Would it be possible to use Fauna as a “trust” for trades?

[Ken Foose]

I suppose there always has to be a wet blanket in the bunch, and I guess I'm it. Please don't take this the wrong way, as I like the majority of you folks very much, and I have done many trades and business transactions with a whole lot of people here. However, to put it frankly, my business dealings, trades or otherwise, are none of anyones business but other then myself and the person I'm dealing with. The idea of having my business dealings posted on a public forum bothers me a great deal. I do hope that on the chance that a person is doing a trade with another person on fauna, that you make sure you ask permission from both parties before one of the parties is allowed to post anything at all about the deal. My emails and phone calls are intended to be private dealings between myself and my counterpart, and would not be open for publication unless it was considered very warrented. I'm very pleased to have a pretty good standing here, and I have no intention of ever ripping anyone off. However, how I conduct my business, and what transpires between myself and whomever I'm dealing with is not anyone else business at all. I think that if you like this idea, go for it, sounds great if you like this sort of thing. Just make sure that you have a policy in place the excludes the people that don't want to participate please. Some sort of fauna version of the "no call list". Take care

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Ken,
If I read the discussion correctly thus far, both parties have to agree and post in the thread. This would not work if only one party posted. I would agree that I may or anyone else might also want to keep dealings private.
In that case, don’t agree and there is no post.

 

[DAND]

Ken,

Though I understand what you are saying, having it made public could very well bring more business. Even with something like this implemented, there could be some who would be wary of going into a deal with a person who someone else hasn't already dealt with.

 

[Lucille]

However, to put it frankly, my business dealings, trades or otherwise, are none of anyones business but other then myself and the person I'm dealing with. The idea of having my business dealings posted on a public forum bothers me a great deal.

Ken, my understanding is this program is to be voluntary to of course you are free to choose whether you wish to participate.
Out of curiousity, I looked at your recent posts and 100% of them are responses to posts in the BOI, so at some level I think you agree that public comment on private deal is OK; in fact Shelly posted about a deal she had with you and you thanked her for her comment.

 

[The BoidSmith]

However, to put it frankly, my business dealings, trades or otherwise, are none of anyones business but other then myself and the person I'm dealing with. The idea of having my business dealings posted on a public forum bothers me a great deal.

Ken,

The idea behind is to give people reassurance in a deal they are going to carry through. It’s perfectly understandable if anyone wants to maintain his deals private. But for example if someone wanted to do a breeding loan and did not feel comfortable without something in writing and witnesses to it, this would be the place to do it. Depending on how well it works people might get used to rely on it for most transactions and even request it as a guarantee. At least that’s the way I view it.
Regards.

 

[Jim O]

My emails and phone calls are intended to be private dealings between myself and my counterpart, and would not be open for publication unless it was considered very warrented.

With all due respect Ken, this is a totally unreasonable expectation. Unless you have the other party sign a nondisclosure agreement, anything that you write or say to any other party (be it a business or a private individual) is not private and that person has every right to repeat it and publish it. The only exceptions would be if you gave information to a professional who was providing services to you (such as an attorney, accountant, physician, clergyman, etc.) where there is an implicit expectation of privacy.

Hence the BOI exists. If the details of all deals were expected to remain private, how could anyone ever post about good or bad experiences?

None of what I said changes the fact that you could choose not to participate in this program. Frankly, your reputation precedes you and I doubt that anyone would see the need. If they did, you could provide a list of 100 references. If they still were unsure, you probably aren't doing the deal anyway.

 

[WebSlave]

I can see Ken's point of this. Perhaps there is some trepidation that some people may consider this proposal as a REQUIREMENT of doing a trade where one party may not want to take part in it. Kind of like how sending photos of individual animals in a sale or trade at one time was a courtesy and lately has become a requirement for some people to even consider doing business. Sort of like the "Frankenstein Effect".

If past history has been any guide around here, 10 percent will love it, 10 percent will hate it, and the other 80 percent won't even know about it, or won't care one way or the other.

Now WHERE exactly should such a forum be located? If it is going to be open to all types of animal and hard good trades, it needs to be in a relevant section. So where do you prefer? Any consensus on a name? It doesn't have to be perfect, we can always change it later.

 

[Jim O]

Kind of like how sending photos of individual animals in a sale or trade at one time was a courtesy and lately has become a requirement for some people to even consider doing business.

Apples and oranges, Rich. The reason that pics have become "standard" is that the technology has become easily and cheaply available and so many people have broadband connections. When we used to have to take film pics and have them developed and printed (at an expense) and then scan them (and scanners were expensive) creating those uncompressed files that took forever to upload and download with those old 2800 baud dial up modems...you get the "picture".

Today, even a cheap digital camera can create jpeg images that compress well and upload/download in seconds.

 

[jglass38]

Dan, excellent idea! With the amount of chicanery going on in the reptile industry, I think any safeguard is a good safeguard. The BOI gives people a chance to research before and comment after but this idea would really hold people to the trades that they agree too. Love it!

Jamie

 

[WebSlave]

I think you missed the point Jim. Someone producing 4,000 to 6,000 babies per year just doesn't have the time to send out individual photos to every Tom, Dick, and Harry who wants a photo of a $25 animal. Yet some people are coming to expect that sort of service because someone only producing 200 animals per year certainly does have that sort of time available. No lie, I have had people ask me to send them photos of every Motley corn I have so they could pick out the one they wanted. I declined their business. That is what some people are coming to expect these days, and it just is not a feasible way for everyone to do business. How many times have we seen people claim that they absolutely will not buy an animal that they cannot see photos of beforehand? Extrapolate this to people who may come to claim that they absolutely will not do a trade with someone who will not engage in this process being discussed here. This is the "Frankenstein" I mentioned earlier.

What Ken Foose may be bringing up as a point is that some people could be concerned that this process being discussed here could add another layer of complexity and additional time to a process that would be a burden upon them if REQUIRED by the other party. Having a sterling reputation does you absolutely no good at all if you are dealing with someone who doesn't have a clue about that reputation. So some newbie wanting to do a trade with Ken, and not knowing of his good reputation and insisting upon this public process may be turned off enough by Ken's refusal to take the time out of his busy schedule to participate, and he could therefore lose out on that trade because of it.

I believe that it is a plausible concern and needs to be considered.

Personally, I don't do trades myself, but if I did, I certainly would not have the time to become involved in some long drawn out process in order to do so. I do see the benefits of a project like this, but it obviously is not going to fit everyone. And if someone has an issue with it, I think it needs to be addressed and discussed just as much as the positive aspects of it.

 

[Wilomn]

While a good idea in its essence, this will be a bundle of headaches for whomever takes it over.

Here's my take on it.

My name is pretty good as far as my animals go. IF you can't let yourself do a deal with me based on what is known of me here THEN perhaps we don't really need to be doing business.

It's a pretty hoop. All shiney and bright. I bet it looks good in flames too.

I, however, REALLY have NO desire to jump through it. No time, no desire, no NEED.

That's just me though.

 

[Jim O]

Rich, someone (like you) who produces 4,000 to 6,000 animals a year has every right to take "representative" photos and post them on your site. If someone wants to pick and choose then they can look at your stock at show. At a certain point it becomes cost-ineffective to jump through hoops (to use my esteemed colleague's expression) for the customer. But I cannot imagine you would not at least point them to pictures of animals that you have produced and explain that you cannot take pictures of them all. For someone like you or Ken, and perhaps Wes, this "service" would be unnecessary. And that was my earlier point. On the other hand, if I were doing a trade (I don't do trades either honestly, but if I were to do one) with someone relatively unknown I might consider using such a service if I felt that it would be worth my effort.

Here's a business idea that someone may want to try. It's been done for other products but imagine this one for private reptile sales: an escrow service. For 1% of the total sale I will accept payment, hold it, and deliver it when and if the buyer is satisfied. In case of a dispute, I will help mediate but I will not release funds to either party until they both agree or they have completed litigation and the court decides who gets what. Again, not necessary in dealing with you or Ken, or Wes, but might protect people from the likes of serpent-turd.

 

[Alias47]

Sounds like a great idea to me...whether I would use it or not...

I can see SOME situations that would warrant it...while there are definitely plenty of situations where it would not be a consideration...much less a requirement. Nothing wrong with having tools at hand...even if you don't use them much...


Although, most of the ripoff artists in the herp community seem to do so PUBLICALLY anyhow...although a proactive policing such as this may help reduce the number of incidents.

 

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Here's a business idea that someone may want to try. It's been done for other products but imagine this one for private reptile sales: an escrow service. For 1% of the total sale I will accept payment, hold it, and deliver it when and if the buyer is satisfied. In case of a dispute, I will help mediate but I will not release funds to either party until they both agree or they have completed litigation and the court decides who gets what. Again, not necessary in dealing with you or Ken, or Wes, but might protect people from the likes of serpent-turd.

This is where I thought this idea was going when I started reading the thread. But a 1% fee would probably not make it worth while to even do the Trust account bookkeeping....

 

[Dennis1]

I was thinking it would be a place to post what you have to trade and what you want for the trade,
For example I would say i have a pair of bloods plus money and im looking for a pair of pied hets and then someone reading the trust forum would say i got some for such and such plus your bloods, we then do our deal on the forum so no one gets ripped off and then we have public records of the trade in case the bloods and or hets were misrepresented
not just limited to hey if you want to do a trade with me we will do it through fauna trust and loan
Is this right?

 

[Ken Foose]

Don't get me wrong. This whole proposal might be just what is needed to keep the bad guys from ripping people off. Might not.

And yes, I read the BOI, and yes, it helps me judge who to deal with, and who not to deal with. And yes, I will reply to someone on the BOI if they say something nice about me, or bad for that matter. That is sometimes the after effect of a business transaction. However, what I don't need is a business deal on a public forum where anyone can put thier two cents worth in on a deal that they frankly have no business with. It might just be me, and if so, I'm sorry. I'm not a super private person, but I do not care to give out information to people who just don't need it. As far as stopping someone you are dealing with from publishing the information, indeed that can't be helped. I understand that. But I promise, there would not be a second chance for that person to do it again. Now, I don't have anything to hide, and frankly, I don't have anything super secret in my life. But I really don't like the idea of strangers putting thier noses, or opinions into my business dealings. After the fact is one thing, during is something else completely. I guess I should not even have brought this up, let you guys set it up, and just stayed out of it. I just wanted to make sure that my business did not end up on a public forum unless I chose to do so. If someone wants to figure out if I'm safe to deal with or not, there is the BOI, which I really like, or any other number of sources where I can be looked up or talked about. You know the little cards the grocery stores give you to get the lower prices? The ones that you get after you give them all your information? The ones that allow the stores to track each and every purchase that you make with them? I'm the guy that does not have one of those cards, but would rather spend the extra money then let a bunch of people know exactly what my diet is, or how many cheetos I buy. Like I said, it's most likely just me. I guess I'm paranoid, yup, that's got to be it. Thank you

 

[Lucille]

how many cheetos I buy.

All of a sudden I see your point Ken. If Kroger ever let people access their computers so that people could see how many Cheetos I buy, not to mention Reese's peanut butter cups, Blue Bell Ice Cream....well, you get the picture, I want my purchases of that nature private. But, fortunately, this is all voluntary here........

 

[Griz]

Well, just call me the guinea pig but here are my thoughts on how it would transpire with me utilizing a real life transaction I currently have going. So, let's pretend this service is in place and we go from there........

Fauna TNT: Trade between Bob Woodard and Joey Hickorynut.

You click on the above line link and it takes you here.........

This transaction involves the cash purchase price of $XXXX for a male Hypo boa as seen here ------>

This animal was produced by breeder XXX in 2003 and is an F2 unproven animal. His temperment is excellent and his feeding response is excellent. The animal has no known health problems. A complete record of health is included in the sale starting from the date of sellers acquisition. Animal is warrantied live upon arrival and health guarantee for 24 hours from receipt. Animal will be shipped via UPS overnight service on xx/xx/xx date.

That would end this particular initial posting.

The next posting would be from the buyer and would look like this ----->

Once this is posted and delivery confirmation receipt is posted then the seller would post something like this ----->

And this ----->

And this ---->

Then, upon acceptance of the package the buyer posts pics as well as thoughts. Then, to finish the transaction, both buyer and seller posts that they are happy with the transaction. At the 3 month mark, or whatever time you decide upon, the mods lock the thread. Anyways, those are my thoughts on how it would play out. I do not know that I will have the time/energy to do this with every transaction but for those who insist on it I will obliged. Thoughts?

Griz

 

[Griz]

Crap! I swear when I clicked on properties it stated my pics were 400x550! I apologize for the HUGE pics! And here I was thinking I helped this thread....

Griz

 

[groovygeckos]

Good idea !

Someone just posted what seems to make the most sence .

And since there isnt a "perfect place" for it , how about a "Trade Forum" that also includes this "Truth ,Trades & Loans" section ? Then it would have its own home !

So this would be where to advertise if you are looking to trade, then when you have another trader agree to something this c/would come into play .