Info Yaz Mansour and the dead Boa

[Yaz23]

I am still very schocked how that was a female.... he was sold to me as a male, he was probed a male a couple times, and he was breeding a female. I guess we'll see how my female over here does with her babies. If she drops babies and not slugs I will be in pure amazement. Impregnated herself and had a successful litter? I'm just speachless how thats a female... ?

 

[DaveyFig]

I am still very schocked how that was a female.... he was sold to me as a male, he was probed a male a couple times, and he was breeding a female. I guess we'll see how my female over here does with her babies. If she drops babies and not slugs I will be in pure amazement. Impregnated herself and had a successful litter? I'm just speachless how thats a female... ?

That's a whole lot of talking about the sex, and nothing about the virus. The sex shouldn't matter anyway. I hear about people all the time that change from male to female and don't die. There was a virus found in a boa that has been in your collection for two years. You might want to stop worrying about how a snake is going to have babies, and start worrying about that.
Will the free boas come with vet reports?

 

[Yaz23]

"The sex shouldn't matter anyway. I hear about people all the time that change from male to female and don't die."

Yes sure people mis-sex snakes BUT I dont think Ive ever heard of a female boa that was probed male several times and that locked up with another female and got the other one pregnant.

 

[tinmantribe5]

a lot of snake can Tail wrap without Penetration!

 

[tinmantribe5]

They have to find out Who's Who?

 

[Southern Wolf]

Thank you Koshy.

For the rest of the ones who seem to never end. I was debating whether to just ignore this thread or not. The deal is done yet you continue. I will state this ONE more time so read it thoroughly WITHOUT twisting words and saying things that I NEVER said. I am extremely tired of this nonsense and could care less about this thread anymore because its done.

Kevin, RE-READ the thread. Stop making up You said this: "You wouldnt issue a refund without the report... so did you refund part/all of the lab fees? Its a valid question."

My VALID answer is this: I STATED MANY TIMES I WOULD GIVE HIM A REFUND WHETHER OR NOT THE NECROPSY WAS DONE BEFORE HE EVEN CHOSE TO DO IT.

Be careful what you ask for.... it will come back to bite you. Just so you know... Im not twisting your words... Im quoting you word for word.

I was telling you about maybe not getting a necropsy done because I knew they were very pricey and I didnt think you had a 'hook up' to get one done. I was only saying that so you wouldnt be spending more money. I do want to know what happened exactly because pneumonia doesnt seem accurate. Once I see the report and photos, and if thats what he died from then we can go from there. I have spoken with a few people here and they all said it doesnt make sense. I will be speaking to my personal exotic vet on Monday about the situation and would like to hear new information about the necropsy. I believe its too early to issue any type of refund considering there isnt any type of report done, no photos to be seen, and I need written documents to view. I apologize for this but documented proof is all I need.

Thanks,
Yaz M.

David,

Before I issue any type of refund, I'd like to view the necropsy reports and photos involved. When you get them please email me them. Also, please email me ALL the pictures you took when you saw him dead in the cage.

Thanks,
Yaz M.

Koshy, thats what I told him. David (the buyer) said it will take 7-10 days for the report to get back. I told him I'd like to see it and then from there we could move forward as far as refunding or not.

Here are some of the pics of the boa in my ad:

I will not refund anything until I see the FULL necropsy paperwork AND contact information of ALL the vets/doctors that performed/looked at my boa. All the information will be looked over and showed to my personal vet.

If photos were taken (which there should be), those must be sent as well.

So I have to ask.... did you think the techs that did the necropsy were incompetent? Their results had to pass the muster of your vet.

... Honestly, I will not refund a penny until I see the results from the lab. If you were the seller and know you shipped a perfectly healthy snake that you have had for 2 years, it arrives to the buyer PERFECTLY with no problems, you dont hear anything from the buyer for 2 1/2 days, then all of a sudden the boa is sick and dies, wouldnt you want some proof that the snake didnt die because of the buyer?

I DID NOT want to drag this out. I told David TONS OF DAMN TIMES that I would issue a refund to him AFTER I saw the report from the necropsy so I can see why he died. ...

...
I told him TONS of times all I needed was proof that he died from something prior to me shipping him and then I'd give him a refund. It was odd to me why he couldnt wait a week to see what the reason behind the boas death was. I dont think thats unreasonable of me.

I agree with you... that is not an unreasonable request... especially since he decided to get the necropsy done.

I will say this again, ALL IM WANTING is to see how he died. I am not arguing to not refund him. He will get some type of refund but before I issue a refund or the amount of the refund I want to see how he died to make sure that it was prior to shipping or not.

I’ll be honest... I missed this post the first go round. I can appreciate and commend you on the bolded part. ... I cant blame you in the least about wanting to know how he died.

I told him I'd give him a partial refund either way. When I was informed on Thursday he needed to go to a vet, I told David to call me and let me know so I would pay compensation for the fee.

I would be willing to bet the lab work was a lot less than a vet visit would be... thus one of the reasons we are all wanting to know if you covered the expenses since you plainly state above that no refund would be issued until the report was in. You are requiring a report for a refund... there for if you are issuing a refund.. You should refund the cost of the lab work as well.

Yaz... I have said before (I think... and if not I will now).... there is some of what you did that I am 100% behind you on. I would have done the same thing however there are some things.... that I definitely cant support you on the way you handled them.

There are a few of us that have been following this thread that have the same questions and concerns. Why hide it behind closed doors since everything else is out in the open.

I am just speculating now... so bear with me.

The buyer stated at one time he would be happy with a refund of (I think) $270 which would basically be the cost of the animal since shipping charges were so high. He believes... AS DO I... that you would not knowingly ship out a sick snake. Let me say it again.... I don’t think you knew the animal had problems upon shipping. Due to the buyer not wanting you to take all the loss he agreed to just a refund of the cost of the animal.

Now the question still remains.... did you refund him the cost of the lab expenses? Or even half the lab expenses?

I can see the buyer being accommodating to a point. He however paid $390 for the animal + $65 for lab expenses to see what killed it. The buyer is out $455 with nothing to show for it. Your out your boa and now the loss of the $390 (or whatever amount you refunded). It’s not really fair either way you look at it.....

Will you put our minds at ease? What was the refunded amount since there have been a lot of numbers thrown around by both you and the OP? Was the lab expenses covered by you since you wanted them before a refund was issued?

 

[Yaz23]

Ok well I understand that however Ive never seen 2 females actually 'tail wrap'. Let alone the one that was a male and now a female(?) had big spurs, probed male and tail wrapped then got the other one pregnant. I really cant wait to see what kinds of things come out of the female I have here.

 

[chondrogal]

A few posts up Yaz stated that he would give a full refund pending the official necropsy results. I believe he is a man of his word and this will happen now.

Since this is the first time Yaz has encountered a problem with an animal he sold I'm sure he learned a valuable lesson and bet that he'll handle any future problems a little bit differently.

Now, Yaz, if I dare say this to you now...... David is done with this deceased snake, if it was in my collection and this happened to me.... I'd try to go the extra step and see if it's still possible to follow up further and try to find out more about the virus that killed this snake. David had it in quarantine, unfortunately it was living in your general population and had indeed been housed at least temporarily with another one of your snakes. For the sake of the rest of your collection and peace of mind I'd respectfully suggest you do follow up if it's still possible. The "gravid" swelling your girl is exhibiting could be something else going on in her organs. It would really suck to go in your snake room one morning and find a dead snake instead of a cage full of babies
Perhaps it's something that is quite treatable and knowing that this can take a snake downhill quite quickly this could actually wind up being a blessing in disguise for you.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

I think we are all very curious what your female is holding as well (there have been proven cases of parthogenesis in boas, boawoman (boastore) just had a litter this season in fact from an unbred female).

I have pics of those two female boas I had in '02 courting but I don't think I got photos of the actual tail wraps (old disposable 35mm back in the day means cruddy pics) if you really want to see...

Regardless, and I know I'm not helping by continuing to throw in my $0.02 either, I think we should wait until David can post the actual report which I believe he said should be available within a week if not a few days.

 

[Yaz23]

I will not refund the necropsy, I will be fine with refunding the rest of amount he sent me ($390). He will have a FULL refund on the amount he sent me. I will say this, I am out a boa AND $140+ for the shipping etc. Considering this wasnt either of our faults I dont understand why I'm also going to be paying for the necropsy as well. David and I agreed upon a refund amount I already paid him for, yet now I am STILL going to be shooting him the shipping cost which is NOW COMING FROM MY POCKET considering that amount was paid to UPS for their shipping services. So basically the boa I sent is gone (which obviously had value) and $140 is coming out of my pocket. Yet you still think I should be paying for the necropsy report?

like this could happen to anyone and if I were on the other side of this I wouldnt mind taking the hit for the shipping cost considering the seller didnt know about the animal being sick. David felt the same way so we agreed on the refund amount. Well now from everyone sticking me with this, the shipping amount is coming from my pocket considering that $140 went to UPS not myself. David will have his $390 and I have no boa and -$140 because that $140 was to UPS not myself. But still I'm having to pay for the necropsy? I didnt send him a sick snake that I knew about and it wasnt dead when he got it but refunding the $390 to me should make things beyond perfect and refunding $65 for the necropsy is not on me.

 

[Skiploder]

Considering this wasnt either of our faults I dont understand why I'm also going to be paying for the necropsy as well.

How do you define "fault" Yaz"?

As far as I am concerned, "fault" is independent of intent. While it is generally accepted here that you had no idea you were shipping out a sick animal - you are still at fault. The animal was yours. It was represented as healthy and the integral part of your deal with David was that he would be receiving a healthy animal. Regardless of whether you knew it or not, you are at fault in this transaction.

I think the point you are missing is this:

You are very lucky that you were dealing with David. There are plenty of people that would not have been satisfied with a refund on the animal and the shipping. They would want full compensation for the vet visit and the necropsy.

This necropsy may just uncover a pathogen in your collection, which should be worth the $65 alone. Even if it didn't, the whole reason why the necropsy took place was because you failed (I know I know - not intentionally) to deliver a healthy animal to your customer.

Period. Whether you are willing to admit it, there is fault here and it's yours.

What I think you need to grasp is that while David agreed to a settlement - that settlement would not be near enough for a lot of people reading this thread.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Yaz... let me say again... Im not out to get you... I just dont understand some things... thus the questions.

If the buyer is willing to take the refund for just the cost of the snake... I dont have a problem with that. It is obvious from his posts that he is trying to make it so you dont have to absorb the full burden of this loss. This really was NO ONE's fault for it dying.

in one of your posts you stated

Originally Posted by Yaz23
I told him I'd give him a partial refund either way. When I was informed on Thursday he needed to go to a vet, I told David to call me and let me know so I would pay compensation for the fee.

If you were willing to compensate for the cost of the vet for a sick snake.... why not help cover the cost of the lab work to find out what killed the boa?

Im not saying you SHOULD have to pay the $390 plus the cost of the lab work... ultimately the refund comes down to if the buyer is happy. If he is happy with just the cost of the snake... so be it. Im not privy to the phone call details... so just like everyone else... we can just speculate.

From what I have read... it definitely looks like the buyer doesnt want you to have eat the whole loss.... so if this is truely the case... why not talk to him about this option. I dont know what the refund amount currently is... but apparently he is happy with it or he wouldnt have accepted it. When the final report comes back... and it is determined to be a pre existing condition... why not see if he is willing to take the current refund plus the lab amount? It already seems he is willing to write off the shipping amount so your not out everything.

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

Considering this wasnt either of our faults I dont understand why I'm also going to be paying for the necropsy as well.

Because that would be the ethical thing to do. Can't believe it actually needs explaining.

See, you completely overlook that fact that he HAD to get a necropsy, in order to ENSURE it wasn't something that could infect the rest of his colony. IBD can lay dormant for years, and wipe out an entire collection in no time. Especially if he has pythons. Lucky for him, no inclusions were detected. But he wouldn't know that without the necropsy and proper testing.

Not saying you have to do it. I've already said it's not our business what you guys agreed to behind closed doors. But there are numerous things in this thread that point to you not being the most ethical of people to be dealing with. You think that won't effect your future business?

On the same note, if you did do the right thing, people could also read that, and it might have a little different outcome on peoples decisions.


And you keep bringing up your gravid female as an apparent defense. It's not a defense at all, unless she pops some babies. But I'll tell you, that Boa does not look gravid to me. Gravid females are FAT. Scale separation and everything. Sorta like this...

Huge ain't she? She gave me a nice litter of 26 slugs not long after this picture. She was housed ALONE, when that happened.

They can also retain sperm, and fertilize ovum at a later date.

Do the right thing Yaz.

 

[lanceheads]

Because that would be the ethical thing to do. Can't believe it actually needs explaining.

See, you completely overlook that fact that he HAD to get a necropsy, in order to ENSURE it wasn't something that could infect the rest of his colony. IBD can lay dormant for years, and wipe out an entire collection in no time. Especially if he has pythons. Lucky for him, no inclusions were detected. But he wouldn't know that without the necropsy and proper testing.

Not saying you have to do it. I've already said it's not our business what you guys agreed to behind closed doors. But there are numerous things in this thread that point to you not being the most ethical of people to be dealing with. You think that won't effect your future business?

On the same note, if you did do the right thing, people could also read that, and it might have a little different outcome on peoples decisions.


And you keep bringing up your gravid female as an apparent defense. It's not a defense at all, unless she pops some babies. But I'll tell you, that Boa does not look gravid to me. Gravid females are FAT. Scale separation and everything. Sorta like this...

Huge ain't she? She gave me a nice litter of 26 slugs not long after this picture. She was housed ALONE, when that happened.

They can also retain sperm, and fertilize ovum at a later date.

Do the right thing Yaz.

Good post Richard!


Randal Berry

 

[Yaz23]

Kevin, when David told me about how the snake needed to go to the vet because he wa sick I told him I'd compensate him for the vet. Well at that time the boa wasnt dead so I wasnt giving him a refund off the whole amount. I thought, ok well I'll be out $60-$100 for the vet visit thats fine as long as the boa is ok and David is ok. Well I received a call the next morning about the boa dead. So basically now that I'm basically issuing him a full refund and not a simple vet fee because the boa was sick, it comes into a different situation. David and I agreed to the refund and thought considering I didnt know about the boa being sick that the shipping didnt have to be refunded. If David doesnt mind about the shipping then perhaps just the necropsy fee is that what your saying? The refund I gave him + the $65 for the necropsy?

Richard, my albino didnt look nearly that thick and she didnt even have scale seperation. She dropped 12 slugs and 6 live. Not all boas have scale seperation, so just because the female I posted doesnt have scale seperation doesnt mean shes not gavid. My albino that dropped was A LOT smaller than this columbian is AND never had scale seperation and looked smaller than your albino that you posted as well.

 

[aleria]

Now in my earlier post, and thusly answered question by Yaz, I asked the following:

IF THE TEST COMES BACK SHOWING DEFINITIVELY THAT THE ILLNESS WAS PRESENT BEFORE SALE, WHETHER YOU REALIZED IT OR NOT, SINCE YOU STATED MULTIPLE TIMES THAT A(FULL AT ONE POINT) REFUND WAS DEPENDANT UPON PROOF FROM THE NECROPSY, WILL YOU BE COMPENSATING HIM FOR THOSE TESTING FEES?

In the response from Yaz, he stated that he would be giving him a full refund if the tests proved that the boa was sick prior to shipping.
Now in the context of my question when I said a full refund I also said including those testing fees as he was saying flat out that he would not give a full refund without the results of those tests.
But now I am seeing that apparently in his answer he meant that he would only refund the full amount paid, not including the testing fees, and now also some mention of not paying shipping either. I'm not sure if this is still just a hypothetical answer being given as an "if it's not proven with the results" or if he is now going back on exactly what he stated in response to my question.
But if it is now being stated that even with positive results posted proving the boa sick prior to shipping the OP will not be receiving back his full $390+ the cost of the necro, then I take back my commendation on manning up and being a good guy.

Truthfully it shouldn't matter if the OP is a nice enough guy to be willing to eat some of the cost, it's just plain good ethics, not just business ethics, but good ethics as a human being to give him back all that he has lost in this transaction. That is how the whole buyer-seller relationship is SUPPOSED to work. And for those that don't agree, then you probably should get out of selling anything, ever, to anyone.

I mean even I myself had a snake become so far neurologically damaged due to a minor error in packaging that it had to be euthanized, and you know what? That seller had absolutely no argument about sending me back every cent he received from me, that includes shipping, even though he was out a snake. That is how things are done by the good guys.

 

[Yaz23]

Jessica, I was planning on giving him the rest of the full amount. I just was unsure what Kevin was saying in his response "why not see if he is willing to take the current refund plus the lab amount? It already seems he is willing to write off the shipping amount so your not out everything." So I was asking what he meant.

 

[aleria]

Correct, and that was what I was asking also. If he will be receiving the $390+whatever other charges he has incurred in this situation.

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

I've eaten my hat before. I ain't immune to being wrong. Just said she don't look gravid to me. More like an adult Boa with a healthy body weight should look normally.

Care to respond to the rest of my post? I mean, I put more important things in my post then if your female is gravid or not. Well, important to most of us anyway. Why you pick the insignificant things to respond to?

 

[DaveyFig]

Care to respond to the rest of my post? I mean, I put more important things in my post then if your female is gravid or not. Well, important to most of us anyway. Why you pick the insignificant things to respond to?

He's been doing that with most of my posts, and the posts of a handful of others too. I guess we don't get free boas!