Info Yaz Mansour and the dead Boa

[Southern Wolf]

Kevin, when David told me about how the snake needed to go to the vet because he wa sick I told him I'd compensate him for the vet. Well at that time the boa wasnt dead so I wasnt giving him a refund off the whole amount. I thought, ok well I'll be out $60-$100 for the vet visit thats fine as long as the boa is ok and David is ok. Well I received a call the next morning about the boa dead. So basically now that I'm basically issuing him a full refund and not a simple vet fee because the boa was sick, it comes into a different situation. David and I agreed to the refund and thought considering I didnt know about the boa being sick that the shipping didnt have to be refunded. If David doesnt mind about the shipping then perhaps just the necropsy fee is that what your saying? The refund I gave him + the $65 for the necropsy?

I can see your thought process on this. The death of the boa does put a new twist on things.

Yes... that is what I was suggesting... the current refund plus the lab fee's. It seems that David was trying to keep you from having to cover the whole loss by not requesting the shipping fee's.

Like I said in the PM... think about what you have learned (or could learn) because he went ahead and had the necropsy done. I understand you insisted on the report to issue a full refund... however it looks like he doesnt really want you to have to cover the full cost of the loss. Why not talk to him about covering half or all of the lab fee's. Think about what you have learned from the report so far. Is this not good info to have.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

If it were my animal I'd probably offer to pay the fees to have the rest of the testing done just so I'd know what it was specifically, so I'd know if there was risk to my collection.

That's a personal decision though, just what I'd do, because I'm paranoid that way.

 

[Laura Fopiano]

He's been doing that with most of my posts, and the posts of a handful of others too. I guess we don't get free boas!

In all honesty Davey, would you really want one?

Yaz, I'm not gonna try and bust your balls here, you've done a great job all on your own. However, many here on this board know what I went through almost 10 years ago and the pain of what I went through still stays with me.

I was an enthusiastic breeder new to boas, I was the Pres. of Southern California Herpetological Ass. I had many different species under my belt and felt very confident in my abilities. I knew all about temps, humidity, heck I even studied the rain season in the area of the world that my animals came from, I really thought I was on top of my game.

I had a male die in my collection for no apparent reason, he had never been sick, never regurged, sheds were perfect, I had covered all of my bases and took him for a necropsy....he died from IBD a disease that in my collection had no symptoms.

I decided to due a live liver biopsy on an animal that would be the least likely to have it. Now keep in mind that I had no problems in my collection and no reason to believe that any other snakes in my possesion were ill. When her test came back I was on the floor, she was positive.

I cried, I cursed, I did the whole whoa is me, I taked to friends and then I walked about 45 boas to my freezer and locked the door. My partner held my hand because everything in me said "go get them out the vet could be wrong" And I sat there and watched the clock and cried....it was my fault. I did the one thing that so many new keepers do, I cross contaminated my own collection by cutting corners to save time and money.

My story is well documented on this forum, I have been a member for a long time and have made life long friends. I tell it more often that I like to when a new to boas, enthusiastic person like yourself show a bit of a stubborn streak as I did. Please, don't let cutting corners, and saving money be the end of your passion.

It almost killed me to go through that, but life has a way of changing things, I had to start all over again, new cages, heat, everything. I spared no expense and animals that come into our collection sit in Q for a minimum of 6 months, some have been there for much longer, not because we think there could be something wrong, wer'e just not in such a hurry to win an unwinnable race. We stop and smell the roses, or in our case the boa and gecko poop.

 

[garweft]

I will not refund the necropsy, I will be fine with refunding the rest of amount he sent me ($390). He will have a FULL refund on the amount he sent me. I will say this, I am out a boa AND $140+ for the shipping etc. Considering this wasnt either of our faults I dont understand why I'm also going to be paying for the necropsy as well. David and I agreed upon a refund amount I already paid him for, yet now I am STILL going to be shooting him the shipping cost which is NOW COMING FROM MY POCKET considering that amount was paid to UPS for their shipping services. So basically the boa I sent is gone (which obviously had value) and $140 is coming out of my pocket. Yet you still think I should be paying for the necropsy report?

like this could happen to anyone and if I were on the other side of this I wouldnt mind taking the hit for the shipping cost considering the seller didnt know about the animal being sick. David felt the same way so we agreed on the refund amount. Well now from everyone sticking me with this, the shipping amount is coming from my pocket considering that $140 went to UPS not myself. David will have his $390 and I have no boa and -$140 because that $140 was to UPS not myself. But still I'm having to pay for the necropsy? I didnt send him a sick snake that I knew about and it wasnt dead when he got it but refunding the $390 to me should make things beyond perfect and refunding $65 for the necropsy is not on me.

That is part of the business. Believe it or not there is risk in boxing up an animal and shipping them across the country. Every animal you ship out you are taking the risk of losing that animal and the shipping out of your own pocket. You need to understand this if you plan to sell live animals online.

As for the refund amount, I really don't care. You both agreed to an amount so that's good enough for me. The attitude you've displayed has been less than stellar though.

 

[deborahbroadus]

If it were my animal I'd probably offer to pay the fees to have the rest of the testing done just so I'd know what it was specifically, so I'd know if there was risk to my collection.

That's a personal decision though, just what I'd do, because I'm paranoid that way.

Yes, exactly what most of us would do! Since the procedure has already been begun, it should be a simple matter to get this testing concluded without delay. In my opinion, the seller's future as a breeder depends on this being done. It's no longer an issue that is simply about a sick animal, profit and loss.

The way I see it, his whole stock is suspect now because of the evidence of the report.

 

[Skiploder]

The way I see it, his whole stock is suspect now because of the evidence of the report.

Did I miss something?

Was there ever a report?

Last I heard there were intial findings that didn't really state a cause of death. All we know is that the snake is dead and that it was full of mucous.

Do we know whether it was viral, bacterial or associated with another pathogen?

I agree that his stock is suspect - I agree 100% with that. But there are many more questions that still need to be answered here.

I think it would be prudent to say that many people won't do business with Yaz until the results of that necropsy are in.

 

[rjarosek]

Did I miss something?

Was there ever a report?

Last I heard there were intial findings that didn't really state a cause of death. All we know is that the snake is dead and that it was full of mucous.

Do we know whether it was viral, bacterial or associated with another pathogen?

I agree that his stock is suspect - I agree 100% with that. But there are many more questions that still need to be answered here.

I think it would be prudent to say that many people won't do business with Yaz until the results of that necropsy are in.

Post #440 was where the bomb was dropped.

 

[Skiploder]

Post #440 was where the bomb was dropped.

Thanks - missed it.

 

[MikeCurtin]

no problem.

A little late for that .

If I was the seller in this transaction, I would make absolutely sure that the buyer did not have a penny less in his pocket after dealing with me than before. Even if you give him a "full" refund, Yaz, he won't receive it because he spent money out of his own pocket to prove to you that the snake you sold him was sick.

I have given a full refund once before, and I am 100% sure the buyer killed the snake I sold him within 48 hours. I am so sure about this that I refused to give him the replacement that he wanted. I gave him the cash even though another baby wouldn't have costed anything. It was worth it to me not to have the transaction turn into a mess.

I think my position on dealing with you has gone from "very hesitant" to "not gonna happen".

 

[Yaz23]

Well people handle things differently obviously. You throw refunds out KNOWING that the person who bought your snake killed it? That would never happen with me. I dont trust people on the internet thats why I normally like to chat with the person on the phone before I sell/buy anything. It gives me a better piece of mind. I have refused to sell people snakes before because they didnt seem right on the phone. That is how I work. If you want to give refunds out to people who kill snakes whether its on purpose or not, thats your philosophy NOT mine. If your that absorbed to keeping a good rep to give refunds out so the buyer can 'be happy' even though you are saying you KNEW the buyer killed the snake I think that is overboard. But hey thats your business and not mine. Am I right? This is how I work, I dont give FULL refunds until its shown that it was prior to shipping. I'd still give a refund regardless but not a full one. If the snake arrives dead the buyer will be refunded in full, if it arrives sick then the vet costs will be paid or I get the snake back and they get a full refund. In this case it happened a little different. The snake arrived fine and was fine for a few days and then died, so it was more of a question that POSSIBLY something happened from the buyers side so that is why I was questionable about the whole situation and didnt want to give a full refund right away.

If Im suspicious about something, I have the right to be. I handled this how I did because I was suspicious about a 'thought to be' healthy snake was sent out and a couple days later it died. I dont see an issue with that.

 

[rjarosek]

If your that absorbed to keeping a good rep to give refunds out so the buyer can 'be happy' even though you are saying you KNEW the buyer killed the snake I think that is overboard.

You know what I think is overboard. Offering free snakes when they are going to be slugs... oh and Free hotels and trips to Disney World. Just to make people happy.

I will do business with Mike anytime without needing to think about it. You on the other hand.

 

[spyder79]

If the snake arrives dead the buyer will be refunded in full, if it arrives sick then the vet costs will be paid or I get the snake back and they get a full refund.

Yeah so long as they call you within 5 minutes of it arriving and as long as you trust and believe their vet. But if they don't call you on time and if the vet doesn't meet whatever standards you have than the buyer will not get a full refund. You made that very clear throughout this thread. Not only did you call David into question trying to say that he switched snakes on you, then you called his vets into question saying they were his buddies. You have displayed a lack of customer service and a pure unwillingness to display any kind of professionalism. I hope that people do think twice before buying from you. I am certain you have nice animals and are great with people when things are going 100% right but it seems as soon as anything goes wrong you turn into a "not my fault and not my problem, has to be the buyer" kind of guy.

 

[MikeCurtin]

I met this buyer in person. I could tell from his demeanor that he would be more of a headache than he was worth. In retrospect, it may have been worth it to have him get a necropsy prior to a refund, however, considering the actual wad of bills he had given me was still in hand, I felt it would be much easier on my own peace of mind to refund him and move on. With a necropsy, I'd still have the cash, but I'd have had about a week or 2's worth of headaches on top of it.

In the future, if/when I do require a necropsy prior to a refund, I will pay the fee if there was an existing condition. The lab costs incurred by David stem directly from you shipping him a snake that had at least 2 infections, and was, in fact, unhealthy. Am I wrong here?

 

[Yaz23]

I dont need to be told the animal is fine right when it arrives I just want to make sure the snake arrived ok. The buyer can call me anytime that day if there seems to be an issue with the snake. If its days later I am just questionable if its something the buyer did.

By the way I never said which snakes I was planning on giving away for free. There you go again putting words in my mouth. Where did I say that? Point it out to me. Where did I also state free hotels? Get a life and stop making up things and saying I said them. Im guessing you have imaginary friends as well?

 

[Yaz23]

Yes you are correct Mike.

 

[jim1970]

Yaz, have you told the other people that have got snakes from you there might be a problem.

 

[rjarosek]

For the ones who are local or planning to come to Florida for vacation this summer, stop by Orlando for free drinks on me! I have tons of VIP capability too so I will make it worth your time! Maybe some free theme park tickets? I'll make it happen!

I never said hotel. I said Disney World. Just like you did. Its OK if its not the boas you were talking about. I told you from the beginning I would NEVER want an animal from you. The free stuff sure why not.

Make it happen big guy.

 

[rjarosek]

Im guessing you have imaginary friends as well?

Just like your imaginary boa babies.

 

[rjarosek]

I never said hotel. .

I guess I did...

Ok two out of three pathetic attempts to save your rep. I apologize

 

[garweft]

If your that absorbed to keeping a good rep to give refunds out so the buyer can 'be happy' even though you are saying you KNEW the buyer killed the snake I think that is overboard. But hey thats your business and not mine. Am I right? This is how I work, I dont give FULL refunds until its shown that it was prior to shipping. I'd still give a refund regardless but not a full one. If the snake arrives dead the buyer will be refunded in full, if it arrives sick then the vet costs will be paid or I get the snake back and they get a full refund.

Or are you going to say it's not your fault. The carrier must have dropped it or something and you can't be out $xxxx and the snake. Are you going to require a signed deposition from everyone who touched that box and video evidence verifying they didn't drop it?

Obviously you care more about money and being right, not so much on your reputation and doing what's right.