Info Tammy & Kevin-Business and morals? Enough is enough

[RobbiesCornField]

What I have only used the term proven breeder when there is live offspring from that said snake. I never use that term with a female that lays slugs and has never had hatchlings from. So yes some of the blame can be said if that female is said to be a proven breeder and is sold to a breeder with that breeder thinking and trusting said breeder that the female has produced no problem and has gotten live offspring from. So yes I can see some blame on that breeder. In all context no one can grantee hets or breed ability.

The thing is, this female was not sold as a proven breeder. Just as an adult.

 

[Lucille]

you all are the ones dragging us thought the mud for the sake of your relationship with him. That's what's really happening.

I don't even know the OP, and the mud here is of your own making.
To accuse your peers of dishonesty, to say that they would let their relationships dictate their ethics, is to insult and under rate the quality and honesty of readers we have here.

You have whispered. You have whined. You are, above, even insulting your peers in the snake business.
You have taken time and done everything you can to sway opinion except brought the proof you say you have. As soon as proof is mentioned, you suddenly have obligations that prevent you from doing so. Classic.

 

[Mystic Exotics]

What I have only used the term proven breeder when there is live offspring from that said snake. I never use that term with a female that lays slugs and has never had hatchlings from. So yes some of the blame can be said if that female is said to be a proven breeder and is sold to a breeder with that breeder thinking and trusting said breeder that the female has produced no problem and has gotten live offspring from. So yes I can see some blame on that breeder. In all context no one can grantee hets or breed ability.

That is not the dispute here.

 

[Cent_Phillips]

The eggs in that picture don't look like slugs to me. And these people complaining haven't gotten her to lay eggs at all, fertile or not.

my statement was aimed at no one just general statement. I have had slugs laid that look fertile that where in deed slugs because they never developed veins and after 30 days incubating finally just shriveled up and went bad. So I don't believe pictures of ones with healthy looking eggs unless candled pictures to prove they are in deed good eggs.

 

[Nanci]

The snake was not sold as a proven breeder, Cent.

 

[Cent_Phillips]

The snake was not sold as a proven breeder, Cent.

okay. I was responding at those that claim she was a proven breeder though.

 

[exar15xe]

I have a lot of emails and pm correspondents between John Fitzgerald and myself and fiancé about the animal in question a 2009 tessera female het for bloodred. I will try to keep this shorter rather longer by posting all of them in here so this doesnt turn into 15 pages I have reviewed all of my emails and Pm's to make sure my statements are accurate . Back in October Tammy had inquired with John to see if he had any male tessera's het bloodred available. At that time he only had one in his projects NSF, we said ok Ty and kept looking we posted an add to the same looking specifically for a breed-able tessera het bloodred. John later in August contacted us about this, that he had a 2011 male and possibly a female adult, we said we we interested if the animal was breed-able of age, he said she was a 2009 so she was old enough. He never mentioned he had bred her and she had ended up duding out. I guess no ask no tell? But he wanted 800 plus shipping for here so, We made arrangements and he shipped her to us. Tammy called him when she arrived and thanked him again for sparing a breed age adult as the tessera projects were difficult to get a hold of, and we would keep him up to date with our breedings. He again Did not say anything then either, We brumated and treated her the same as all of our other females when breeding time came she refused our proven males attempts with extreme violence, we contacted him for advise and to see if he had experienced behavior from any of his females like this. We conferred several times and tried everything, he said he didn't know what was going on, most of his tricks were for males, ect. He never mentioned at this time that he had ever bred her or had eggs from her or problems either.
04-26-2012, 05:18 PM
Re: 0.1 Tessera Het bloodred
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorro
Sounds like she is plenty big enough, all of my tricks are for males and the females just don't breed until they are ready. Have you probed her, maybe I made a mistake? I don't usually do this cause I have no control if a male or female will breed but if you would like your money back on her, I would do that for you.

John
I sent
Thank you so much, Im not sure what to do about it yet. I have probed her. I probed her as a female. I tried known females and males in my collections and I'm 100% certain she is a female. But she still doesn't want anything to do with any males... thank you, Ill give her some more time but I dont think anything is going to happen.
Kevin
Yes he offered a refund and I guess I should have taken him up on the offer at that time, but we though maybe new place, maybe she would do better next year and hopefully if not that John would try to help us find a replacement or something. With his great rep we never expected our business relationship to go like this.
So we kept trying and the male just for reference refused to breed any female from then on. I know this is stupid weird we don't understand it either but he still hasn't bred 2 yrs later.
We talked with john again about the problem and told him i guess we would try again next yr. he said ok, and we thought him being the upstanding man he was said to be this would be ok. He still did not mention anything about breeding her or laying or duding to us.

Then 03-06-2013, 01:27 PM
Re: Female tessera het bloodred I got from you
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorro
Quote:
Hey John

I purchased a female tessera het bloodred from you, I had contacted you last year with the the news that she would not breed with any of my males. She is doing it again this year. She has been through brumation with the rest of my females and I have placed her with multiple males that have bred with other females this year and all she does is tail whip them to the point of making the males not want anything to do with her. Did you have success breeding her before me? In the "Post your Tessera" ( on cs) thread there is a picture you posted that shows her with a fire male with what appears to be evidence of breeding? Im very puzzled as to why she is not breeding or what is wrong with her.
He sent
Kevin & Tammy
My phone is acting up so I can't go see that pic, but I thought the only breeding I did with a fire was a male tessera to a female fire. Could that be the pic you are looking at? As soon as I get home I will look into this, sorry for a the trouble.

Then sent
I looked back in my records and 2011 was a bad year for eggs, I only had 4 out of 16 that had eggs that made it till hatching. She was one of them, she laid 13 eggs, 8 good eggs and 5 slugs. No eggs made it till hatching but that male cayenne fire that I was using had good clutches for a few years has not had any good eggs. He is now doing the school shows and is retired from breeding.
As far as she goes, she did breed when she was here
but can't figure out why she wouldn't breed for you. My females are just now breeding for me and as much as I have tried to get started earlier I can't. I have a female on loan to ******* and they have been trying for a month to get her to breed but she won't yet. Keep trying with her and keep me informed.
John

We would have liked to know an animal we invested into had bred before and none of the "eggs made it to the end." We would have never risked so much if we had known that regardless if it was her or the males fault. This information should have been shared with us, This is a ethical failure from him. He sold us an animal without telling us everything pertinent to it. He knew what we wanted for we were vary upfront with him about it. If he had told us she bred before and the eggs didn't make it, then yes we would have no room to complain but he decided not to even though we had talked many times. He never admitted breeding until we had pictures of them.

04-14-2013, 08:46 AM
Re: Tessera Het blood update
Quote:
Originally Posted by exar15xe
Well I have tried and Tried to no avail. She wants nothing to to with breeding. Im just at a loss for words.


Kevin and Tammy
I'm sorry to hear that, the strange thing is a tessera bet charcoal and stripe that I loaned out last fall and went through brimstone also refuses to breed for them. She had a huge clutch for me the year before!
Again so sorry
John

Then 04-14-2013, 10:31 AM
Re: Tessera Het blood update
Hey John,

Tammy and I have done a lot of talking about this girl and we have come to a decision on her.
When we bought her we were very clear that we wanted a bread-able tessera het bloodred. The first year she didnt breed on many attempts we chalked it up to new location. We put a lot of money, time, and space into this girl. And she hasnt produced anything to offset her cost. You never led us to believe anything was wrong with her.

This year she is doing it again. She was treated the same as all of our other females and we have no other females doing the same thing and are breeding just fine.

We feel that it is fair to you to give us a refund of the purchase price and take the animal back. She has been fed every week and is well taken care of. She weighs 535grams. We will never be able to get back the Time, money. and space we have invested into this girl back. We understand this and we are willing to chalk this up to a loss but are not willing to take a complete loss because we were very specific as to what we wanted to purchase and you were not up front with your information. So we require a refund including shipping cost so we can ship her back to you and find a replacement.

He responded "I have no control over what mother nature does or doesn't do, I am still struggling to save my house much less send you a refund. I was considering a way to make this up to you but I don't do well with demands. I sure wish you would have come at this a less aggressive way."

We sent
John
I am sorry about your current situation but, I have been extremely passive about this. We have talked back and forth 9 times just this year and you have not once mentioned an option for trying to do any monetary exchange. I am not being aggressive I'm just explaining myself what my wishes are and how I feel that an resolution may be reached. I think after waiting for all this time it is completely within reason for me to explain how we feel and what we would like to do to resolve it.

I also understand you have no control over nature, but I bought a breeding female, you sold her to me with the understanding that was what I was looking for. We talked about her immediately about not breeding last year when this happened and were passive about it then too. This is not a new problem, I have been very passive for this whole time its been over a year and a half, and with no offers from you we finally say something about how we felt. We are being more upfront of what we are thinking and needing to do, that is all.

A refund and her to return to you is us being out money for taking care of her and 2 years time wasted on our breeding project. Again I am sorry about your circumstances, but we should still need to be at least talking about a resolution. I really wish you had talked to me about a resolution before, but you didn't.

He ignored this completely and never responded since.

Then Tammy sent

04-28-2013, 11:05 AM
kitten0304
Registered User

tessera het blood with exar
Hello John,

I am Kevin's fiance Tammy, I needed to mail you about this female Tessera het blood we bought from you. I am just sick over this problem with her. Last year when she would not breed we sent you email's and talked about her not breeding, in the end you then offered us to send her back for a refund. At that time we made the decision to not send her back because we did not want to burden you or cause any problemsor repercussions on us, so we kept her here hoping it was a very unfortunate fluke and wouldn't be a problem next year. You said to keep you up to date on her, why would you offer to do that then and now after all our expense, and time not hold to that offer? I would completely understand if we had bought a baby or yearling animal and did not know if it could or would breed but this was a breeding adult animal, and was advertised as such. It was extremely hard for us to find the money to buy her as we are not well off in any way either, this is a huge blow to our breedings, and our funding to keep all our projects going, and to our understanding of the relationships between breeders. We really need to find some resolution so we can try to salvage some of this project please.
Tammy
__________________
Tammy & Kevin

He ignored that pm as well and has made no attempt to repair, mend, refund, or reply

Again we are reasonable and waited almost 2yrs to say anything, never once thinking this would happen like this. John should have been honest and upfront about all of this.

Wether people think I am right or not, in the end all that matters is doing the right thing keeping morals above dollars and the animals we bring in to this world safe. Doing business is hard, but being upfront and honest is best no matter if it ruins your sale or not. You can say what you want about his obligations or not but in my book honesty is most important and will always come first for us, and not selling because you think it is best for the animal or prospective owner or telling them past information on the animal is a must regardless if they end up buying the animals or not.

Now I'm sure your all gonna pick this apart but hopefully for those persistent ones that hung on through all the drama you know we demand the honesty and the morals about all above all because that's how we operate! Always! And forever!

And for those who have decided other wise, whatever we know what's most important like I said morals, honesty and best for the animals so you can post what you want and slander me and Tammy all you want but it's all hearsay and slander you will never find where we have SOLD an animal under false pretenses or hidden information ever! And Lucille thanks for linking all my GOOD GUY ADDS to this slander you have kept running to no end the truth will still prevail!

 

[Mystic Exotics]

okay. I was responding at those that claim she was a proven breeder though.

I will have to go back & check, but I don't recall anyone saying she was a proven breeder. She was proven female, having laid eggs. She was proven that she can produce eggs.

The bottom line, is they were not able to get her to produce, they tried to get a refund, & then pitched a fit when they were denied.

There are NO guarantees in breeding animals. That is a chance you take when you buy them, no matter how much you pay.
No one should expect the breeder to "make good" when an animal fails to produce for them. (Unless the breeder specifically states they are guaranteed to produce, which I do not know of ANY breeder that does that.)

 

[exar15xe]

I will have to go back & check, but I don't recall anyone saying she was a proven breeder. She was proven female, having laid eggs. She was proven that she can produce eggs.

The bottom line, is they were not able to get her to produce, they tried to get a refund, & then pitched a fit when they were denied.

There are NO guarantees in breeding animals. That is a chance you take when you buy them, no matter how much you pay.
No one should expect the breeder to "make good" when an animal fails to produce for them. (Unless the breeder specifically states they are guaranteed to produce, which I do not know of ANY breeder that does that.)

No fit just offers a refund then when we have given up every other option I'd denied.
I expect a breeder to make good on honestly portraying information on an animal always no matter what.
And this will be my last post period. I have better things to do then play on drama island.

 

[SDiBiasi]

In the email, John said

I looked back in my records and 2011 was a bad year for eggs, I only had 4 out of 16 that had eggs that made it till hatching. She was one of them, she laid 13 eggs, 8 good eggs and 5 slugs. No eggs made it till hatching but that male cayenne fire that I was using had good clutches for a few years has not had any good eggs. He is now doing the school shows and is retired from breeding.

So it would seem that the eggs going bad was caulked up to being the males fault and not the female.

From what I gather, Tammy and Kevin wanted a breedable female. I believe that is what John sold to them. She was of breedable age and size when sold.

 

[Mystic Exotics]

No fit just offers a refund then when we have given up every other option I'd denied.
I expect a breeder to make good on honestly portraying information on an animal always no matter what.
And this will be my last post period. I have better things to do then play on drama island.

Did he guarantee that the female would produce viable babies for you?

In the email, John said

So it would seem that the eggs going bad was caulked up to being the males fault and not the female.

From what I gather, Tammy and Kevin wanted a breedable female. I believe that is what John sold to them. She was of breedable age and size when sold.

^^This.

 

[Fangthane]

No fit just offers a refund then when we have given up every other option I'd denied.
I expect a breeder to make good on honestly portraying information on an animal always no matter what.
And this will be my last post period. I have better things to do then play on drama island.

The seller went above and beyond by even making the initial refund offer. Had you not been blinded by the dollar signs from potential future offspring, you could have very easily gotten your money back last year. Since you opted to keep the animal, you forfeited the right to keep whining about it. Very few offers are completely open-ended. Ultimately, you received exactly what you paid for, and chose to keep it. End of story. Also, considering your choice not to disclose in your own ad what you believe to be a defect in the snake's ability to produce viable eggs, your various spiels are laughably disingenuous and hypocritical.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

1) There was no guarantee that the animal would breed, let produce viable offspring.

2) He offered you a refund (long after any guarantee would have expired), and you declined.

3) The way you worded your e-mail, you were NOT up for negotiations on what a good resolution would be after the second year. The full refund was the only thing that would be acceptable to you, and anything short of that would have produced a similar result to what we're seeing now. On John's website (which lists his full terms and conditions), the only guarantee he makes is a 7 day guarantee of health and sexing. This term has been fulfilled. He "owes" you nothing.

 

[Lucille]

being upfront and honest is best

You should be ashamed of yourself for writing something like that, after the way this all started with a whisper campaign where you you tried to tear up this seller in a posted thread without mentioning his name, but then supplied his name to those who asked privately. To me, that is dishonest and cowardly.

 

[exar15xe]

You should be ashamed of yourself for writing something like that, after the way this all started with a whisper campaign where you you tried to tear up this seller in a posted thread without mentioning his name, but then supplied his name to those who asked privately. To me, that is dishonest and cowardly.

No I am not ashamed and neither is Tammy she asked for friends console you call it secret campaign its called by honest people asking for help discretely, and without detail. she went about diplomatically and the only people who should be ashamed are those that reached out to Tammy and pretended to be her friend to earn her trust so she would tell them who it was. Shame on them. She only spoke to Christen about it thinking she had a friend to talk to but beware who you talk to they may go behind your back and stab it like she did.

I have never sold an animal and not disclosed all the information I knew about it and never will.

I see though you are a regular on the boi for stirring things up miss perfect. So I expect nothing less from someone like you.

1) There was no guarantee that the animal would breed, let produce viable offspring.

2) He offered you a refund (long after any guarantee would have expired), and you declined.

3) The way you worded your e-mail, you were NOT up for negotiations on what a good resolution would be after the second year. The full refund was the only thing that would be acceptable to you, and anything short of that would have produced a similar result to what we're seeing now. On John's website (which lists his full terms and conditions), the only guarantee he makes is a 7 day guarantee of health and sexing. This term has been fulfilled. He "owes" you nothing.

The seller went above and beyond by even making the initial refund offer. Had you not been blinded by the dollar signs from potential future offspring, you could have very easily gotten your money back last year. Since you opted to keep the animal, you forfeited the right to keep whining about it. Very few offers are completely open-ended. Ultimately, you received exactly what you paid for, and chose to keep it. End of story. Also, considering your choice not to disclose in your own ad what you believe to be a defect in the snake's ability to produce viable eggs, your various spiels are laughably disingenuous and hypocritical.

Ya and I should have taken the refund, I was silly to think that we would be doing honest and open business with someone, that this was a business relationship and leaving as "we'll keep trying" meant no. I only after 2 yrs ever did we say anything at all about any kind of repair ever! And now were the bad guys right

Everyone's so quick to say we are wrong for not disclosing in an add something bl bla bla, right but we did to those who inquired on the animal. On the other hand John did not at all ever and I guess that's ok, right. We actually completed a transaction for the animal but its ok he not disclose there may be a problem with the animal she bred and the eggs didn't survive and so on.... No

And that's the point he never disclosed information he should have morally and ethically felt the need to disclose. So dollars or morals? I see

I guess I know why he posted it here because he is gona stand on his reputation and us being a little fish in the sea will just get slashed so he doesn't have to do the moral thing ok I see. And he won't even be acknowledging any mistake just leaving his dogs to do it.

Did he guarantee that the female would produce viable babies for you?

^^This.

No like I said don't ask don't tell! Don't worry I know who is shady who is the drama queens and will crop and twists post to make you

Post the drama whatever

 

[SDiBiasi]

Kevin,

It would seem that you aren't even reading your own proof that you provided. He said she did breed but the eggs went bad. Other eggs that were sired by the fire went bad too. So he retired him from breeding. No where do I see in your proof that he deceived you or Tammy.

Also, my definition of friends must be way off. Tammy hadn't posted any thing on cs.com for months. However, she went on there venting about morals and business to everyone (open forum, it wasn't posted just for her friends). She even stated in the beginning of the pm back that she would tell because she felt people needed to be warned about it all.

This could of gone totally different from the start had it been approached with maturity. One side is calling names and trying to belittle the other and everyone else who has posted. One side brought it out because his name was being drug through the mud in a round about way.

Honestly, I think things would of went differently had a demand not be made for a full refund, but rather to work something out since the female wasn't interested in breeding.
What you posted made things really clear how it all went down.

 

[exar15xe]

From the very beginning Tammy had phone conversations with John asking about the animal including about breeding and he never mentioned it bred. But of course we don't have recordings of our conversations. I cant post things about phone conversations because I don't have "proof". And cause I'm the little guy no one is going to believe me.

We should have never trusted people do business the same way we do. Morals and ethics first before dollars. Before any animal leave our possession the potential new owner will now everything about it whether they ask about it or not.

 

[RichsBallPythons]

So i guess in the Buyers view, every person ever bought a Female Desert Ball Python is due a refund!!!

You win some you lose some, its the joys of breeding animals.

 

[Mystic Exotics]

My reply in red

No I am not ashamed and neither is Tammy she asked for friends console by posting a public rantyou call it secret campaign its called by honest people asking for help discretely, and without detail. she was quick to offer detail when askedshe went about diplomatically and the only people who should be ashamed are those that reached out to Tammy and pretended to be her friend to earn her trust so she would tell them who it was. Shame on them. She only spoke to Christen about it thinking she had a friend to talk to but beware who you talk to they may go behind your back and stab it like she did.
I have never sold an animal and not disclosed all the information I knew about it and never will. But you placed an ad for the same animal indicationg that someone might have use for her, not disclosing on the ad that you failed to produce babies with her after a couple eyars of trying. That is my point.

I see though you are a regular on the boi for stirring things up miss perfect. So I expect nothing less from someone like you.







Ya and I should have taken the refund, I was silly to think that we would be doing honest and open business with someone, that this was a business relationship and leaving as "we'll keep trying" meant no. I only after 2 yrs ever did we say anything at all about any kind of repair ever! And now were the bad guys right
He didn't have to offer the refund a year after selling the female to you, but he did.

Everyone's so quick to say we are wrong for not disclosing in an add something bl bla bla, right but we did to those who inquired on the animal. On the other hand John did not at all ever and I guess that's ok, right. We actually completed a transaction for the animal but its ok he not disclose there may be a problem with the animal she bred and the eggs didn't survive and so on.... No

And that's the point he never disclosed information he should have morally and ethically felt the need to disclose. So dollars or morals? I see
It was already stated that the male used was proven to be the problem, in other breedings, & he was since retired from breeding.


I guess I know why he posted it here because he is gona stand on his reputation and us being a little fish in the sea will just get slashed so he doesn't have to do the moral thing ok I see. And he won't even be acknowledging any mistake just leaving his dogs to do it.
What mistake was that? He sold you a breedable female. A year later, when you initially had problems getting her to breed (which is out of his control) he offered a refund, which most breeders won't do. That right there proves he IS a good person to work with. It's not his fault that you were not able to get her to breed with your male.


No like I said don't ask don't tell! Don't worry I know who is shady who is the drama queens and will crop and twists post to make you

Post the drama whatever

 

[Mystic Exotics]

From the very beginning Tammy had phone conversations with John asking about the animal including about breeding and he never mentioned it bred. But of course we don't have recordings of our conversations. I cant post things about phone conversations because I don't have "proof". And cause I'm the little guy no one is going to believe me.

We should have never trusted people do business the same way we do. Morals and ethics first before dollars. Before any animal leave our possession the potential new owner will now everything about it whether they ask about it or not.

Do you offer a full refund on any animal that people buy from you that they intend to breed, but it won't breed for them?