench with a gavel over the rest of us. In fact, it's only a matter of time before that comes back to bite you.

Brian G. Engleman

To begin with Brian, I must say that you express yourself well but whether you realize it or not, your position has rather quickly evolved since your original post.

Their prices are low, the animals are appropriately priced for the level of care they receive. Caveat emptor! LLL Reptile SUPPLY does NOT provide an express OR an implied warranty on any of their animals. The risk of quality lies with the buyer. End of story.

LLL Reptile SUPPLY doesn't breed, incubate, hatch, or otherwise go out of their way for animals. They buy them, and they sell them. The price they charge is appropriate for their position as a RESELLER, as opposed to being a BREEDER, like yourself. They can recognize a SPECIES, but not necessarily an individual animal from their collection. Rather than JUDGING them for this, I understand the nature of their business. They provide ADEQUATE care for their animals, as opposed to the OUTSTANDING care that some of us pride ourselves on giving our animals.

My impression is that you are equating these two statements as conveying the same point. Read them Brian. They are as different as night and day.The reason I say this is, while I vehemently disagree with the first, I grudgingly agree with most of the second. Surely you can see the difference. The first statement comes off as a callous disregard for both the animals and the potential buyer. You can use statements like "sound bytes" all you like but they are your own words. Caveat Emptor indeed!

However, dealing with large numbers of animals never excuses any dealer from sending out sub par animals to the retail buyer.

This statement bears a bit of scrutiny as well

LLL Reptile SUPPLY does NOT provide an express OR an implied warranty on any of their animals. The risk of quality lies with the buyer. End of story

You are correct. They do not warranty their animals at all. Don't you find that strange Brian? Similar types of dealers offer excellent warranties on all their animals, imports and captive bred alike. Ben Siegel's warranty is one of the best in the business. Why do you think that they have no express or implied warranty? Could it be that having such a warranty would be rather costly given the level of care we are discussing?

Finally Brian, I did not accuse you of any lack of care for your animals. For all I know you have the best husbandry skills out there. All I pointed out was that your original statement seemed to expressly convey that a diminished level of care was acceptable if the selling price was low enough. If what you stated in your last post was what you were trying to get across then we could have saved a fair amount of typing if you had worded your original post that way.

 

[ravensgait]

John if you want to discuss what people are implying in their post you have more than once implied in this thread that LLL doesn't take care of its animals. Is this something you know for a fact or is it just something you are implying just to imply something? See it's not a good idea to try to read into what someone wrote... It's funny how you seem to think Brian was saying one thing when I had no problem understanding what his points were, must be that implying thing again.

I sometimes wonder if people come here after a bad day looking for someone to use to blow off steam. Randy