Bad Guy Kick brothers...enough said.

[Lucille]

I'm from N.Y. originally and I can tell you that there is just as many people keeping venomous snakes there than any of the states where its legal.

I've never heard that, please cite your authority for your claim.

It's against the law,but your never going to be able to stop people from owning what they want.

Drug cartels agree with you wholeheartedly there.

As for the Kick Bro's I never dealt with them,but I heard nothing but bad stories over the last 10 years or so.

The purpose of the BOI is so that people can come forth with reports of their transactions; others can read those posts and they will hopefully serve as a guide to future transactions they might be considering. Past behavior can be a good guide to future behavior.

But I believe that each transaction is unique, and that one should think about the circumstances of the particular transaction before absolutely convicting an accused in one's mind solely on the basis of a poor track record. Once we do that, not only do we remove all incentive for improvement, but we set the stage for the possibility that a buyer bad guy will go free because it is so easy to saddle a seller bad guy with guilt.

I believe that if one sets out the facts, the readers here are quite capable of making good judgments for themselves.

 

[LarryGrant]

On topic again.

I just got a male albino and 2 (supposed) 100% het 900 gram females from Fred.

I contacted Fred and put a deposit on the animals and needed him to hold them for warmer weather and also needed to have a rack built as AP was backed up for about 4 weeks. This all happened on March 26th.

I did inform Fred about the backup with AP and he said not a problem. Well AP came thru with flying colors as I called them and asked if at all possible could I get the rack done by april 8th as there is a show in Des Moines I was going to go to and could pick it up then and they said yes. I called Fred and asked if I could ship that thursday for friday delivery as weather was good HE did not want to ship till monday for tuesday in case of shipping problems and having the animales held till monday on a dock (understandable). So I pay the balance due on the animals and say ship monday for tuesday.

I call him Monday 3 times before he answered his phone and ask if we are still on for shipping and he says "what animals did you buy? and you want them shipped today?" He did get them shipped and did call me with a tracking number that night.

Tuesday the package shows up and everything was great with packageing and heat but the 900 gram females have gone on a diet and lost 300 grams each. I try feeding them no go. Next week again no go. I call Fred and ask what he was feeding them as there was supposed to be feed cards that said when they ate and what they were eating. There were cards that said when they ate but not WHAT they ate. He was not near as nice when I called to ask questions as he was when I called to pay him money.

I have now gotten the male to eat 2 weeks in a row and 1 female to eat 1 time she refused this week and the other female has not eaten yet.

Did I call him on the females NO as I then found this BOI and figured what was the point dealing with it. I will just have to wait for next year to breed them instead of this year.

Will I do any further dealings with him NO. Lie to me once shame on you...lie to me twice shame on me.

Take it for what its worth.

Larry Grant

 

[LarryGrant]

Correction the show was APRIL 3rd NOT the 8th

 

[bullies&balls]

question for all the people getting on the OP about harboring illegal animals. Don't the kick's live and have their business in NY ? If so, why isn't anyone slamming them for having the monitors/lizards in the first place ?

Is the law for all of NY state or certain burrows (sp) ?

 

[Lucille]

Bob the law I cited is for NYC, I do not believe the state has an identical statute.

NYC Health Code
§ 161.01. Wild animals prohibited.

 

[FRED KICK]

This is Fred, I was not notified about this post by any one on fauna. One of my employees came this post. Actually I have only been notified about one post on this site a few years ago. I do not get to defend my side of the story, because I am not notified. As for Brandon Perez.

1. The frogs. He only asked if they were real pixie frogs. He never specified if he was looking for dwarfs or giants. He only asked if they were pixies. They are indeed pixies as he posted. Seeing that they are not pacmans, or budgetts or any other king of frog his question was answered based on what he asked.

2. He emailed about his tegu and got a response from me. He never called myself or my store with questions. After he received his response he did not inquire about his current tegu. He did asked if I have blue tegus for sale. See emails below.

Re: blue tegu
...
From:
"[email protected]" <[email protected]>
...
Add to Contacts
To: [email protected]
oh okay, well let me know if he's still available after the show because unfortunately i cant make that show.
I wanted to trade my juvi blue tegu and money for that one, let me know if anything

- Brandon Perez


-----Original Message-----
From: Fred kick <[email protected]>
To: przprettyboyx13 <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, Apr 29, 2011 2:20 pm
Subject: Re: blue tegu

I have one available, he is going to the hamburg expo tomorrow

From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, April 29, 2011 2:02:53 PM
Subject: blue tegu

hey, i wanted to know if you guys have any blue tegu adults available ?

Re:
...
From:
Fred kick <[email protected]> [Chat now]
...
Add to Contacts
To: [email protected]
We rarely use chicken here.
Have you tried feeding her anything else? You can try hard boiled eggs, preferably quail, fresh killed mice, rats, or gerbils. Once in a while canned dog food but use sparingly. Fresh seafood, salmon, snails, raw shrimp, just make sure they are not packaged with salt to keep them preserved. As tegus mature they skin around their lower jaw bulges, not necessarily a sag but it looks almost like fat rolls. We did not breed the female that you purchased.


From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, April 20, 2011 10:45:01 PM
Subject:

Hey, this is the guy who bought the adult female tegu from you in the white plains expo.
i have a few questions about her. Why does she have so much saggy skin ? before you sold her to me, did she recently give birth ? i tried to feed her several times chicken but all she does is drink water and walk around. I'm very concerned in her health. Hope to hear from you soon.

- Brandon Perez

 

[FRED KICK]

As far as Larry Grant.
1. My feeding charts are simple. I put a date and a letter after.
R = rat, m = mouse, g= gerbil, fr=frozen rat, fm=frozen mouse, etc. Now if the snake eats rats every time I will only put the date and not the letter. Now if they change what they are eating I will change the letter with the date.
Example:
2/6m
2/12 ate a mouse, based on what he has currently been eating
2/20R now the letter changed because he is eating rats

2. Your deposit was placed on March 12th, not March 26th. I can show your credit card statements if needed. As far as not knowing who you were when you called, after not speaking to you for 3 weeks I did not recognize your phone number. My apologies for that, but I do receive many phone calls in a three week period.

3. Shipping on a Thursday. I do not like to ship for Friday delivery, if something happens at the shipping facility such as misplacement, bad weather etc, I have had snakes sit all weekend while they try to sort the mess out. Shipping companies do not want to work extra on the weekend, they want to go home and have a life. They do not want to work overtime searching for a missing package.

4. You did not purchase 900 gram females. You purchased 600-700 gram females. You spent $875. This was spent on one male albino, two 600-700 gram females and shipping.
I cannot name one breeder that would sell such large females and male for this amount of money, unless someone is selling their collection or need fast cash. Attached below are the emails I received from you, and my price list at the time. You can check the prices.
600 gram female $250 + 600 gram female $250 + 2010 male $350 = $850 + $25 shipping =$875
the 900 gram females are $450 each. That would make your purchase $1,275. Once again if needed I can attached your credit card statements to show that you spent $875.

Re: Message about: 2010 Albinos (Free Shipping)
...
From:
Fred kick <[email protected]> [Chat now]
...
Add to Contacts
To: [email protected]


Ball Python List.xls (22KB)
list attached, I still have the second male available, I have 2009 100% het albinos available also

From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat, March 12, 2011 8:28:56 AM
Subject: Message about: 2010 Albinos (Free Shipping)

*************
NOTE: This message was sent to you via the Kingsnake.com Classifieds. If you feel this message is fraudulent or abusive please forward it to [email protected].
NOTE: DO NOT flag this message as SPAM/JUNK as your ability to receive legitimate messages from Kingsnake.com Classifieds may be compromised
*************

Fred,

Is the male in the bottom photo still available? Also could you send me a list of all available? Any 100% het albino females to go with that male? Thanks, Larry Grant

----------------------------------------------
Click on (or cut and paste into you browser's
location window) the URL below to view the ad that
this message is in response to.

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?de=841011&cat=32


----------------------------------------------
This message was sent by an unregistered or non logged in user.
This person may or may not be who they say they are.
The return address they provide may or may not be their correct address.

Sent 07:28 AM, Mar 12th, 2011 from I.P. Address 75.207.85.37/37.sub-75-207-85.myvzw.com


Qty Available Adults - Breeding Size Male Female
1.0 Spider Proven Breeder $350.00 n/a
1.0 Spider 100% het Orange Ghost $650.00 n/a
1.0 Orange Ghost Adult Proven 100% het gen. stripe. $1,800.00 n/a
1.0 Orange Ghost Adult 66% het gen. stripe. $500.00 n/a
1.0 Black Pastel Proven Breeder $400.00 n/a
1.0 Albino Proven Breeder $575.00 n/a
1.0 Caramel Albino Proven Breeder $1,200.00 n/a
1.0 Orange Ghost Proven Breeder $300.00 n/a
1.0 Pastel Lesser Proven $1,000.00
1.0 Spider Paradox Proven Breeder $450.00 n/a
1.0 Super Pastel Proven $550.00 n/a
1.0 Pastel Yellowbelly Proven $450.00 n/a

Qty 2009 Available Juveniles- Well Started Male Female
0.1 Pastel Butter Genetic Stripe n/a $7,800.00
0.2 Het Orange Ghost (300-400 grams) n/a $150.00
0.2 Het Orange Ghost (450+ grams) n/a $200.00
0.3 Het Pied female 1000+ grams n/a $850.00
0.1 Het Axanthic (SK line) n/a $250.00
1.0 Mojave 100% het Orange Ghost $400.00 n/a
0.4 Het Albino (600-700 grams) n/a $250.00
0.1 Het Albino (900 grams) n/a $450.00
1.0 Pastel 100% het Albino and Genetic Stripe $2,400.00 n/a
2.0 Double het Albino and Genetic Stripe $1,600.00 n/a
1.0 Orange Ghost $250.00 n/a


Qty 2010 Available Babies - Well Started Male Female
14.0 Pastel $65.00 n/a
2.0 Black Pastel $125.00 n/a
0.2 Spider n/a $235.00
7.7 Pinstripe $215.00 $250.00
1.0 Mojave $180.00 n/a
4.0 Pastel Yellow belly 50% het albino $350.00 n/a
3.0 Spider Yellowbelly $550.00 n/a
1.0 Pastel Lesser $850.00 n/a
0.1 Lesser Bee n/a $1,250.00
0.6 100% het Axanthic n/a $125.00
2.2 Genetic Stripe $650.00 $700.00
0.8 Het Orange Ghost n/a $125.00
1.0 Albino $350.00 n/a
1.0 Pastel Albino $600.00 n/a
0.3 Pastel 100% het albino n/a $425.00
1.0 Pastave $800.00 n/a
1.0 Black Pastel Mojave Ghost $7,500.00 n/a
1.0 Mojave Ghost $1,100.00 n/a
2.0 Mojave 100% het Orange Ghost $350.00 n/a
1.1 Black Pastel Orange Ghost $1,000.00 $1,250.00
1.1 Pewter Ghost $3,800.00 $3,800.00
1.0 Pewter het Ghost $1,500.00 n/a
3.0 Pastel 100% het Orange Ghost $150.00 n/a
4.2 Spider 100% het Orange Ghost $425.00 $475.00
1.0 Spider 66% het orange ghost $200.00 n/a
1.2 Pastel Carmels (Perfect) $2,500.00 $2,300.00
3.1 Pastel 66% het Caramel $150.00 $250.00
0.1 Pastel Genetic Stripe n/a $1,350.00
2.2 Super Pastel Het Genetic Stripe $1,000.00 $1,000.00
1.1 Orange Ghost Genetic Stripe $4,800.00 $4,000.00
0.3 Orange Ghost 100% het Genetic Stripe n/a $800.00
0.2 Genetic Stripe 100% het Orange Ghost n/a $1,400.00
2.0 DH Orange Ghost and Genetic Stripe $400.00 n/a
0.1 66% DH Albino and Genetic Stripe n/a $400.00
3.0 Spider het Genetic Stripe $750.00 n/a
0.1 Pastel Pied n/a $4,000.00
1.0 Pastel Het Pied $500.00 n/a

 

[Lucille]

This is Fred, I was not notified about this post by any one on fauna.

It's good you posted your side. Many times readers or staff will try to notify, but it is a courtesy only. Fauna has become the 'go-to' place for buyers to check out sellers, so it is a good idea to check the site regularly. If you look through the BOI by doing a search, you are mentioned in several threads, Fred, so you might want to address those issues as well.

 

[outlawtrucker]

Lucille,I'm not trying to argue with you,but I used to be one of those people who owned illegal reptiles.When you do you meet other people who do.Thats how you learn that a lot of people are doing it.As for the drug cartels go your probably right,if there was no demand we would not have that problem.But I think drugs hurt all layers of society.I don't think a responsible keeper owning some illegal reptiles is hurting everybody.It's true that escapes and the negative press can hurt our hobby,but that happens all the time when legal stuff escapes.The press is wired one way when it comes to any subject and I don't think we can change them or what they say.

 

[Lucille]

I'm not going to repost the list of critters and prices from Fred's post but to me, anyone who posts in that manner is engaging in crass advertising.

Lucille,I'm not trying to argue with you,but .

Cute and careful

 

[Dennis Hultman]

This is Fred, I was not notified about this post by any one on fauna. One of my employees came this post. Actually I have only been notified about one post on this site a few years ago. I do not get to defend my side of the story, because I am not notified. As for Brandon Perez.

1. The frogs. He only asked if they were real pixie frogs. He never specified if he was looking for dwarfs or giants. He only asked if they were pixies. They are indeed pixies as he posted. Seeing that they are not pacmans, or budgetts or any other king of frog his question was answered based on what he asked.

2. He emailed about his tegu and got a response from me. He never called myself or my store with questions. After he received his response he did not inquire about his current tegu. He did asked if I have blue tegus for sale. See emails below.

Re: blue tegu
...
From:
"[email protected]" <[email protected]>
...
Add to Contacts
To: [email protected]
oh okay, well let me know if he's still available after the show because unfortunately i cant make that show.
I wanted to trade my juvi blue tegu and money for that one, let me know if anything

- Brandon Perez


-----Original Message-----
From: Fred kick <[email protected]>
To: przprettyboyx13 <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, Apr 29, 2011 2:20 pm
Subject: Re: blue tegu

I have one available, he is going to the hamburg expo tomorrow

From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, April 29, 2011 2:02:53 PM
Subject: blue tegu

hey, i wanted to know if you guys have any blue tegu adults available ?

Re:
...
From:
Fred kick <[email protected]> [Chat now]
...
Add to Contacts
To: [email protected]
We rarely use chicken here.
Have you tried feeding her anything else? You can try hard boiled eggs, preferably quail, fresh killed mice, rats, or gerbils. Once in a while canned dog food but use sparingly. Fresh seafood, salmon, snails, raw shrimp, just make sure they are not packaged with salt to keep them preserved. As tegus mature they skin around their lower jaw bulges, not necessarily a sag but it looks almost like fat rolls. We did not breed the female that you purchased.


From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, April 20, 2011 10:45:01 PM
Subject:

Hey, this is the guy who bought the adult female tegu from you in the white plains expo.
i have a few questions about her. Why does she have so much saggy skin ? before you sold her to me, did she recently give birth ? i tried to feed her several times chicken but all she does is drink water and walk around. I'm very concerned in her health. Hope to hear from you soon.

- Brandon Perez

So Brandon, you started this thread on 4/29 stating the Kick Brothers are the worst of the worst yet those emails state you were trying to buy from him the very day you posted this thread. What's up with that?

 

[LarryGrant]

Fred,

I stated that I did get the feeding cards I DO now see a few "F" and a few "R" on a couple of dates but none one the male albino which you state should be on rats then...well he is eating MICE.

The "List" you said you sent me I also called you and said my MAC would not allow me to open the file and I was going to buy the 600 gram females then YOU said they sold, then told me you had some 900 gram females you would sell me at the same price. I do understand I spent 875.00. Guess you remember It one way and me another.

I also stated that I DID understand why you did not ship on thursday for friday.

Larry Grant

 

[scaledverts]

1. The frogs. He only asked if they were real pixie frogs. He never specified if he was looking for dwarfs or giants. He only asked if they were pixies. They are indeed pixies as he posted. Seeing that they are not pacmans, or budgetts or any other king of frog his question was answered based on what he asked.

I'm going to go ahead and call B.S. on this! If that is how you conduct business, that's crap! What else could he have been asking about? I haven't seen any pixie hybrids!

 

[Iloverhacs]

I'm going to go ahead and call B.S. on this! If that is how you conduct business, that's crap! What else could he have been asking about? I haven't seen any pixie hybrids!

I think where fred is coming from is that not every customer is informed on reptiles. I have been to expos and watched vendors struggle with customers that don't no the difference between a leopard gecko and a crested gecko. Let alone the difference in care diet and husbandry. Most people on this website are knowledgeable, but a lot of beginners have no clue, or are just learning. its not a beginners fault, but how you ask the question makes all the difference. Expos are great for the reptile community, but depending on the expo sometimes its so busy customers do not have time to ask venders all of their questions. And having experience in retail I know that it is not possible to fully help every customer. The first time you meet someone you have no idea how experienced or inexperienced they are. You only know what they tell you about their experiences. Its very easy to not give enough help, and just as easy to offend someone with experience but over explaining basic knowledge they already know.

Just my two cents, it doesn't sound like the buyer asked the right questions.

 

[farfrumugen]

i have bought and traded with the both kick brothers and their father before them. all of the snakes that i have gotten have been good eaters and in good health. i have been in the retail store many times and it isnt ever any worse or any better condition than any other average pet store. they are a very busy store and they are hard to reach at times. customer service is lacking but again it goes back to customer volume. ive never bought any wc animal from them but the tegu in question is almost certainly a wc animal. if you dont have experience with wc then problems will arise.
this thread should have been a info thread not a bad guy post.
adam jeffery

 

[scaledverts]

I think where fred is coming from is that not every customer is informed on reptiles. I have been to expos and watched vendors struggle with customers that don't no the difference between a leopard gecko and a crested gecko. Let alone the difference in care diet and husbandry. Most people on this website are knowledgeable, but a lot of beginners have no clue, or are just learning. its not a beginners fault, but how you ask the question makes all the difference. Expos are great for the reptile community, but depending on the expo sometimes its so busy customers do not have time to ask venders all of their questions. And having experience in retail I know that it is not possible to fully help every customer. The first time you meet someone you have no idea how experienced or inexperienced they are. You only know what they tell you about their experiences. Its very easy to not give enough help, and just as easy to offend someone with experience but over explaining basic knowledge they already know.

Just my two cents, it doesn't sound like the buyer asked the right questions.

Sure, people new to the hobby may not know the right questions to ask. However, in this instance it should not have been an issue. The fact that there are TWO species of pixie frogs means that it should have been labeled correctly and fully. Independent of the buyers level of experience, it is the sellers responsibility to label their animals correctly.

I too have vended many shows, and to say that you cannot fully help every customer is a cop out. If your table is THAT busy, you should bring more help. In my opinion, it is the sellers responsibility to make sure the customer knows what they are buying.

There are plenty of issues with the OP also so there are issues on both sides here in my opinion.

 

[ReptileJay]

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106387&highlight=Reptile+Addicts

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217707&highlight=Reptile+Addicts

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83419&highlight=Reptile+Addicts

I know some of these are older, but these guys have not changed over the years.

There have been a number of issues with them (including ones of my own) that have never been, and likely never will be resolved.

Improper labeling does not allow for a "free pass" when dealing with a customer that may not know everything there is to know about the animal they may be interested in purchasing. I agree with what Kyle is saying regarding labeling being the seller's responsibility. However, with these guys, (based on my own experience) it wouldn't surprise me if they intentionally gave false information simply to make a sale they otherwise would not have been able to make.

 

[alee]

Brandon- Shady? You were the one that wanted me to meet you at the show to buy your red tegu in February, even after I questioned you about the show rules, you insisted that it was fine, not a problem. Then, you stood me up and never showed up! You had my phone number etc. but did not even have the class to call. I stood there like a dork for an hour. Yes, I know serves me right. Two months later I responded to another one of your adds only to get some shady excuse why you were selling the tegu and when I realized that you were the same person who stood me up from before you gave me another shady reason for not showing. Boy oh boy, how does it feel? Takes one to know one yes?
-Bruce Ludovicy (Amy Lee's husband)

 

[dzoo]

Kick's and Reptile Shows

I too have vended many shows, and to say that you cannot fully help every customer is a cop out. If your table is THAT busy, you should bring more help. In my opinion, it is the sellers responsibility to make sure the customer knows what they are buying.

I have seen the Kick Bros. at every Hamburg show I have been to for the last 15 years, they must be doing something right to stay in the biz that long.

That being said - First, when I go to a show to purchase a reptile and see a vendor that has every type of reptile under the sun, wild caught, captive bred, $2 geckos to $1000 balls, they must have AT LEAST 50 - 100 species/varieties on their tables, If I am looking for something special or high quality I walk on by because they are obviously wholesalers or dealers, they buy in lots of WC animals or whatever they can get a good deal on and "flip" it as fast as possible to make money - I would not expect them to personally know the history or feeding habits of every animal in their possesion - I am sure they do not personally care for them, they have employees for that. But I guess "newbies" see all those different reptiles in one spot and think "man these guys must be reptile gods they have so much stuff!".... If you truly want personal service and a guarantee of a high quaity animal look for a private breeder or hobbyist that specializes in just that species or a few at the most. If I did buy something from a dealer like the Kick's I would not expect any type of guarantees or service after the sale, you get what you pay for - you go to a show, get a cheap price and the trade off is a lack of service and guarantees like you might get paying full retail prices at a pet store.


Second - I totally disagree with the quote above - If you go to a show YOU should have done your homework beforehand and know everything you need to know before even thinking about aquiring the animal. Nobody should purchase a species they are not familiar with on impulse or just based on the dealers word. Asking the vendor to tell you everything you need to know is just ridiculous - they don't have the time to spend with each customer and they are there to sell reptiles and make money they can't afford to bring a big staff with them to have a long convo with each buyer and say in the case of the pyxie frogs they might be clearing $2- $3 profit per frog, how much time do you expect them to spend with you? The vendor has to pay the cost of the tables ($75 ea. looks like they have about 6?) gas for a big van to and from Lockport NY, a couple employees at ? $8-10 per hour ( and i assume they would have to be paid for time to prep everything for the show and travel time etc.) ? Maybe a hotel for the night before, food etc. they need to sell a lot of volume to make it worthwhile...... If you were at a private pet store paying retail price for the frog, and buying all the supplies with it, then yes I would expect the seller to spend some time making the sale..but even in that situation the buyer should have educated himself on the animal before purchasing, the pimply faced kid at Petco may or may not know what he is talking about...

 

[Southern Wolf]

3. Shipping on a Thursday. I do not like to ship for Friday delivery, if something happens at the shipping facility such as misplacement, bad weather etc,

I only shipped Monday thru Wednesday for this very reason. You never knew when or if a shipping company was gonna mess something up and I'd rather have the animal delivered 1 day late vs 3 days late. At least then it has a chance.