Info Craig Hughes (twohy4you)

[radera5]

I know you think so, and I feel sorry for you.

I am just repeating myself and am sorry for that so I will leave it with this......and unlike others in the history of the BOI, when I say I am done here, I actually mean it.

This was a breeding loan between friends. Would Craig have made out like a bandit here? ABSOLUTELY!!! And Abby would have came out a real winner. She not only would have had a few Huffmans but she would have had a friend for life. She would have been a true friend who didn't think about herself and jumped at the chance of helping someone out. The kind of friend we all want and, I believe most, want to be.

Instead, greed set in. This wasn't about helping a friend, it became about getting hers. It was no longer about friendship but what she considered fair. In the end, the clutch was still split but not before everyone got to see her whine, and continue to whine, like a child who's younger sibling received an additional present under the Christmas tree.

Abby could have come out of this shining. A model of behavior to this community which everyday seems to need more of. Instead.......well here we are.

Hey Bart, so glad you spoke up! I feel sorry that you think "Craig's normal female" was the key here.....or mattered at all gene wise.

Everything else you went on about is your opinion of a person not the deal, so I don't even care. Trying to say she is greedy when SHE owns the Huffs is just funny to me. She could produce more this year, next year, hell as many years from now as you can think of. That whole "story" of yours just isn't working.

Lastly I am reading that there is NO real count on the Huffs as of yet. Also I think Abby said she would give him 2 along time ago.

Anyway since you wont be posting again, have a nice day Bart

 

[Quiet Tempest]

Maybe it's just me but discounting the female in question as basically worthless rubs me the wrong way. Breeding takes a toll. It's the female doing the brunt of the work and she takes on more risk in the endeavor regardless of her lineage. Without a good female there would be no healthy eggs and subsequent hatchlings.

Just wanted to stick up for all the downtrodden normal girls out there.

 

[Abby]

Maybe it's just me but discounting the female in question as basically worthless rubs me the wrong way. Breeding takes a toll. It's the female doing the brunt of the work and she takes on more risk in the endeavor regardless of her lineage. Without a good female there would be no healthy eggs and subsequent hatchlings.

Just wanted to stick up for all the downtrodden normal girls out there.

Nothing against normal females - I love my normal gals. Just saying, there is a significant difference in the two snakes. That's all!

 

[radera5]

Nothing against normal females - I love my normal gals. Just saying, there is a significant difference in the two snakes. That's all!

All I was saying as well. NEVER are they considered worthless. I had even stated many times "gene wise"......We would be no-where without normals

 

[hhmoore]

Yes, two are very dark and the other three are lighter. I am pretty sure on two of them but waiting on the last to shed. Either way, we will be working something out. He is insisting there are 5, so if there are, he will get 2.

This actually makes a world of difference, and I apologize for not catching the discrepancy in the stories earlier, Abby. In the other thread, Craig stated that all 5 babies were codoms; and I guess I entered this thread with that in my mind. If that were the case, and minus an actual agreement about the division of the offspring, I would stick with my previously stated opinions...HOWEVER, if there is a more normal trait distribution, I don't think Craig is necessarily entitled to a second Huffman based on his providing the dam. If there are 2 Huffmans, he'd be entitled to one - as it would likely be his first pick...if there are 3, then your next pick would most likely be the remaining Huff - leaving him SOL.

Not agreeing with you is not the same as not getting it, Abby. I'm quite certain that the majority of us (if not ALL of us) understand your rationale

This probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense...but I still think I understood your rationale. Now, however, your rationale makes more sense. Perhaps, because I was starting from a misunderstanding of the specifics, I didn't understand as well as I thought I did. (Unless I'm the only one that was under that false impression, I'm surprised that people weren't typing it in bolded capitals every time someone referred to the 5 Huffmans....WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP INSISTING THERE WERE 5??
I'm not ashamed to admit when I am wrong....and if the final tally is not 5 Huffmans, I was wrong in my earlier posts.

 

[radera5]

This actually makes a world of difference, and I apologize for not catching the discrepancy in the stories earlier, Abby. In the other thread, Craig stated that all 5 babies were codoms; and I guess I entered this thread with that in my mind. If that were the case, and minus an actual agreement about the division of the offspring, I would stick with my previously stated opinions...HOWEVER, if there is a more normal trait distribution, I don't think Craig is necessarily entitled to a second Huffman based on his providing the dam. If there are 2 Huffmans, he'd be entitled to one - as it would likely be his first pick...if there are 3, then your next pick would most likely be the remaining Huff - leaving him SOL.


This probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense...but I still think I understood your rationale. Now, however, your rationale makes more sense. Perhaps, because I was starting from a misunderstanding of the specifics, I didn't understand as well as I thought I did. (Unless I'm the only one that was under that false impression, I'm surprised that people weren't typing it in bolded capitals every time someone referred to the 5 Huffmans....WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP INSISTING THERE WERE 5??
I'm not ashamed to admit when I am wrong....and if the final tally is not 5 Huffmans, I was wrong in my earlier posts.

I gotcha Harold....I was a bit confused as well. I thought there were just 2 or 3 for sure. Then I thought I heard all 5 were

Either way, I don't know about right and wrong here. I feel this is more a difference of opinions. Considering things got changed from the start since the Ivory wouldn't take, I think it is now just what each party seems fair.

I guess the whole greed thing might be going to far.....In my eyes if Abby would have said "50/50 on the Huffman clutch as well" but then she decided not, I would call that greedy. This was not the case though, the problem became lack of communication, and mis-communication on an agreement for the new pairing. I don't necessarily think either party was out to rip the other off.

It sounds like Abby and Craig are taking care of this on way or the other, hopefully a friendship can be rekindled as well!

 

[radera5]

I gotcha Harold....I was a bit confused as well. I thought there were just 2 or 3 for sure. Then I thought I heard all 5 were

Either way, I don't know about right and wrong here. I feel this is more a difference of opinions. Considering things got changed from the start since the Ivory wouldn't take, I think it is now just what each party seems fair.

I guess the whole greed thing might be going to far.....In my eyes if Abby would have said "50/50 on the Huffman clutch as well" but then she decided not, I would call that greedy. This was not the case though, the problem became lack of communication, and mis-communication on an agreement for the new pairing. I don't necessarily think either party was out to rip the other off.

It sounds like Abby and Craig are taking care of this on way or the other, hopefully a friendship can be rekindled as well!

Dangit....sorry again Harald.....my computer thinks it auto corrects your name every time I write it! Please excuse this......

 

[chongorojo]

I can only give my opinion... split the clutch! Yes the male is rare... that's why first pick switched from him with his female to you with the one off male. I mean you tried to breed her to the ivory right? It didn't work then you swapped in the huffman, and then you made up your mind up about what was fair but Craig hadn't agreed to anything, his opinion should have been weighed and there should have been more concise agrements.

Split and walk away Abby, just call this one of those lessons learned the HARD way.

 

[radera5]

I agree totally here. If he had put forward a morph female or something, and combos were made, then him feeling like he should get half the clutch is justified, even with you putting more effort in...but he didn't.
He put forward a normal female, you bred your male to him as a favor knowing he had no males of his own...and he steps forward saying he should get half the clutch...
Ridiculous in my opinion.
It has nothing to do with greed...it has to do with common sense.

If I am building a house...I buy the land, the lumber, get the permits and build it myself...and you only contribute the nails...that doesn't make the house half yours.

Oh thank goodness! I was SERIOUSLY questioning if everyone was really so unreasonable!

I couldn't agree more with your "common sense" statement

 

[rabernet]

I agree totally here. If he had put forward a morph female or something, and combos were made, then him feeling like he should get half the clutch is justified, even with you putting more effort in...but he didn't.
He put forward a normal female, you bred your male to him as a favor knowing he had no males of his own...and he steps forward saying he should get half the clutch...
Ridiculous in my opinion.
It has nothing to do with greed...it has to do with common sense.

If I am building a house...I buy the land, the lumber, get the permits and build it myself...and you only contribute the nails...that doesn't make the house half yours.

Except that the original agreement was for 1/2 the clutch. It wasn't stated the split would change - nor was an agreement made on any change of split just because she chose to put another male in with the female.

It wasn't until the clutch hatched that the terms of the split changed.

Yes, she said we need to talk about the split, but never got any reply from him on that. Were it me, I would not have proceeded with the breeding until the new terms were clearly laid out and agreed to by both parties. As others have mentioned, his not replying does not imply that he has agreed to nor understood any change to the original agreement.

If I order wood countertops, and the builder puts in marble for more money without making SURE that I was ok with the change of plans AND the increase in price, he shouldn't make the change until he's 100% positive everyone is on the same page.

Everyone wants to throw around value - when the value of a friendship is priceless. It didn't COST Abby any more in regards to her time to breed the Huffman vs. the Ivory. And if she hadn't bred the Huffman to his male, she'd have produced three or five Huffmans less this year (whatever the final number ends up being) than what she produced with her other clutches. It DID benefit her to breed her Huffman to his female, regardless of how little value everyone wants to assign to the normal. Without THIS normal, THESE Huffmans wouldn't be here.

 

[RobNJ]

If I am building a house...I buy the land, the lumber, get the permits and build it myself...and you
only contribute the nails...that doesn't make the house half yours.

Most ridiculous statement in this thread yet, IMO. You're not even in the same atmosphere here drawing up comparisons like that.

As many others, I believe the original agreement should be honored because of the lack of concise communication. That's where it ends as far as I can see. The lack of communication comes into play here way before the perceived value of the snakes in question or the amount of work each party had to put in. Why was the amount of work Abby was putting in taken into account(as far as the split would go) only when the Huff sired the clutch?

Glad to see Abby is sucking it up and honoring the original agreement...

 

[radera5]

Okay so your example isn't right though....It would be like him installing marble, and charging you just the same. Seems like a deal to me.

So if Abby didn't breed her Huff to this female, she could have/would have bought a normal on her own. That's why we are talking value. If he would have provided some morph female, one that she might not be able to buy everyday then okay. But that's not the case. Her being a normal almost proves Abby was just doing this to help out a friend.

I think everyone agrees that the terms should have been talked about sooner.
This is def a learning curve for many....

 

[rabernet]

And if she hadn't bred the Huffman to his male

should be

And if she hadn't bred the Huffman to his female

 

[rabernet]

Okay so your example isn't right though....It would be like him installing marble, and charging you just the same. Seems like a deal to me.

So if Abby didn't breed her Huff to this female, she could have/would have bought a normal on her own. That's why we are talking value. If he would have provided some morph female, one that she might not be able to buy everyday then okay. But that's not the case. Her being a normal almost proves Abby was just doing this to help out a friend.

I think everyone agrees that the terms should have been talked about sooner.
This is def a learning curve for many....

But WOULD she have gone out and purchased another female if he didn't agree to the new deal and the breeding was halted? Wouldn't she have done that anyway (procured females for her Huffman), knowing that the original agreement was a YB clutch and that female wouldn't be used for Huffmans (originally)?

This was a bonus, unplanned female to put her Huffman to. Any way you slice it, they were produced in ADDITION to the ones that she had already in her breeding plans. And yes, the female contributed to the production of that clutch. Without her, there would be no bonus clutch.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

Radera5 apparently feels that a Huffman male can squeeze eggs out all on it's own.

If getting 2 of 5 snakes in the clutch is greedy, why would Abby agree to give half the clutch in the first place? When the outcome was going to be YB hatchlings, half the clutch was fine, despite the female still being "just a normal".

Only when the hatchlings were suddenly worth more MONEY was the 50/50 split suddenly not fair.

For the record, when I say he was entitled to 2 snakes, I don't mean 2 Huffmans, I mean the original agreement of half the clutch, or 2 of the 5 snakes. If all are Huffmans, it ends up as 2 Huffmans. If it had been 2 Huffmans and 3 normals, then it would have been 1 Huffman and 1 normal(assuming Abby chose, he chose, Abby chose... etc).

Since a 50/50 split was fine when it was a NORMAL female with her MORPH male, just because she switched to a different MORPH male, the agreement shouldn't have just automatically changed. I only see Abby changing the agreement once she saw higher priced hatchlings. I'd be disappointed in any 'friend' that did that to me too.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

To add to the above...

What if she had bred to the originally agreed upon sire, and instead of YB hatchlings, there were 5 brand new morphs? IF the hatchlings came out as purple-spotted new morphs, would Abby feel that only 1 baby was okay, and the original agreement didn't stand?

 

[radera5]

But WOULD she have gone out and purchased another female if he didn't agree to the new deal and the breeding was halted? Wouldn't she have done that anyway (procured females for her Huffman), knowing that the original agreement was a YB clutch and that female wouldn't be used for Huffmans (originally)?

This was a bonus, unplanned female to put her Huffman to. Any way you slice it, they were produced in ADDITION to the ones that she had already in her breeding plans. And yes, the female contributed to the production of that clutch. Without her, there would be no bonus clutch.

I would assume Abby's common sense kicked in, when the Ivory wouldn't breed....what is another good candidate? Or I guess they/she could have not bred her at all.......

That just doesn't make sense to me. I get it.....they screwed up by not making a clear deal for the new pairing. I don't get any of the rest, just because no new deal was made doesn't mean the old deal just sticks. She agreed to the Ivory because giving away half of a YB clutch is do-able. Giving away half of a Huffman clutch, to ANYONE, EVER, just for providing a normal female is a long shot. I would guess that if he came and asked her to pair his normal to her Huff the agreement would have been quite a bit different.

I guess none of this matters though

 

[bloodybaroness]

Radera5 apparently feels that a Huffman male can squeeze eggs out all on it's own.

I needed that laugh.

Back on topic, I do agree though, why should the agreement change if the morph did? You ran a morph male to a normal female, does not matter if it was a YB, Huffman, or whatever, why should the agreement change?

I'm not saying he deserves two of the Huffmans, just an even split with at least one of the confirmed visuals.

Or give him a Huffman and YB. So what if it "involves two clutches," you still get to keep the supposed Huffmans and sell them for whatever you feel like.

 

[RobNJ]

Giving away half of a Huffman clutch, to ANYONE, EVER, just for providing a normal female is a long shot. :

Again, that all depends on the owner's(of the Huffman) perceived value of the Huffman. So this again, boils down to perceived value.

 

[bloodybaroness]

Again, that all depends on the owner's(of the Huffman) perceived value of the Huffman. So this again, boils down to perceived value.

Right on.

Without that normal female these Huffmans (I hate the grammar fail with that name) would NOT EXIST!

I just don't see how changing the morph male should change anything with this deal.