Info Ashley Caspillo-SakaraGT4/Sakara *Possible Buyer Beware!*

[Drew Zaun]

We've discussed in this thread that previous studies have shown that the possible asymptomatic carrier rate in boas may be as high as 33%.

We've also discussed where researchers have enlightened us to the fact that many supposedly "clean" boas submitted for research ended up testing positive, and that they really have no idea just how high the asymptomatic carrier rate may be.

Those two revelations would indicate that anyone with, for example, 10 boas in their collection has a good chance of having at least one, possible even three carriers....and any death in such a large collection should be followed up by the appropriate testing. Right?

I would hope so, however if I were a betting man I would lay odds that testing is the minority response.

Now, let's step back a bit and get this out of the way - I'm not defending Ashley. There is a moral issue to what she did - an immoral issue to be exact. The sheer amount of lies and BS speaks for itself.............

I am certainly not defending her actions either, and I think aside from the information about IBD contained in this thread, that an equal value to herpetoculturists is that Ashley has laid out the quintessential blueprint of what not to do.

So while the Caspillos did something that should definitely be discussed, and while their collection should be considered contaminated, at what point does the "community" while keeping the heat on the Caspillos, also focus on the real issue - the complete and utter lack of response from the big boid boys?

This raises a completely larger issue doesn't it. I think most people would agree that the leaders of any industry should lead the field in research, but the question is do they have more responsibility than everyone else? I am not sure I wish to get into that issue just yet, but I would say in my opinion this thread has the opportunity to discuss much more than Ashely Caspillo.

What has been outlined here is very grim - a disease that can lie dormant in one animal for a lifetime. A disease that while carried by one asymptomatic snake, can infect an entire collection. A disease that cannot apparently be excluded positively by any test known to science and a disease that some feel may infect at least one third of all boas.

Here is where the needle on my BS detector swings into the red zone. It is unfortunately a common response, when faced with a mostly unknown disease, to react with paranoia. I would postulate that if the disease is that prevalent, then there must be a reason why it affects some collections and not others, and that perhaps it is not as bad in the large scale as it appears. There is simply too much not known at this time. That is why it is my opinion that we need to temper our responses to potential outbreaks and focus our attentions on the research. While we are laser focused on Ashely the real threat might be sneaking up behind us, as I infer from your post.

Again, by all means, keep the Caspillos on page one. By all means do whatever you feel you need to do to keep irresponsible people out of the community..........

Keep her on page one for sure...not sure I endorse the second sentence though.

I ask you - what is the difference between Ashley and the big box breeder who, according to researchers, probably has at least one asymptomatic carrier in their group and refuses to acknowledge there could even be an issue? A person who refuses to admit that a boa could be a carrier, infect other snakes and yet never display a symptom?

Well aside from some of the annoying "look at me" antics that have ticked so many people off - the potential affect on your collection could be the same.

Off the top of my head I would say that the big box breeder and the importers have a much greater chance to infect collections. Not only are they wider reaching in their business projects, but many are also firmly entrenched in the community and trusted absolutely. People like Ashely are, in my opinion, not that big of a threat. She is small scale and too stupid to get very far. In fact she has already marginalized herself within the community.

More importantly, at what point do you start looking at every boa breeder who enters a reptile show as a potential threat to the health of every other boid there? Is the community going to give them a pass just because of the institutionalized disinformation out there? Or is the community going to lump everyone in the same boat?

Disinformation cuts both ways. There are already people wondering if by Ashely merely showing up at a place like NARBC that she is bringing the virus with her and could pass it to someone else who is just walking around. Your questions unfortunately can only be answered by research, and I am not sure when the science will progress far enough to provide those answers.

Here's the irony. Think about it, there are some people reading this thread who have large boa collections, people who may agree with keeping Ashley out of Reptile Expos and who are going to "stand up and make a difference" - however these are people who statistically already could have an asymptomatic carrier in their collection.

Indeed.

 

[amercnwmn]

I
Off the top of my head I would say that the big box breeder and the importers have a much greater chance to infect collections. Not only are they wider reaching in their business projects, but many are also firmly entrenched in the community and trusted absolutely. People like Ashely are, in my opinion, not that big of a threat. She is small scale and too stupid to get very far. In fact she has already marginalized herself within the community.

All good points.
However I did want to argue. When Ashley first joined the forums in mid-late 2008, she was keeping like 1-2 snakes.

In a short amount of time she went from a small collection to 200+ snakes in room contact with a snake testing positive for IBD.

That's pretty far reaching if even HALF of those snakes belonged to other people.

IBD is a disease, and until research proves it to be non-communicable, it should be considered highly contagious. Better to err on the side of caution.
Ashley knew enough about IBD to assume it was contagious and still decided to sell/breed/lie. She chose to "run with the big boys" and says herself here she wanted to prove herself as a big name. She just didn't want to put in the patience and diligence to do it right.

The really bad part, because of her countless inane forum posts which led to the accumulation of large post counts, reputation points and online buddies, she managed to con a lot of people into thinking she was knowledgeable.

What is the saying? "Repetition breeds familiarity"?

People were used to seeing her online, saw her increasing collection and ASSUMED she was knowledgable. Some people could see through it, others that have been around for a long time and seen people JUST like Ashley were swindled, and those that are very new to the hobby, Elizabeth & Rachel were taken in by her BS.

Ashley herself described herself as a "responsible and reputable keeper with the backing of specific high-ranking, professional herpers in Texas" (whom shall remain nameless)
I can't tell you the number of times she name-dropped, and used other people's knowledge as her own.

Because of her frequency on the forums, familiarity, large collection and name dropping, people had a hard time seeing she was nothing more than a regurger of information, and did not possess the common knowledge or ethics one looks for in a fellow hobbyist.

 

[Drew Zaun]

In a short amount of time she went from a small collection to 200+ snakes in room contact with a snake testing positive for IBD.

That's pretty far reaching if even HALF of those snakes belonged to other people.

Indeed, she may be small scale compared to some, but if her claims are true she larger scale than many others.

People were used to seeing her online, saw her increasing collection and ASSUMED she was knowledgable. Some people could see through it, others that have been around for a long time and seen people JUST like Ashley were swindled, and those that are very new to the hobby, Elizabeth & Rachel were taken in by her BS.

Your points are well taken, but I do want to highlight the above quote just to further illustrate my POV with these last few posts.
This entire situation has been created, exploded and nurtured on assumptions.
First, Ashely assumed she knew what she was doing.
Next, her friends and clients assumed she was safe.
Now here we are making similar assumptions, albiet in a different direction.

The common thread here is assuming things not known, and the problems caused by assumptions are not limited to this thread.

What makes an assumption good or bad? If I may butcher Schrodinger's cat (no pun intended), you can not know until you open the box and find out.

The best course of action then, is to take no action based on assumptions, since you can not know if your assumption is correct until long after your action has occurred.

At least that is how I see it

Ashley herself described herself as a "responsible and reputable keeper with the backing of specific high-ranking, professional herpers in Texas" (whom shall remain nameless)
I can't tell you the number of times she name-dropped, and used other people's knowledge as her own.

Because of her frequency on the forums, familiarity, large collection and name dropping, people had a hard time seeing she was nothing more than a regurger of information, and did not possess the common knowledge or ethics one looks for in a fellow hobbyist.[/QUOTE]

 

[Drew Zaun]

Sorry for the confusion...please disregard everything after the "" in my last post. Those are Courtney's words that I failed to edit out...

 

[LD50_Junkie]

The best course of action then, is to take no action based on assumptions, since you can not know if your assumption is correct until long after your action has occurred.

There are three possible outcomes.

1) The disease IS there, and it has the potential to spread. But she miraculously practices adequate QT and so the spread is limited to those who are already infected

2) The disease IS there, and it has the potential to spread. She continues with her ways: slithers around in the grass with her snakes for photo shoots, continues to take her snakes to PetCo for educational purposes, and continues to expose her friends when they come over and help with husbandry. And so this disease IS spread, and we can only, in the clarity of retrospective vision, look back and kick our selves in the collective ass.

3) Miraculously the snakes are clean.

Situation (3) is almost entirely improbable. Situation (1) is now the defacto best-case scenario. While, with situation (2) being the very worst.

I, personally, subscribe to the ideology that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I also believe that in many cases the ends justify the means (with very few exceptions). However, I do not fully believe that her animals need to all be euthanized, as I'd like to think that if they are kept in strict QT that they can be given good lives with only those manifesting symptoms being put-down. Then again, that's under ideal QT. Laboratory-grade QT. And so I ask myself what are the chances that she'll be able to provide extensive and EXPENSIVE quarantine procedures that a novice "breeder" wouldn't have the knowledge of or the financial ability to even implement?

 

[reticguy76]

i agree that euthanizing all her animals is not a rational decision and action, so long as the animals are asymptomatic. although, she should not breed/buy/sell/trade indefinately.

euthanizing asymptomatic and clinically healthy animals to eliminate her collection and to test for a disease that has no 100% definitive diagnosis as of now, is just making "us" as people feel better. the animals (assuming she practices the nothing in/nothing out protocol that should be used at this time) deserve to live a clinically "healthy" and asymptomatic life as possible, until they become as such, then at the time they die or need to be euthanized, testing should be performed

 

[amercnwmn]

Why are we arguing this???
Is there a point, or am I missing it??

 

[texasrock]

WOW.

Four hours of reading!

I am in no way defending or supporting the content of this thread.

However, if this was my collection and given the necro reports, deaths and infestations, I'd euthanize every snake. Plain and simple. As horrible as it would be to kill my beloved animals, I'd feel worse if I were to infect someone else's collection.

 

[reticguy76]

its definately an option, but i guess a question would be, what will be accompished by euthanizing all the animals. if no further animals come in or go out, and animals that have already been in contact in any way are already exposed and at risk, i would see very little purpose to euthanize otherwise clinically healthy and asymptomatic animals.

its not a wrong decision, but seems somewhat of a rash decision.

i guess the only real potential reasoning to up and destroy a whole exposed collection would be that being of unknown transmission methods/routes, it would be tough to go to shows, stores, other peoples houses that have boidae snakes and handle them

 

[Drew Zaun]

I, personally, subscribe to the ideology that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I also believe that in many cases the ends justify the means (with very few exceptions). However, I do not fully believe that her animals need to all be euthanized, as I'd like to think that if they are kept in strict QT that they can be given good lives with only those manifesting symptoms being put-down. Then again, that's under ideal QT. Laboratory-grade QT. And so I ask myself what are the chances that she'll be able to provide extensive and EXPENSIVE quarantine procedures that a novice "breeder" wouldn't have the knowledge of or the financial ability to even implement?

Ok, so do you care to expand on this? If Ashley cannot demonstrate QT to your satisfaction, to what means are you willing to go (or advocate) in order to achieve your desired ends?

 

[amercnwmn]

As far as speculating on how she SHOULD have done her quarantine, it's pointless now, as she didn't do it.

 

[KelliH]

WOW.

Four hours of reading!

I am in no way defending or supporting the content of this thread.

However, if this was my collection and given the necro reports, deaths and infestations, I'd euthanize every snake. Plain and simple. As horrible as it would be to kill my beloved animals, I'd feel worse if I were to infect someone else's collection.

I have to agree with you, I would euthanize everything.

 

[amercnwmn]

Ok, so do you care to expand on this? If Ashley cannot demonstrate QT to your satisfaction, to what means are you willing to go (or advocate) in order to achieve your desired ends?

Can't answer for Garrett, but I'd start a thread to expose the issue and warn others NOT to buy from her, and hope the word gets out. Hope that vendors and promoters at local shows would not allow her to buy/sell/trade snakes at any shows, and carefully watch to make sure she wasn't trying to sell on the grounds. Hope that local herpers would keep an eye out on her, and any local advertising outlets to make sure she wasn't selling. Keep this thread open in hopes that pressure put on her, or others with snakes purchased from her, would see it, take precautions, have testing done, and share the results.

 

[LD50_Junkie]

Ok, so do you care to expand on this? If Ashley cannot demonstrate QT to your satisfaction, to what means are you willing to go (or advocate) in order to achieve your desired ends?

All animals euthanized. The ends (containment) justify the means (depopulation) within reason of 1) tests available at this point in time, and 2) the quality of QT she can reasonably implement.

I believe Dr. Jacobson should be contacted on her part about the proper course of actions. And this time truthfully.

 

[Drew Zaun]

And if she does not agree?

 

[LD50_Junkie]

And if she does not agree?

She should, if she wants to save face. This is about fallout management. If we, as a community, want a certain action performed, then it stands to reason that if she wants to remain part of said community then she should abide by our collective decisions.

Nevertheless, she needs to email Dr. Jacobson--truthfully this time--posting both her email and his response.

I already know that he cannot take the snakes alive, as he has no ability to care for them husbandry-wise.

 

[LD50_Junkie]

This thread is, in large part, a story about lies, incompetence and fraud.

Therefore complete transparency is key for any reconciliation.

Who knows, Dr. Jacobson may give her guidelines and "tools" (defined however) to effectively QT her animals--and only asking that as animals succumb to IBD that she sends the bodies to his lab to continue his research.

 

[texasrock]

I agree with LD50 (Mudvayne rules by the way) on the "All animals euthanized" part. His references to containment and depopulation are spot on.

The only reason I said to euthanize everything is the fact that nobody knows what's going on behind this BOI. For instance, local buyers .. or .. friends coming over and they unknowingly take home something that could potentially kill their own animals .. or .. simply the truth about what's going on.

It would be a HUGE step in the right direction for Ashley to euthanize all her snakes. It would offer some proof that she does care about her animals and the welfare of the animals she sells, trades, buys, breeds, etc.... So far she hasn't done much to make the situation better, this would be a start.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

i guess the only real potential reasoning to up and destroy a whole exposed collection would be that being of unknown transmission methods/routes, it would be tough to go to shows, stores, other peoples houses that have boidae snakes and handle them

This right here IS the reason that the most logical and responsible route would be to euthanize her collection. IBD is highly thought to be transmitted via airborne routes and microscopic particles being carried on inanimate objects. Transmission by contact, shared fluids, shared husbandry, etc. is assumed and highly likely as well. Inclusion bodies were found in one animal at minimum, and multiple others have died of the same exact symptoms. Thus this should lead any reasonable person to believe that her collection is in fact infected. Now let me ask you this -- if you also owned and bred boids, would you be comfortable with someone like this attending reptile shows, handling other peoples' animals at said shows, handling animals at other peoples' homes, etc? Even with the risk that the remaining living disease-carrying animals at her home very well could be shedding the virus onto Ashley herself or anyone else that comes near them -- thus spreading it further amongst the community?

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

This raises a completely larger issue doesn't it. I think most people would agree that the leaders of any industry should lead the field in research, but the question is do they have more responsibility than everyone else?

There were some back in the day. Problem is, they've retired or died, and the new big guys are all about making that retirement money. Very few anymore care about such things.