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Bad Guy Nathan Tow-Arnett TERRIBLE

Nice. First, it is 'Oh you don't work with those lizards'. Then, it's 'Well you didn't read everything'. You must have excuses on speed dial :rolleyes:

I agree.

You owe this man a refund. 2 day shipping on a live animal in 40*f temps is NOT UNACCEPTABLE. Period.

Stop the deflection, dodging, name dropping, chest puffing, waffling crap and give him a refund.

Refund him and save face.
 
I agree.

You owe this man a refund. 2 day shipping on a live animal in 40*f temps is NOT UNACCEPTABLE. Period.

Stop the deflection, dodging, name dropping, chest puffing, waffling crap and give him a refund.

Refund him and save face.

I wasn't bright enough to format a response, so....


Yeah, what she said (above).:thumbsup:
 
jmwboas I have been doing research since I was 14 to better my knowledge of species I have interest in. Sikorae have been a passion of mine for the last 6 years. Other than contacting my friends "classmates" I took a herpetology course with a couple spring semesters ago I'm not quite sure how I could authentically verify my research I have done thus far.

No since most people have the 1st baby syndrome I don't understand it, it may take time for people to start accepting it. I mean someone has got to start testing it. I shipped her out next day. If lotusracer would have received her doa I wouldve given him a refund
 
bloodybaroness and Lucille you are both saying even though your making your point off of assumption I should disregard my knowledge of facts and experience? Not happening
 
jmwboas I have been doing research since I was 14 to better my knowledge of species I have interest in. Sikorae have been a passion of mine for the last 6 years. Other than contacting my friends "classmates" I took a herpetology course with a couple spring semesters ago I'm not quite sure how I could authentically verify my research I have done thus far.

No since most people have the 1st baby syndrome I don't understand it, it may take time for people to start accepting it. I mean someone has got to start testing it. I shipped her out next day. If lotusracer would have received her doa I wouldve given him a refund

Did you agree to ship fed ex or USPS? If you changed the shipper from what was agreed you minimum owe him the shipping back. The fact that the animal died shortly after he received it means you owe a replacement or his money back. But I'm sure you will explain to me how USPS is fine for shipping animals. When 95% of people will disagree with you but you are smarter than the rest of us.
 
Cut the BS.

Did you ship to the agreed terms between you and the buyer?

Just because she arrived alive, doesn't mean that the trip still didn't affect her. Atleast there is that possibility. Which you should know because of all the research youve done. You should take some advice from the people on this forum. There is several that I look up to. You'll get farther in this hobby if you do. Just my 2cents.


In this hobby you get out of it what you put in it.
 
Nathan, I'd like to provide a little insight into what some of us are thinking here. I will assume for a now that everything you said is true. If you have been working with uros for 6 years, you are well aware that they are among the most fragile creatures that any of us have every dealt with. You are also aware, I'm sure, that each year, Madagascar closes the door a bit further on exportation of these gems, and they are becoming very hard to obtain. Two days in a box in perfect conditions could easily stress them to death. Like Ed pointed out, you can't ship any lizard out in 40 degree temps unheated, especially not a uroplatus. It's very disturbing that you experimented with cold shipping on these delicate creatures.
We have all experienced the sting of realizing that most, if not all, of our sales profit from a particular animal is going to be eaten up by shipping costs, because of weather, or the need for a bigger box that distributes temps better. It sucks, but the safety of the animal comes way before profit.
So, that's where we're coming from.

Noelle
 
Nathan since you like to spout research and how much you know...marinate on this nugget.

Where was the heat pack?

If you know oh so much about the care and husbandry of these so very delicate little lizards, where was that heat pack? 40*f and two days in a box would send this type of lizard over the edge toward death.
 
I've been trying to see NTA's position in this whole affair, and the box size and lack o' heatpack this time of year are a major faux pas with just about any reptile from that region of the world. However, he does have a point regarding live arrival, which is to what many sellers limit their guarantee. If 40°F did indeed kill this animal, would it have arrived alive and only needing hydration, as the buyer noted? Afterall, there is no proof the inside of that box did indeed get down to any certain temperature. For all we really know, someone could have cooked it at 110°F on a radiator somewhere. The ball started rolling in the small-box direction when the OP stated he needed it to fit in a backpack, and we've already covered that area, so I won't go over it again.
We used to get shipments from Africa on a regular basis back in the day at the reptile shop I not only worked at for some 5 years, but lived above for about 3 of those years, and last time I checked, Madagascar is right next to Africa, about midway down the continent. During the winter months, the shipments would come in without heatpacks, and some of the Chameleons would be in shock/near death while others arrived fine in the same box. I use these as an example since I think they are similar (not the same, mind you) in fragility to a uro. Of course, I am also using my vast experience and knowledge that not only allows me to pass judgement, but also gas in public, without anyone uttering a word to the contrary.
Guess my main point here is I still think both parties share some responsibility in the demise of the critter in question. Should NTA have used a bigger box and heatpack, perhaps. However, the animal did arrive alive, and lived for several days afterward. I have to agree with NTA that if the animal has a heartbeat when it gets there, his duties are fulfilled. Now does that mean I think he should keep all the money - nope. I think the cool thing would be to refund $75 back and take half the blame even though he got the animal there alive. For those of you who think the OP should get a full refund, consider this: last summer I bought a pair of terrapins from a guy in Washington State. They arrived overight, and were much smaller than he had led me to believe, and a few days later, one was on death's doorstep. Being the kind of knowledgeable guy I am, and having had at least one of the guys around for the past 20+ years, I soaked it in a saline bath a couple times a day, and she eventually pulled through, and gives the others a run for their moneey everytime feeding time comes around. Now, if I had a little less experience and know-how, and she had died, would I have been due a refund? I think not. Even if there was a delay in shipping and they were not packed according to how I would have done it? Not again. The seller had fulfilled his contract by getting the animals to me alive. It was up to me to keep them that way.
If NTA does decide to split the price and shipping with the OP, I think that would be cool. If he doesn't, then so-be-it, and no I don't think that's cool - just the way the cookie crumbles. For those of you ready to tear into my opinion here, remember opinions are like ... belly buttons.
 
Lucille - the buyer added stress upon a stressed animal he acknowledged seemed stressed. Adding stress upon any stressed animal I'm sure you can agree would not be advisable and when you add the stress of handling and picture taking upon a stressed sikorae yes that is a remedy for disaster. The buyer should have tried to minimize her stress and not take pictures right away. If he thought she was ok enough to handle the stress of taking pictures but died several days later, wouldn't that say even more so shipping wasn't the problem?

Sikorae are not so delicate they can't be shipped in 40 degree weather even with 2 day shipping without thriving afterwards. Yes they are more stressed than overnight shipping but with proper care and regard to minimizing stress they rebound just fine.

I hope that makes things more clear for you.

Seriously?? I wouldn't ship a CRESTED gecko in 40 degree weather with 2-day shipping, never MIND the far more delicate uroplatus -- which I have, in fact, worked with.

I once had a crestie I shipped get lost in the mail for 4 days (completely UPS' fault) during a very mild spring. She arrived alive (to everyone's shock and joy) but it took her MONTHS to recover from that ordeal. She dropped a lot of weight and needed a lot of extra TLC to recover from the stress, dehydration, and temperature flux.

A quick snapshot to document the animal arrived isn't going to cause any harm to a HEALTHY, THRIVING animal fresh out of the box. I take one or two cell phone shots of every critter I receive as I unpack them, just to have documentation on them.

In your *own words* this was an animal that was "already stressed" -- from, dare I say it, your extremely questionable shipping methods. Even if, as you say, the flash photography was the "straw that broke the camel's back", (which as both a photographer and gecko enthusiast I say is BS)... what about all the other "straws" leading up to it? Your short possession of her, then throwing her into a cold box and leaving her in the mail for 2 days

You owe the buyer a refund, full stop. Your carelessness killed the animal, not his flash.

And you need to turn off the spin machine, clarify HOW you are going to ship up front (or better yet, switch to overnight as the industry standard dictates), explain how long a "LTC" animal is really "long term", and stop spinning layer after layer of confusion and substanceless gloss to things, or you're going to find you'll have a very, very hard time moving those valuable animals of yours.
 
You make good points, Nathan. I'll admit I've never opened a large shipment of animals from afar. I agree that the buyer has some responsibility for requesting the small box. I do know from my own experience that, while they do come from the same country, chameleons are tough compared to uros, in that they can survive brief temperature swings. From what I understand, shipments of uros arrive to distributors in the USA, many DOA. The live ones are then handpicked via photos by the buyers, and then sold to us. I've purchased several WC, and several CB. Most of the WC's have died in quarantine, while the CB's are all still going strong. I knew I was taking chances with WC, and never once notified the seller.
I agree that live arrival is pretty much what most people offer, and if the animal were properly shipped, I'd say cut your losses and move on. But it wasn't.

Noelle
 
I haven't had time to write anything today since [gasp] I'm actually working. There's been a lot of reference to Flashes during photography made by people after reading statements by N-T-A. It makes absolutely no difference, but there is absolutely NO FLASH that was used in the photography of the live animal. This is another fiction generated by N-T-A and spouted as fact when it is absolutely NOT correct. I do macro photography, not snapshots, and rely on environmental lighting for almost everything I do until I get down to ~3x macro where lights are necessary. For dark environments and long exposures a handheld flashilight works like a charm.
 
I haven't had time to write anything today since [gasp] I'm actually working. There's been a lot of reference to Flashes during photography made by people after reading statements by N-T-A. It makes absolutely no difference, but there is absolutely NO FLASH that was used in the photography of the live animal. This is another fiction generated by N-T-A and spouted as fact when it is absolutely NOT correct. I do macro photography, not snapshots, and rely on environmental lighting for almost everything I do until I get down to ~3x macro where lights are necessary. For dark environments and long exposures a handheld flashilight works like a charm.

Oh, that makes his nonsense even moreso!

Not that I'm doubting you at all, but if you wanted to add more "oomph" to your side of the argument, perhaps post a screen cap of the EXIF data of the photo of that poor girl?
 
Oh, that makes his nonsense even moreso!

Not that I'm doubting you at all, but if you wanted to add more "oomph" to your side of the argument, perhaps post a screen cap of the EXIF data of the photo of that poor girl?

In my reply following his assertion of the matter I made it clear the raw image off the camera is available to anyone who e-mails me to verify the camera settings. Exposure and ISO are listed in my post. Shoot me a PM with your e-mail addy and I can e-mail the image tonight. I can also post the EXIF later. No big deal. The raw image authenticates the EXIF unquestionably.

To follow-up on another matter as well, I never requested a smaller box. He said 'Medium' and I said 'Good'. I asked to know the size so as to be prepared to handle it. What arrived is what I considered to be small and apparently many others do so too. He's very prone to making assumptions about things and changing what has been agreed on.
 
Yeah, I think the photo is a moot point at this time. I also think most of us are aware no flash was used, but even if it was, I doubt that would cause any significant harm to the uro. I'm also glad someone saw my points re: animal arrived alive being standard TOS for many shippers. I do think if you had bought it from Ben Seigel or one of the other greats, they would have issued at least a partial refund or maybe a store credit even if they had shipped it in a larger box with heatpack and all the amenities - it's just good business practice. That being said, if I were NTA, I'd give a refund, but I'm not. Technically, you probably are not due anything, but I think a half-refund would be a good step for NTA, and next time, as I am pretty sure will happen, he will be a real stickler on the packaging. "Do you want paper or plastic? Fries? Shake? Heatpack or no heatpack?"
To NTA, perhaps you might want to play out this scenario. Right now, you barely have me in your corner and partially in the OP's corner. If you back up a little and punt, and for the sake of argument give LR half-a-refund with the understanding if Paypal says you owe more, you do, and if they say you don't owe anything, then you have done the 'fair' thing in some people's eyes, and may even have some of the others in our peanut gallery decide you are not such a bad guy afterall. I know it sucks basically paying $75 to lose one of your uros, and that is one way to look at it, but seems the majority of reasonable people here believe you were grossly negligent in your duties as shipper, so you might want to at least entertain their opinions a little more and use some good business sense along the way. While some say the customer is always right, I think we all know many times the customer is full of horse puckey (not saying that is the case here at all), but nevertheless, the customer does have hold of the next payment, and if you want a dib on it, eating a little crow from time to time is the only chance of getting a return in the long run. Question then becomes do you like your crow warm or cold. I've found piping hot tastes best.
 
I'm also glad someone saw my points re: animal arrived alive being standard TOS for many shippers. I do think if you had bought it from Ben Seigel or one of the other greats, they would have issued at least a partial refund or maybe a store credit even if they had shipped it in a larger box with heatpack and all the amenities - it's just good business practice

See, I do agree with your basic premise of "live arrival fulfils the agreement" IF the original agreement had been stuck to -- that is, overnight FedEx shipping. If the seller had shipped the animal properly, as the buyer expected and paid for, and it died a few days later, I'd be with you 100%, that it's just a gamble and no money is due the buyer. I've bought WC/LTC stuff that was shipped overnight, arrived alive, died within a couple of days and I never asked for my money back.

In my opinion, though, the seller violated the agreement the moment he shipped the animal a different method, and I feel that it was his shipping choice that caused the critter's demise, so I feel his obligations go beyond the normal "live arrival" clause. His compromised shipping killed the animal even though it wasn't DOA, so I do disagree with you in this particular case. (And I'd feel the same way even from a "big name" seller -- if their guarantee was "live arrival on the first attempt, overnight fedex" and they shipped to me 2-day in cold weather? I'd be raising hell with them, too.)
 
...I'm also glad someone saw my points re: animal arrived alive being standard TOS for many shippers.

...Technically, you probably are not due anything, but I think a half-refund would be a good step for NTA, and next time, as I am pretty sure will happen, he will be a real stickler on the packaging. "Do you want paper or plastic? Fries? Shake? Heatpack or no heatpack?"

I've seen your suggestion and I understand the point but everything else aside (his lies, drama, etc.), it disregards some important matters. For places that WILL ship 2nd day the standard TOS is that live arrival is guaranteed for overnight shipping only. I haven't seen otherwise but there may be some that exist. Animals shipped overnight (with appropriate packaging) tend to be viable. For buyers that choose 2nd day there is no guarantee. Those are normal terms. So, sellers, in general, do not view animals arriving in two days as viable but he can suddenly apply overnight TOS to a 2nd day arrival? BS.

If the animal were shipped USPS and DID arrive alive overnight, we wouldn't be here with this discussion as the TOS would be fulfilled even if the courier were wrong. We may be having one just on how he'll freely change the details of the transaction, particularly shipping, and communicates poorly and deceptively, which is important for people to understand.
Now, that the animal DID arrive alive (2nd day) is mostly just a curiosity in a wait-and-see kind of situation. If it had arrived on day three or four or a week, alive, would the original TOS still apply? I think not. This is where the situation needs to be worked out and resolved through negotiation.
By all matters of hindsight, what I should have done is rejected the package since it was NOT delivered overnight, NOT delivered with the agreed upon courier and was NOT delivered to the given address (held at post office) (ignore the size and lack of heat for brevity). That would be certain demise as the package winds its way back through the system. However, in the ANIMALS best interest, accepting the package to facilitate resolution and rehab is the ETHICAL thing to do; this isn't a pair of mittens shipped from Amazon.

Second, he agreed to ship FedEx (reliable) and then ships USPS (not reliable) on his own accord. He's chosen the courier and takes full responsibility for his actions and their service. If he shipped FedEx and they blew a biscuit he could have shifted responsibility to me with 'it's your courier, deal with it'. He asked me and I provided two possibilites with one preferred; none of them were 'Joes house of leisure suits and reptile shipping' He comes back after selecting neither of them with a third.
His courier not only failed to deliver accordingly, it seems like this delay is substantially if not completely what led to the demise of this creature. He shows no intention of actually shipping FedEx, ever, besides the original exchange; that original agreement appears to be deception after all of his subsequent remarks. This is all on his side before I even have contact with the package.

Third, I notify the guy that the animal has died after a few days in my care after the ordeal in shipping. There's no follow-up, no interest, no apology, condolences, no adult response like "That's unfortunate, but considering what happened with USPS it's really not suprising. Let me talk to USPS and let's work out something amicable." All I get are wise-ass remarks and condescension. AS IF something that manages to survive two days in transit is equivalent to something delivered on time. That's immature. I've been available for negotiation both up on the original purchase offer and down on a settlement. He's taken interest in neither; his behavior is on display.

I think we're about three weeks out from the original shipment now; there was a remark he made that I've ambushed him with this thread; that is disingenuine. Others I've consulted had suggested Paypal and BOI earlier than I did; I have endeavored to communicate with him at every point.
 
I agree with you completely, but from a legal point, I think the buyer is SOL. Therefore, I'd appeal to the seller's conscience. I think most will agree he has spent more than enough time in defending himself to warrant he probably has a guilty subconscience, if you will. Up front, he's been threatened and has come back fighting. I'm pretty sure if he thinks about it long enough, he'll realize the vast majority of people here say he needs to give a full refund, and the minority (me) says he should at the very least give a half refund, and basically nobody has stated he should keep the money. One other point he should consider is if the 'jury' is biased. A quick peruse through some of the other BOI threads will show they are not. I've seen quite a few threads where basically one unknown person was starting a BOI bad-guy thread on another unknown, and after the evidence is presented, they seller is defended to the point where the OP finally admits they jumped the gun.
Face it, this BOI thing does an excellent job at what it was designed to do. I'm pretty sure Al Gore invented it too.
 
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