Bad Guy KolorBurst Cham - Joshua Coppens - Will not honor 7 day health guarantee

[figg2112]

Let my introduce myself. My name is Dessirae (Dez) Scarborough and I am part owner of Chamalot Chameleons in Kissimmee Florida. We have been keeping chameleons for 7 years and breeding them for 5 years. We are small time breeders and take a lot of pride in the animals we produce. I am always eager to help new cham owners.. If you have watched any chameleons videos on youtube you have most likely seen some of mine, educational and entertaining.

I consider myself a very reasonable person but I am having an issue with a seller on here and I feel I need to post what is going on

I responded to an ad in the chameleon section posted by "Kolorburst Chameleons" Joshua Coppens

His ad can be sen here:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/search.php?searchid=2725609

Text from the Ad I responded to:

"I have a clutch of 4 month old Blue Bar Ambilobe Panther Chameleons that i am now shipping. The Sire as you can see is very vibrantly colored.I have a variety of both males and females that are sired by one of my breeders Mr Chameleon who's father is Hunter from Fl Chams. Males are $200 SHIPPED and Females are are $150 SHIPPED TO ANYWHERE IN THE CONTINENTAL US.Please email me @ [email protected] if you are interested!!! I ship through Reptile Express which is a Fedex shipper. All chameleons will be shipped Priority overnight You can also call at 239-896-7248 CALL JOSH @ 239-896-7248 OR EMAIL ME @ [email protected]
CHAMELEONS COME WITH LIVE ARRIVAL GUARANTEE AND 7 DAY HEALTH GUARANTEE!!!!!!"

The chams posted in the ad looked very nice so I decided to purchase two females for future breeding projects. I did do a BOI search for the sellers name on here and came up with nothing.. I saw he has a Facebook page as well is a member on the chameleonforums.com.

When the chameleons arrived they where very underweight. I had to leave for work after they arrived but I emailed the seller right away to say the one female in particular was thin.

The next morning I had time to watch them properly. I realized the one was very very thin. The other one was also thin but not as bad - no fat pads on his head and indented line on his arm. his eyes also appear slightly sunken...and I now realized it was a male instead of a female) The pair spent all day asleep.

I emailed the seller again and after a few back and forths (which I will post) The seller asked if I would wait a few days to see if they recover.

On Wednesday the chameleons had not improved. The skinny female has gone downhill even more. I often find her slumped over a branch asleep.
I again emailed the seller but so far have not gotten a response.

I opened a dispute with paypal and the seller esculated it to a claim. So I know he is aware of my emails but is choosing to ignore me.


Here are the emails. I color coated the emails with the thought they would be easier to read.. hope it is.

The first is from him on the evening they where to ship out:

From:[email protected] <[email protected]>
Date:Thu, November 8, 2012 5:33 pm
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>

I need ir help all the lil ones are dark colored today are these boys or girls

Kolorburst Chameleons[/COLOR]

(Sellers photos)

From: [email protected]





To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Ambilobe from fauna
Date: Thu, Nov 8, 2012 5:37 pm


I am leaning toward female on the first one.. The coloring looks very
girly. Going by the tail it could go either way. I am leaning toward
female though

The second one I am sure is female 100%.






[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]
Re: Ambilobe from fauna
From:[email protected] <[email protected]>
Date:Thu, November 8, 2012 5:33 pm
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Priority: Normal


Ok lol this is my most unfavorite part of this. So u think because of the
> red throat num one is a female
>
> Kolorburst Chameleons[/COLOR]





From: [email protected]
To: ""DarkRed"@yahoo.com" <[email protected]>
Subject: Ambilobe from fauna
Date: Thu, Nov 8, 2012 5:44 pm


The blue dots on the cheeks. It looks like a lot of my little females at
4 months old. I don't know though for sure. I usually go by the
tail bump to be certain but its hard to tell from that picture. Males
have a slight taper where girls will be really straight tailed. Some are
harder to tell than others.






Subject Re: Ambilobe from fauna
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, November 8, 2012 5:54 pm
To: [email protected]
Priority: Normal

Is this 100 percent a boy?

Kolorburst Chameleons

From: [email protected]
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Ambilobe from fauna
Date: Thu, Nov 8, 2012 6:01 pm


I would say male on that one




Subject: Re: Ambilobe from fauna
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, November 8, 2012 6:09 pm
To: [email protected]

Good im sending the two i showed u first the def dont have much or any of a buldge

Kolorburst Chameleons



I took the morning off from work to be there for the shipment. The package arrived Fedex Right on time. They where packed well in deli cups with a heat pack for the chilly night. As I removed them from the box I saw one had indented cheeks which is typical of a chameleon that is under weight. I put them in the cage and watered and fed them. I had to run off to work so I shot the seller an email and left:




From: [email protected]
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Ambilobe from fauna
Date: Fri, Nov 9, 2012 10:38 am


HI

The chams arrived. Put them in the cage and misted them.

One of the girls looks a little on the thin side (slightly indented cheeks
and thin 'fat pads' on head) I fed and watered them. I have to go
to work now so I will have to observe their appetite over the weekend.
She may just be thin due to high competition for food.. hopefully that is
all it is and will fatten up a little

Dessirae





From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Ambilobe from fauna
Date: Fri, Nov 9, 2012 10:47 AM


Good to hear. Yea she was the smallest one so maybe she was getting bullied

Kolorburst Chameleons




The Next day was Saturday so I was able to watch the new arrivals. They where both very lethargic. They kept their eyes closed for the majority of the morning. They where both underweight but the one I had noticed the day before was very skinny..emaciated. The other one was also skinny but not near as bad.. He looked like he was actually a male now too. I know it can be hard to sex chams at a young age so that is not an issue. My issue is that he spent the entire morning hanging upside down with both eyes closed.

Here are photos of the animals I received:

Female:

You can really see the sunken cheeks here:

How she spends her day

Male sleeps during the day and is also little underweight

I decided that these where not healthy chameleons. Thank goodnness for the 7 day health guarentee right? I thought they would survive a trip back as it is instate and not have to go on a plane overnight. I thought it was best to tell the seller my intentions as soon as possable.


I wrote the seller again after having them a little over 24 hours:




From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Ambilobe from fauna
Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2012 11:52 am


Hi

Well I hate to say it ... But I am going to have to return these two chameleons. I believe they have health issues. They are both very very underweight . They have indented cheeks and no fat pads on their head. One is more underweight than the other. They have not shown any interest in food and I have observed them both sleeping all morning. Even hanging upside down under the branch asleep .

The less skinny one looks like it may be a male as well.

I will observe them for the rest of the weekend but my intentions are to return them to you under your health guarantee, sorry to say.

Dessirae






[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Ambilobe from fauna
Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2012 2:06 PM


Ok. I dont know how we go about doing that ive never had a problem with one ive sold. I observe them everyday and never saw one not eat. As far as you thinking ones a male i asked you to verify for me and i sent the 2 u thought were females. Theres no point in returning them to me if u truely think they are sick because the stress of shipping them back im sure would kill them

Kolorburst Chameleons
[/COLOR]





From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Ambilobe from fauna
Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2012 2:33 pm


I totally understand that sexing baby chams is very tricky. And know you asked my advice. That one from the photo looked more female, but I couldn't be sure . Now I see him in person I think a boy (i still could be wrong) Anyway that is not the reason I want to return them.

I want to return them because they are very underweight. The smaller one is more so than the 'boy' ..that and they have been sleeping a lot since they got here.

I don't believe they would die being shipped back. They are not on 'deaths door'. And shipping would still be instate so they will not be subject to a plane ride.

I can ship them to you (i will cover shipping cost back) for a refund, minus your shipping cost to send them to me in the first place.

Lastly I want to say that if you are new to raising baby chams, I understand it can be easy to miss signs that one may not be 100% healthy. We have been breeding chams for about 5 years now and when we started knew almost nothing about raising babies. I am not angry or think you tried to sell me a sick cham purposely. I also understand if you have a lot of babies in the cage it can be hard to single out one from the other.

Bottom line is I would like a refund if I return them or not. I am happy to return them to you. If you absolutely don't want them shipped again I can find a home for them where someone can work with them if need be

Dessirae






From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Ambilobe from fauna
Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2012 2:59 PM


I apprieciate your knowledge on chameleons but my health guarentee is in place for a chameleon which would die within the 7 days after delivery,not for a "under weight cham". If i returned money to every person who thought there might be a issue id be dealing with a real headache. Are u telling me u return money to anyone who "thinks" the cham has a issue? I would say to give them acouple more days to let them settle in and eat. Its only been one day and i have had chams come to me that wouldnt feed for several days but whos health was perfectly fine

Kolorburst Chameleons





From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Ambilobe from fauna
Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2012 3:32 pm


Yes I do return money to everyone who thinks their chameleon is not healthy within the 7 day guarantee. That is why I have very high standards when it comes to chameleons I shipped out. And in 5 years I have been selling chameleons I have only had to take back and refund payment one time.

I even extend the courtesy to people who think their chameleon might have a problem on day 6 for extra days incase the chameleon IS sick. My top priority is that people are happy with their chameleons.

The second I open the box and saw these chams I was dissapointed on their weight. That is why I was sure to email you right away to tell you. If the only symptom was closing their eyes on the first day would have no problem waiting out the week thinking that they needed to settle in.

I have been raising chameleons long enough to know when they have a problem. If your 'health guarantee' is only for chameleons that will die in 7 days (!) it should be spelled out in your ad.

Since I know you think you are right..how about I post an inquiry on fauna BOA and let the community tell me what they think should be done.

If you want to wait 7 days to decide if I should return them I will. But I figured why wait for chameleons I am not happy with

Dessirae






Subject:Re: Ambilobe from fauna
From:[email protected] <[email protected]>
Date:Sat, November 10, 2012 3:39 pm
To:[email protected] <[email protected]>
Priority: Normal


You can post whatever you want on fauna that is up to you. I am telling you that i do not make refunds under my health guarentee for what u think is a underweight chameleon. I know for a fact being shipped overnight in a box stresses the animal so yes i would like you to wait . I sent you pictures the night before of the exact chams u got and u didnt say one thing about them being underweight.

Kolorburst Chameleons


Subject: Re: Ambilobe from fauna
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, November 10, 2012 3:41 pm
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Priority: Normal


And you would wait a week because they were closing their eyes but not to let them gain alittle weight. None of my chams look underweight.

Kolorburst Chameleons






Subject: Re: Ambilobe from fauna
From:[email protected]
Date:Sat, November 10, 2012 3:54 pm
To:"[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Priority:Normal


This is the photo you sent me of the very skinny girl. Please note how
out of focus it is. I did not say anything about her being under weight
because you can not see anything from the photo

Dessirae
Attachment

From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Ambilobe from fauna
Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2012 3:49 pm


Notice the indented cheeks and lack of pads on her head . Also the
indented line on her legs that is typical of an under weight cham.

Second picture is how the other cham was all morning hanging upside down
asleep.

Attachments

From:[email protected] <[email protected]>
Date:Sat, November 10, 2012 3:56 pm
To:[email protected] <[email protected]>


I see the slightly indented cheeks in the pic all i was saying is maybe she was being bullied out of food and needs time on her own to fatten up

Kolorburst Chameleons



From: [email protected]
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Ambilobe from fauna
Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2012 4:16 pm


all I am saying is that I was not expecting the chameleons to be so thin.
Couple that with the fact they have been sleeping all day now and even
hanging from their back legs from a branch makes me think it is not a
bulling issue and a very real health problem.


Subject: Re: Ambilobe from fauna
From:[email protected] <[email protected]>
Date:Sat, November 10, 2012 5:51 pm
To:[email protected]

Well please stick it out with them for a few days if they dont recover i will be glad to refund ur money

Kolorburst Chameleons



So I waited a few days and the chameleons have not improved. I was also in contact with my vet during this time

I send another email to the seller Wednesday morning


Subject:Re: Ambilobe from fauna
From:[email protected]
Date:Wed, November 14, 2012 9:46 am
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>


Hello

I met with my vet, Dr Alfonso yesterday for another matter and showed him
the two chameleons. He agreed that the smaller female was dehydrated
and very malnourished as well as the other chameleon but not as advanced.
(and please feel free to contact him directly if you would like - his
info: http://www.kirkmanareavet.com/index.html)

The skinnier one has been going downhill since Saturday . She is less
and less active and I often find her hanging or slumped over a branch
asleep. I have included several photos of her so you can see how frail
she is.

The other chameleon is in less dire condition but has not really improved
since Saturday. He is still sleeping a lot during the day.

At think point I am not sure if the skinny one would (*this is a typo in the orignal message- it was ment to say wouldn't) survive the stress
being shipped back. The other (and I am positive it is a male now) would
fair a trip much better at least for now.

A 7 day health guarantee means that the animals are healthy in all the
sense of the word. Not your idea of healthy or my idea of healthy, but
healthy by definition which means an animal that is fit for sale at the
minimum. Skinny, dehydrated and malnourished animals do not fall under
"healthy" even if they arrive alive and do not die within 7 days.

I would still like a refund for these two animals. It is up to you if
you would like them shipped back or not.

Dessirae

I attached the photos already throughout this thread

I got no reply from the seller

Thursday afternoon I opened a dispute with paypal for a partial refund (minus the shipping) . The seller has escalated it to a claim so I know he is aware of ot but has not made any contact with me.


The chameleons arrived on Friday and tomorrow will be one week

 

[figg2112]

I did just email him the link asking him to feel free to ad to the thread

I would like nothing more than to get this resolved

 

[Varaki]

That looks severely under weight and it's a shame that the poor thing arrived in such condition. I saw one of his adds right before I clicked on this and he has in all caps the seven day guarantee but it for death only it seems. Hopefully something can be done or you both can come to an agreement, regardless the animal's came from him.

Here is the add:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=363407

How are the little ones doing right now though? Are they getting better?

 

[figg2112]

Yes he must have reposted his ad today

Here are pics from just now. I don't think the female will live much longer. I have seen her attempt to eat one time and her tongue was very sluggish

Male is in better shape but in no way 100% healthy.

 

[Varaki]

She does indeed look very lethargic and rather weak. Has he contacted you back on anything you replied to him about. It's obvious he sent you two very weak and sick looking Cham. Are you wanting to get a refund for the female? Or a new one? Either way he should at least do something for the sick one that he sent you.

I myself am in my first year starting next year doing snake breeding, but I also do bird breeding, I know if they are weak, often times feeding a syringe or vitamins and food together can help, is it the same for the Chameleons?

 

[figg2112]

She does indeed look very lethargic and rather weak. Has he contacted you back on anything you replied to him about. It's obvious he sent you two very weak and sick looking Cham. Are you wanting to get a refund for the female? Or a new one? Either way he should at least do something for the sick one that he sent you.

I myself am in my first year starting next year doing snake breeding, but I also do bird breeding, I know if they are weak, often times feeding a syringe or vitamins and food together can help, is it the same for the Chameleons?

I believe they should both fall under the health guarantee for a refund. However it is obviously the female I am most concerned with. I do not want a replacement.

You can syringe feed chameleons but the problem is they get stressed out so easily. It is hard to do if they are small like these guys. Forcing the mouth open and causing stress may do more harm than good. I have tried to drip some critical care mixture (same kind used for birds) on the females nose to see if she would eat it but I don't think she did.


I have not heard anything more from the seller than what I have posted above.

 

[Varaki]

I believe they should both fall under the health guarantee for a refund. However it is obviously the female I am most concerned with. I do not want a replacement.

You can syringe feed chameleons but the problem is they get stressed out so easily. It is hard to do if they are small like these guys. Forcing the mouth open and causing stress may do more harm than good. I have tried to drip some critical care mixture (same kind used for birds) on the females nose to see if she would eat it but I don't think she did.


I have not heard anything more from the seller than what I have posted above.

You are correct in all honestly, both came with problems and not in a hundred percent health. Yes, she seems the worst off between the two. Hopefully we will hear what he has to say in regards to the two he sold you when its obvious they are not in good health.

I see, can it be placed in water or on the very edge of her mouth? I know some can be mixed in the water. I am hoping she survives though, I hate how some people don't care for the animals they raise.

He might be dodging the thread it seems or just doesn't want to post. Will you be able to get some money back from Paypal?

 

[SquamataMississauga]

Geez, that female is on deaths door.
I'm pretty certain if you did send it back it would die in transport to stress.
I'm shocked they arrived alive at all.

I agree with you as well, health guarantee does not mean "doesn't die" it means they should be in good shape when they arrive.

Good luck, hope that guy makes it right, but seeing as he shipped that girl I wouldn't bet on it

 

[figg2112]

You are correct in all honestly, both came with problems and not in a hundred percent health. Yes, she seems the worst off between the two. Hopefully we will hear what he has to say in regards to the two he sold you when its obvious they are not in good health.

I see, can it be placed in water or on the very edge of her mouth? I know some can be mixed in the water. I am hoping she survives though, I hate how some people don't care for the animals they raise.

He might be dodging the thread it seems or just doesn't want to post. Will you be able to get some money back from Paypal?

I got a notice from paypal that said the seller "submitted an explanation describing the disagreement with this claim."

He has told paypal:

My Guarantee only covers death of the animal within the 7 days. My guarantee does not cover anything else. I first received a email from Chamelot chameleons saying she wanted a refund because one of the chameleons looked underweight to her. She is trying to quote her own companies health guarantee and put it off as mine. Every breeder has their own policy and mine is to refund money in the case of a animal dieing within 7 days of receipt. This policy is this way because once the purchaser receives the animal i have no control of the care given to the animal.This is not just merchandise it is a live animal and i cannot just have live animal returns because a purchaser feels like a animal is underweight

Interesting to note that I contacted the seller in just under 24 hours saying they are in ill health.

 

[Varaki]

i cannot just have live animal returns because a purchaser feels like a animal is underweight

That is the problem right there. It isn't that you feel she is underweight, it is that she IS underweight and not only that, it is shown as clear as day that she is well underweight and not doing well at all. Its pretty bad when the seller only guarantee's death but not the health and quite honestly, I would never do business with someone who won't back up the health of the animal they are selling.

Seeing that, I doubt you will get anything back but I hope you do. If he was any decent person or at least caring of both his animal's and customers, he would do the right thing in this case.

 

[Lucille]

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Current Activity: Viewing Thread KolorBurst Cham - Joshua Coppens - Will not honor 7 day health guarantee

I have a feeling that this thread will affect his sales. Who wants to order from a company who sends chams that a buyer feels are ill, and then takes care of the issue by saying his 'health' guarantee is actually a 'death' guarantee?

At least future prospective customers will know what is in store for them if they buy from him.

 

[SquamataMississauga]

Who wants to order from a company who sends chams that a buyer feels are ill

This isn't really a 'feeling' thing.
The female is sickly, neglected and is most likely going to die over the next couple of days unless figg2112 can get a good amount of food/water into it without stressing it past the point of no return.

 

[Lucille]

Dessirae, perhaps you could send Paypal a link to this thread?

 

[figg2112]

Dessirae, perhaps you could send Paypal a link to this thread?

I did

 

[Varaki]

Would paypal actually look at this thread?

 

[markpulawski]

When anyone buys a CB animal it is a given that one would expect a healthy, feeding viable animal....unless there is a disclaimer, just hatched, not fed yet which usually comes with a big discount due the seller needing immediate cash.
If this is the quality, or lack thereof Kolorburst Chamelians is going to provide, thanks for the warning to everyone. No way that girl had fed recently, if at all. Sending out horrible quality animals, hopefully this thread will save somebody from making the mistake of buying from him.

 

[Lucille]

Would paypal actually look at this thread?

Whatever happens with the dispute, if the seller does not successfully handle this issue he will lose way more money than the cost of this cham from lost future sales.
At this point, maybe an apology and refund can save his rep. But playing word games with Paypal when the pictures clearly show the quality lizard he ships out is a huge error in protecting his name, in my opinion.

 

[Varaki]

Whatever happens with the dispute, if the seller does not successfully handle this issue he will lose way more money than the cost of this cham from lost future sales.
At this point, maybe an apology and refund can save his rep. But playing word games with Paypal when the pictures clearly show the quality lizard he ships out is a huge error in protecting his name, in my opinion.

True, after seeing the state the animal was in when arriving to the buyer, people will stop buying. Maybe save part of his rep, but I think some damage has already been done. You are right though on what you say.

 

[figg2112]

Whatever happens with the dispute, if the seller does not successfully handle this issue he will lose way more money than the cost of this cham from lost future sales.
At this point, maybe an apology and refund can save his rep. But playing word games with Paypal when the pictures clearly show the quality lizard he ships out is a huge error in protecting his name, in my opinion.

The dispute is still open... I don't have any new info on that.

I actually felt better buying from KolorBurst BECAUSE he offered a 7 day health guarantee. It was a false security...
I feel he should have to spell out his version of a health guarantee in his ads

 

[alfon76]

I have been Ms. Scarborough's Veterinarian for several years now and she is a top notch chameleon keeper. She sent me a few pics of the babies she purchased and I have to say that they look depressing. I am not going to speculate anything regarding the seller as I don't know him/her but all I can say is that a health guarantee involves a healthy animal by definition. Underweight, lethargic or anorexic animals do not fit in the healthy definition regardless of species. She is entitled to a full refund due to the poor condition of both chameleons, especially the female. I hope the seller manages to fix the issue because otherwise it is painfully clear he/she intends to sell unfit chameleons to anyone he/she feels like. Even if you don't know chameleons too well, you can tell that both animals are in poor shape.
To the seller, all I can say is that issues can happen when shipping chameleons, and any reptile for that matter, but the important factor here is how you as a breeder/seller respond to those issues. It is obvious that Ms. Scarborough contacted you right from the start regarding her unhappiness with the chameleons she got from you so you should step up to the plate and resolve the issue in a satisfactory way. I don't think you mean to outright scam her but it is looking that way by the lack of support on your part.

Ivan Alfonso, DVM