Witblits dragons - true patternless beardies

[nick_c]

I have come across several great points in this thread from the predominant participating members. I myself feel that the many different morphs are a great attribute to the hobby. They give "true" collectors/breeders diversity. They must be out-crossed like any other group of animals no matter what the pattern or color. Strength in this case comes in numbers. And as far as price, i.e. "higher end" dragons, is concerned we must have a larger perspective. Just because the average person uses 87 octane doesn't mean we all must. If I am living within my means and my taste calls for extremely expensive breathe-taking dragon, guess what, I'm going to get it lol. Everyone has their own tastes and preferences. I work with animals from many of the "top breeders" and they are all as "healthy as horses". One of which is a young 10 month old Hypo Italian Leather 100% Het Translucent. His weight exceeds 375g(on empty) and measures right at 19". I collect dragons from one side of the spectrum to the other. And as documented by yours truly, they are equally healthy. Now each have different eating patterns/prey preferences and grow at their own rates. But never the less continue to steadily grow no matter what the color of there scales or eyes.

Now as far as the "natural selection" issue goes, Brian is correct. But not because they are "genetically" weak necessarily. They would fall closely to the albinos of other species. Natural Selection would tell us they would simply be the first to go due to poor camouflage. A bright red/orange/yellow dragon would have much less a chance than a "normal" beardie in the wilderness. But again, this isn't the wild lol. Sorry for rambling. I don't say much ordinarily so when I do I guess I REALLY do, lol.

 

[dragonluver83]

yes actually if you look at the background health wise of hypos there are tons of problems with them as well though they are so spread out now that its not such a problem though there are still ones that pop up with severe genetic issues.

But yes hypos are in the same list as trans and leathers. just not as bad now because of how spread out they are. I own a hypo but he is very healthy and good sized. And i wouldnt reproduce him if he wasnt of good size. The norm for dragons has gotten rediculous to think that its ok to reproduce a 16 inch dragon is in my opinion wrong. anyway im getting off on a tangent im out.

Dude your animal doesnt have to be the size of a german giant to breed the thing or to reproduce healthy animals. You prefer a bigger bearded dragons. Thats just what you like. And after a couple of years the witblits line will be crossed out enough to do more things with it. Its like any exotic morph it needs time.
So you have an exotic morph but this whole time you have been talking about how bad and unhealthy they are? I did note that he was a big hypo. but that really doesnt mean he's a "healthy dragon" because he's big. Anyway super bowl beer has makin me quite tired so i am out for the night an i will talk to you gentlemen later!

 

[witblits]

Ok guys let me make a few statements and ask a few questions then maybe this would get you thinking...
Firstly it takes a real person to apologise once he knows he over reacted. Apology accepted mm dragons.

Ok first the shipping fee. Yes it MAY cost 1200$. If you want a dragon now and only one and you want me to ship it solo then it might cost up to 2000, depending on where to etc. But most of the time I will ship two or three buyers' dragons then it works out much less. The fee then gets split between them. The fact is most guys who buy these dragons aren't realy phased by 'only' a 1000$.

Then a statement about the translucents and so called 'weak witblits'. Witblits dragons are not inbred! As I have said we have selected for white dragons (also for smaller dragons, I will discuss later). We started of with a fairly light female. Paired her to the whitest male we could find. Remember there are no leucistics or hypos or such available in South Africa so these morphs weren't used. We then took the whitst females and bred them to an ven whiter male we looked for. In some very very lucky pairing we hatched the witblits babies. They were not planned and never expected. Pure luck! No inbreeding. They are not weak in any way. They might look odd and 'weak' but that is because the mind tells you it is not normal. And I agree. It is not normal in the true sense of the word. Normal bearded dragons run around in the outback in Australia. A normal dragon should not even be in a cage! Bold but true. We have intervered the day the first dragons was smuggled out of Australia. Now we have to deal with it. And adapt to what people want. unfortunately this means breeding extreme things that are not always humane. Remember the witblits is not extreme. It is just rare. As for the translucents. The same legend, Josh, who put some life back in to the old school translucents are working with witblits babies. He said he will strengthen the witblts morph before marketing any. He was much surprised when he received his shipment as he would not need to do much 'strengthening' with them...

Why then do I sell these dragons when i have only produce 16 of them? Why don't I multiply them like alot of breeders do, so as to have the monopoly. I mean in a year or three I could then sell 300... Well because I am in South Africa... I do not have the huge gene pool that the guys from America and Europe have. I can not breed a witblts to an extreme red. That is because there are no extreme reds here. It is also impossible to import them. If I do the effort and if government agrees then it will work me out over R150000 for the first dragon... ( over $20 000). If I sell enough witblits babies then I might consider it in the future. But for now it is not happening. So basically it came down to the fact that the future of these dragons are 'overseas'. After long discussions and thought is was agreed that they should be sold for a large sum of money because they give the buyer endless possibilities. For example: Josh wants to 'strengthen' the morph and breed the whitest witblits ever. Another buyer are looking at creatine a translucent hypo witblits. And another want a pure red witblits (I like to call then fireblits...)

As for nature. Yes they would have been killed in nature. Survival of the fittest! Only the 'toughest' of odd animals survive nature. Like our honeybadgers. There are several reports of adult albino honeybadgers running around. Albino beardies? Well i dont think they have the verocity to kill an incoming bird of prey...

Hope this clears up a few things.
If you have not seen the website recently have alook. We updated with more photos of sub adult dragons. You will then see the are by no definition weak!

 

[witblits]

O, almost forgot. Regarding the size of these animals. We also selcted our breeding females on size. We selected for smaller animals because they are more economical to feed! Yes they lay less eggs than a huge female but it still worked out cheaper' for us. Crickets and other feeder insects are very very very expensive in SA! It was thus best to breed small females that ate less but produced well. Our males are 'normal' though. Much like in breeding cattle you want small cows and large bulls... Our 'white line' of dragons as I call it tends to be smaller than other dragons, not because they are inbred! But because they were selected to be. (They are also our most fertile line. Females laying up to 7 cluthes per year.) That is why Josh said he wants to 'work' with before he markets them . A good example of what the market wants. We want small dragons, US wants huge dragons.

So in short what is witblits now? Strong, Smaller than average dragons, most likely highly fertile, patternless gems with huge potential...

 

[angie.h]

I,too don't necessarily see anything wrong with smaller dragons,as if they are unhealthy. I can remember being at the Taylor Michigan show some years ago and a guy came around trying to sell a product that was a "wonder food supplement" of some type. He said that ALL beardies are supposed tobe 24-26" long,not just G.Giants. He said that 19-20" were stunted,hadn't been fed properly. So I asked him why,at 5'10 and my husband at 6'2,we were taller than he was [ I can't remember his exact height]and whether or not he had been stunted,hadn't been properly fed....maybe his genetics weren't strong ? Anyway,I wasn't looking to be smart but he got the point and left my table quickly. Think about Asian[ small] people....some of the longest lived people on earth.

 

[zebraflavencs]

Ah... now, interesting thread here all...
I for one, like Brian and Chris prefer larger animals...I don't care for the trans, hypos, or leathers either... I also don't really care for the "bling" dragons... Kinda strange eh ? Perhaps so. Each to their own... If you say these animals haven't been line bred, then we'd have to take your word for it now wouldn't we ? As for issues in recessives, it can take several generations of this particular morph to show up as a dominant gene... won't know til that happens.. If it happens. So, saying that... I'll quietly bow out... and watch.. from the shadows..lol...
Interesting...
Zebraflavencs

 

[KelliH]

They look really cool. I wish I had them in my collection! Have any of the patternless animals been bred back to a parent, sibling, or each other yet? If so what were the resuls of those breedings?

 

[chris allen]

So if I understand correctly then, these offspring we are seeing are from the very first parents that produced the first witblits? Is this the only pair of animals that has produced witblits? If that is the case, nobody knows what will come from breeding them, and they will have to be inbred in order to reproduce without your original pair.

 

[witblits]

Yes they will have to be bred back with each other to determine what gene this is. We have not done this yet but will do so in the next breeding season. We will perform a whole lot of diferent breedings: pair siblings, mate a male offspring with mother, female offspring with father, witblits to another patternless line, witblits to unrelated normal wild type dragons and witblits to other high colour dragons. This would make for some interesting results...

 

[chris allen]

That is where the weakness will come from, if there is any. Could be bad, could be fine, only time will tell. If you are saying you have an already limited gene pool there, that could be why this popped up, and already be inbred. Why does everyone think all these odd dragons are popping up? Just coincedence that all these oddities are popping up one after another? Doubt it. Take that into consideration with the increase in abnormalities, decrease in size/hardiness, and the potential dollar value with producing the newest morph. And not that it has to be a bad thing, but again, the race will start, and probably already has.

 

[chris allen]

Another question, has either of these parents that when paired together produced witblits, been bred to another dragon? Has the mother ever been paired with a different male, or the father ever paired with a different female? Is this for sure recessive?

 

[witblits]

That is true. Some of those breedings can be bad but in order to figure out what trait this is one has to do it. Obviously if those babies are any weaker than what our standards are then they will be euthanased. I don't think after one 'inbreeding' there will be any problems though.

I said the morphs is SA are limited, not the gene pool. I think the gene pool here is most likely more vigourous than that of other countries. We have many completely unrelated animals to do some breedings with.

No we are not 100% sure if this trait is recessive. That is why we will need to do more breedings. It might be a dominant gene..!? A similar patternless morph we have has been proved to be recessive. It might be or might not.

Quite simply: If I breed a male witblits to his het mother and get 50% witblits babies then we are working with a recesive gene.

 

[sizzlindragons]

First I want to say congrats on the witblits. They are really unique.
I wanted to add my opion on some of the replies.
I do lean towards more of what Chris Allen has been posting as far as my opinion with the genetics go.

The biggest wow factor to me is the price on these guys when only a handful have been produced and genetics are not understood on them yet. I would have worked with some other breeders and kept it under wraps for a while before I made them public. Not meant rude just my and only my opinion.

I do like all dragon morphs and have a really fun time with all the extreme genetics. I choose to work with some over others because of the health and ease of raising the babies over some certain morphs. I do not dislike any morph but I want a more hardy and robust baby over babies that are a pain to raise.
I have no clue what the witblits are like because I do not own one but I have to say all breeders of the trendier morphs know exactly what I mean with some of the so called "bling" morph babies can be a pain in the toosh to keep a plump look about them. It has nothing to do with a so called runt in the clutch. It has to do with genetics and no reason to deny that. Its going to happen when playing with genetics as much as we do. Some breeders do an excellent job of making a morph healthier and some do not take the time.

I have two female clutchmates off a 21 inch translucent male (yes there is larger trans out there) he is over 700 grams(supposably- never seen with my own eyes). He is a very large citrus trans but both babies are now almost a year and extremely small for thier age. So breeding size to get size does not always ensure size. Not to mention like the large dad these girls are a pain to keep plump. The het trans sister is more hardy then the translucent sister but both are to small for my taste. I let go most of what I buy or trade for because I do not like the size reguardless of the color.

If the babies stress a lot while raising them then I do not breed those either. I think genetics play a role in all of this and ensuring a well rounded dragon even with personality.

I want to keep up with the witblits as I find it interesting but as far as dishing out that kind of money on a morph that not much is known about is not in my agenda. If they had a few generations on this morph and knew exactly how to breed it and then busted out with 4 grand for a dragon they could be definite about then maybe but honestly no dragon is worth that in my book.
Unfortunately when it hits the US market the value depreciates instantly because we breed like mad. They will only have a high dollar value for a short time.
JMO.

My spell check is not working so my apologies.

 

[KelliH]

That is where the weakness will come from, if there is any. Could be bad, could be fine, only time will tell. If you are saying you have an already limited gene pool there, that could be why this popped up, and already be inbred. Why does everyone think all these odd dragons are popping up? Just coincedence that all these oddities are popping up one after another? Doubt it. Take that into consideration with the increase in abnormalities, decrease in size/hardiness, and the potential dollar value with producing the newest morph. And not that it has to be a bad thing, but again, the race will start, and probably already has.

Random genetic mutations? Is that not where all these morphs originate?

 

[sizzlindragons]

Random genetic mutations? Is that not where all these morphs originate?

To a point certainly. Most now days are not random genetic mutations. I doubt a hypo trans leatherback would ever randomly pop up.

 

[chris allen]

Random genetic mutations? Is that not where all these morphs originate?

I'm not talking about a simple hypo, but yet like what was said earlier....there were problems with hypos too at one time(some serious issues I saw for my own eyes and was kept under wraps by some of the biggest). People see little hints of whats being produced. Patches of odd skin, missing spikes, odd looking toes, the list goes on and on....

It seems like in certain places shortcuts are being taken and the dragons suffer. Just my opinion.

 

[chris allen]

That is true. Some of those breedings can be bad but in order to figure out what trait this is one has to do it. Obviously if those babies are any weaker than what our standards are then they will be euthanased. I don't think after one 'inbreeding' there will be any problems though.

I said the morphs is SA are limited, not the gene pool. I think the gene pool here is most likely more vigourous than that of other countries. We have many completely unrelated animals to do some breedings with.

No we are not 100% sure if this trait is recessive. That is why we will need to do more breedings. It might be a dominant gene..!? A similar patternless morph we have has been proved to be recessive. It might be or might not.

Quite simply: If I breed a male witblits to his het mother and get 50% witblits babies then we are working with a recesive gene.

Im not sure if I misunderstood, but this is what you posted
"Well because I am in South Africa... I do not have the huge gene pool that the guys from America and Europe have."

 

[chris allen]

Please, do not take this as being directed towards you, but I would like to see beardeds thrive, and I would love to see this morph go in a positive direction. The topic is interesting, and I love hearing other people's opinions on it.

 

[dragonluver83]

first off i was not directing my comment specifically at you though it seems you took it as such. I was making a broad statement. And your weight reference for a single dragon that bloodbank had is just my point. That is what the only one you have heard of that big. Years ago the average was 450-500grams and 20+ inches and it has slowly went further and further down to where now many people have full grown "healthy" adults that are 16 inches and in the 300 gram range. I do not think I have seen a single trans break into the 20" range as of yet and that is due to the translucent gene (just as this witblit/silverback gene and the leather gene) are actual genetic deformities that breeders have decided to purposely keep alive for reproduction cause it will make them a few extra bux. You know that as well as I do. Nature would not allow animals such as this to live, natural selection would kill them off soon after hatching because they are genetically inferior. Your post was in no way a flame it just shows your difference of opinion. Goes back to a PM you and me exchanged where I said I never plan to breed trans or leathers and you said that you have to stay with the times. I personally think there will always be a place for large bodied nicely colored "normals" as they are called and the miniturized "designer morphs" will be the ones the eventually go back to taking the back burner.

You say animals that were inbred are small and weak, what about leucistic? there a recessive trait, and there length was 26 - 27 plus inches and 500-600 plus gram animals.
Also Do you consider a scaleless snake to be genetically inferior??? I know i do. And fact is they have been found in the wild. Book title: Bio medical-surgical aspects of captive reptile husbandry. Author: Peter Linch. Page 400 In north California Dr. Nathan Cohen found a scaleless gopher snake that was well into sexual maturity. So there is a "genetically inferior" animal found in the wild surviving and thriving!!!

So if I understand correctly then, these offspring we are seeing are from the very first parents that produced the first witblits? Is this the only pair of animals that has produced witblits? If that is the case, nobody knows what will come from breeding them, and they will have to be inbred in order to reproduce without your original pair.

Good point Chris they will have to be inbred to find out. But so was the translucent gene. You breed/sell these animals but also seems like your bashing them cause there "weak inbreeds". I am confused. If this is your opinion on these animals why do you breed and re-sell them?

That is where the weakness will come from, if there is any. Could be bad, could be fine, only time will tell. If you are saying you have an already limited gene pool there, that could be why this popped up, and already be inbred. Why does everyone think all these odd dragons are popping up? Just coincedence that all these oddities are popping up one after another? Doubt it. Take that into consideration with the increase in abnormalities, decrease in size/hardiness, and the potential dollar value with producing the newest morph. And not that it has to be a bad thing, but again, the race will start, and probably already has.

Why does a genetic mutation have to be inbred? there are genetic mutations with people. are you saying those people are inbred??? Genetic mutations happens some of the time with everything that lives and thrives. So why when its happening here with dragons there considered obvious inbreds?
You want inbreds. go to the people who breed there snakes back to there parents. Talk to them about inbreeding.

You an Brian are also talking about size this and that. how about people. There are 5 ft 90 lb. Asian people and there are 7 ft 250 lb Germans.( no offense to any ethnic group just using this as an example.) Because the German is taller and bigger does that means he's healthier? Is a 12 ft snake healthier than a 6 ft snake? Maybe a better definition of "health" needs to be defined?

 

[dragonluver83]

Please, do not take this as being directed towards you, but I would like to see beardeds thrive, and I would love to see this morph go in a positive direction. The topic is interesting, and I love hearing other people's opinions on it.

Chris i have alot of respect for you and no way picking a fight/arguement, but your killing me. The translucent gene is still one of the hardest genes to work with, and your breeding and then selling them.. Can you say your translucent hatchlings do as well as your normals or other morph hatchlings? So why would you be so hard on beardeds thriving, and still breeding that gene?