Thanks for letting me know the links were off, Harald. Here is the link to the thread and below is the email correspondence between Jereme James (Heronboy) and me.
http://www..net/reptile-business-inquiries/48624-not-americas-finest-moment.html
-------
From: jereme james <
[email protected]>
Date: Wed, Oct 02, 2013 9:34 pm
To: John Woolard Reptiles <
[email protected]>
John,
Sorry to have to send a email however, it really seems that are availability to talk at the same time has not been limited the past few days. I had a long conversation with Jenna today ( she is the person caring for your ball pythons) in regards to the two animals I sent. Unfortunately, the conversation left me with more questions than answers on how the ended up with her and feel its better not to speculate on how they arrived but, to be happy their ok. That being said I have no doubt that she is an honest person with great knowledge on keeping ball pythons. She informed me that they are being quarantined, at proper temps. and offered clean water. She also said that their health appeared to be good after they "settled in" .
After thought and hearing your concerns on the general wellbeing of the animals I would prefer the animals sent back to me so I can quarantine them, feed them and make sure there in the same condition as they were on 9-23-2013. I assume this should take no more than two weeks at which point I would send them back to you. In the event that you would prefer me to send them directly to you I will ship to you without hesitation. However, would be hard to offer same guarantee on shipping and wellbeing without packing, seeing and caring for prior to you receiving them. Again it is my attention to make sure you are happy with whatever is decided and I appreciate your understanding and patients.
Thank You,
Jereme James
From: <
[email protected]>
Date: Thu, Oct 03, 2013 11:12 am
To: "jereme james" <
[email protected]>
Thank you for the email, Jereme.
I hear what you're saying - I tried calling you back several times yesterday after you'd tried to reach me and it was phone tag at its best (or maybe worst - lol).
I spoke to Robyn (SYR) at length yesterday also and, while I'm happy the snakes are okay, I'm still baffled by the whole thing. Robyn said there was nothing in the box that could link the animals to you or to me - which seemed off. Everything in this whole, sad situation, is unfortunate. As I expressed to you yesterday, Jereme, my main concern now is that the snakes are, for lack of better terms, tainted. I got advice from a couple of people, including a veterinarian, and the conclusion that I've come to is that I would like to have the snakes shipped to you and request a refund. I certainly did not want to do that, but I can't risk my collection or males that would be with these females after they were MIA for a week and then to learn they were at an animal rescue. If the circumstances were more simple I could see adding the snakes into my collection after a short duration, but not with things as they are now. Maybe a year from now, if these girls are doing well, we can certainly talk more about me purchasing them from you then, but, as it stands now, I will regretfully need to ask that you take the animals back into your possession and that you please issue me a refund.
Again, I'm sorry this whole ordeal happened and I hope it has in no way influenced our working relationship and future dealings. You produce some great animals and I wouldn't hesitate to business with you (that's why I felt comfortable in the beginning).
I wish you the best and look forward to talking with you more soon.
John
* If you would be willing to deposit the money into my Wells Fargo account there, that would be ideal. My account number is XXXXXXXXXX
There are 2 locations in Long Beach
1) 111 W OCEAN BLVD STE 100
LONG BEACH, CA, 90802
Phone: 562-901-4000
2) 251 E WILLOW ST STE A
LONG BEACH, CA, 90806
Phone: 562-981-5880
From: Jereme AFB <
[email protected]>
Date: Thu, Oct 03, 2013 8:36 pm
To: "<
[email protected]>" <
[email protected]>
I do not want you think I am avoiding thou. I just need a minute to figure out how to make this unfortunate situation amicable.
Thank You,
Jereme James
From: John Woolard Reptiles <
[email protected]>
Date: October 4, 2013 at 12:13:22 PM CDT
To: Jereme AFB <
[email protected]>
Subject: Re: update
Jereme,
I appreciate you letting me know that you weren't ignoring me, but I really think we need to wrap this up. I've been waiting to receive my snakes since September 24th and here it is October 4th.
I'm glad the snakes are okay and that they will be back in your possession, but I honestly don't think there is anything else left to figure out.
I hate that all of this happens as well, and I could have really used these girls, but now I'm ready to move on.
Thanks,
John
From: jereme james <
[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Oct 04, 2013 1:18 pm
To: John Woolard Reptiles <
[email protected]>
John,
I understand your position clearly. You did nothing wrong, paid as promised, and had no control or blame on the unfortunate circumstances fed-ex created. However, I do not agree that either party should hold the full burden of these circumstances fed-ex created. I as the seller did everything correctly as yourself the buyer. On good faith I am willing to work with you however, am not willing to agree on the terms you proposed. Nor would I expect you or any other seller to do the same if the roles were switched and I was the buyer.
John these are your animals and became your animals upon agreement of terms prior to shipping. However, I am willing to take all reasonable steps to work with you in hopes to created an on going business relationship with you. I am up for ideas and suggested and have came up with the following suggestions.
1) I keep, feed, and care for the animals until you feel comfortable receiving them and or I report that they are in a proper health condition.
2) I keep feed, and care for the animals until I feel that there safe and clean at which point I sell them. All monies collected up to original purchase price will be returned to you upon collection minus new shipping cost.
3) The animals are shipped to you directly from the animal rescue. If this option is chosen I cannot offer my guarantee on the animals condition
Again these are only suggestions and I am completely open to your input. I humbly plea with you to consider such options and allow me to work this out with you.
From: <
[email protected]>
Date: Sat, Oct 05, 2013 9:48 am
To: "jereme james"
[email protected]
Jereme,
I don't think you can suggest that taking the animals back into your possession is a burden, especially after saying how difficult it was to sell them. I suppose the thing that is most upsetting to me in this is that the onus is on me because I chose to buy snakes from you. I don't expect all breeders to do things the way I do, but I have learned over the years that my integrity and maintaining great relationships with my customers are my top priorities. For the first time ever since breeding any snakes, I had one die after a month at a customer's place (not a clue why -doesn't add up), but instead of hassling him, I am making it right with him. Similarly, my best friend shipped $10,000 worth of snakes to a customer last year and they were DOA. He too made it right even though it cost him a lot of wasted money on insurance and snakes.
It is pretty well accepted in the industry that the shipper assumes responsibility for the animals and since there was an apparent issue with the labeling of the package then it seems even more so in this case. For me it's like this...I bought snakes from you, AFB, and they are no longer snakes from you or your facility. I pass by tables at every reptile show and read right pass ads on kingsnake because I know that the animals, while genetically may be what I want, are not of the quality or from the conditions I want for my collection. I had a guy once sell me a snake, probably 5 years ago, and then, after dragging his feet to ship, said he was going to ship it to Big Daddy of Power House Reptiles and that I could get the snake from him. It should come as no surprise that I immediately told the guy that this wasn't acceptable and that I wouldn't take animals that were from PHR's facility. This situation is very similar in my mind. After the snakes were MIA for a week we find out that they were in a rescue facility in Arkansas. A good analogy is that it's like ordering a new car and then finding out that it was left outside for a week with the windows open.
If you refund my money, as requested, then what have you lost? If you refuse to refund my money, then you can also ask yourself what you might lose. My hope is that you'll do the right thing.
John
From: Jereme AFB <
[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Oct 08, 2013 8:28 am
To: "<
[email protected]>" <
[email protected]>
I spoke to Jenna last night ands he was able to send the animals back to me last night. I will report back to you upon their air ail with an update on their well being.
As a reply to your email I do not understand or appreciate the speculation of any fault of mine. The underlined assumption that it was a label issue is only a theory created by lower level employees of fed-ex that upper management does not feel was the issue. Nor do I understand your lack of desire to work with me in this situation. You ask me to consider what I may loose however, it is you who is not willing to make a bad situation better and forcing me into a corner.
As a seller I have a basic responsibility to deliver what has been paid for. It is not my attention to deviate from such agreement. In the event you refuse to receive such merchandise purchased I as the seller am not obligated to return monies paid. However, I again humbly plea with you to help come up with an a amicable solution.
Thank You,
Jereme James
From: jereme james <
[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 3:47 pm
To: John Woolard Reptiles <
[email protected]>
as scheduled I received the snakes tuesday oct. 8th the clown looks great and the sterling mojo yb is in shed. I will offer the clown food tomorrow and the other in a week or two. I also got a chain of custody report from Fed-ex and it was good news. The package was opened friday and brought to a museum that evening. The museum had no idea what to do with them and gave them to the rescue saturday. The rescue had them quarantined until shipping them to me. As said in prior emails I would prefer to hold on to them for a few weeks to insure no potential issues prior to sending them to you.
Thank You,
Jereme James
From: <
[email protected]>
Date: Sat, Oct 12, 2013 6:28 am
To: "Jereme AFB" <
[email protected]>
Jereme,
You completely ignored everything in my last email to you. I'm glad that snakes are back in your care and I would like for them to stay there and for you to please refund my money as requested. I did buy the snakes from you, but even if you send them to me, they are no longer the snakes I purchased. I bought snakes to breed this season and now that is not an option and I am not blaming you about it - I just don't think its my obligation to take them since they are no longer what was advertised and I still don't have them after they should have been delivered on October 24th.
I'll be honest, Jereme, I am shocked at how unwilling you are to work with your customer. It is pretty much a foreign concept to me that you would rather fight me about these two snakes instead of going out of your way to remedy the situation - even if it costs you a sell. I would bend over backwards for my customers and if someone was in a position, as I am, then I would rather be able to keep good relations with her/him and have my reputation continue to be strong.
I am not okay waiting another few weeks for you to get these snakes settled in and then shipped again. So, Jereme, I'm kindly asking you again to please refund my money and make right on this situation.
John
From: Jereme AFB <
[email protected]>
Date: Mon, Oct 14, 2013 9:18 am
To: "<
[email protected]>" <
[email protected]>
John,
I am equally complexed on your position on this matter as you are on mine. I do not understand how you can claim that you are not getting what you bought. After understanding the chain of custody and the current well being of the animals. The clown took a meal without hesitation and the sterling mojave yellow belly just shed they both are mite and disease free. These animals have the same ability to breed today as they did the day I sent them. Your position that there ability to breed has been compromised has me lost for words.
You implying that I am not doing the right thing is a bit self served and it is me asking you to do the right thing. Buyer and seller both have a responsibility and a moral obligation to do the right thing. If I was in your shoes I would never make the demands that you or making nor do I know anyone that would.
Again I plea with you to do the right thing and work with me here I do not like these types of letters or the negative energy they will potentially bring.
Thank You,
Jereme James
INTRODUCE THIRD PARTY AFTER CONVERSATION IN TINLEY
From: John Woolard Reptiles <
[email protected]>
Date: October 14, 2013 at 9:40:03 AM CDT
To: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX>
Subject: Shipping issue
XXXXXXX,
Thank you for taking the time to talk with me this weekend. Jereme is still not working with me (received another email minutes ago) and I wanted to know if he would be okay if I mentioned your name and how we spoke of the situation. He insists these snakes are my responsibility and I'm honestly losing patience with his lack of understanding and unwillingness to work with me.
Thanks,
John
From: XXXXXXXXXXXXX>
Date: Fri, Oct 18, 2013 12:00 pm
To: John Woolard <
[email protected]>
Sorry for the delay John, (*sentence omitted to protect anonymity)
I want to be cautious about the language here, (*words omitted to protect anonymity) I am sure you understand.
It is not my place to scold Jereme or insist he do something.
But you can tell him that you and I have talked and "it seems to be the easiest solution in this unfortunate situation is for Jereme to give a refund on the animals never received. I understand your (John) situation in not wanting to bring animals in house that have had a stop in caging outside of Jereme's facility. It is a very odd situation, but I am glad the animals were recovered. If Jereme makes the refund, I would think that would preserve the relationship and encourage other business moving forward."
Can you work with that quote that "happened" between you and I?
XXXXXXXXX
From: John Woolard Reptiles <
[email protected]>
Date: October 18, 2013 at 1:08:06 PM CDT
To: Jereme AFB <
[email protected]>
Subject: Re: update
Jereme,
Regardless of circumstance that prevented the snakes I purchased from being delivered to me as guaranteed, by you the shipper, on September 24th, it is now October 18th, the snakes are back in your possession and you have not come through for me as your customer for nearly a month now.
I spoke to XXXXXXX about this at length and his take is that the easiest solution in this unfortunate situation is for you to give a refund on the animals I never received. He understands the situation and me not wanting to bring in animals that have had a stop in caging outside of your facility. He agrees that this is a very odd situation, but he's glad the animals were recovered and are back with you.
So, here is where I am with this. I'm not asking you to agree with me about my concern for bringing in animals that were MIA for a week and then discovered to be in a rescue facility, but I am making one final request for you to refund my money for animals I did not receive when I purchased them and that are now back in your possession several weeks after they should have been delivered to me.
If you choose not to refund my money, however, then you leave me no choice but to make this matter public. I also have the option of making the legal matter, but I'd like to avoid all of this and would hope that we can settle this matter privately. So, Jereme, I'm asking you again, as I have for weeks now, to refund my money for the animals I never received.
John
From: Jereme AFB <
[email protected]>
Date: Wed, Oct 23, 2013 9:24 am
To: John Woolard Reptiles <
[email protected]>
John,
I apologize for the delayed response. As you know the reptiles are a hobby of mine, my day job consumes in excess of 80 hours per week. I did not want to send another hastily written email under the assumption that we could readily hash out our differences, and I have just now found the time to clearly and coherently put my thoughts to paper if you will. Please allow me to address each of your concerns and grievances as you stated on letter dated 10-18 3013
"Regardless of circumstance that prevented the snakes I purchased from being delivered to me as guaranteed, by you the shipper, on September 24th, "
Response: There was no written or verbal statement validating this statement, there was also never any conversation or text implying this.
"it is now October 18th, the snakes are back in your possession and you have not come through for me as your customer for nearly a month now."
Response: The reason this has not been resolved for a month, is because we disagree on the basic premise of the dispute. There is no delay on my part, I am happy to ship the moment you are willing to receive.
"I spoke to XXXXXXXXX about this at length and his take is that the easiest solution in this unfortunate situation is for you to give a refund on the animals I never received. He understands the situation and me not wanting to bring in animals that have had a stop in caging outside of your facility. He agrees that this is a very odd situation, but he's glad the animals were recovered and are back with you."
Response: This is an issue for me. I have spoken XXXXXXXX via phone as well as via email. Not only was his response the antithesis of what you're reporting, but he outright denied making these statements. This concerns me: the premise of your dispute hinges itself upon a moral framework. I now have valid concerns caused by your outright willingness to fabricate information, this coupled with my original disagreement with how to handle the issue surely doesn't make me feel less confident about my chosen course.
"So, here is where I am with this. I'm not asking you to agree with me about my concern for bringing in animals that were MIA for a week and then discovered to be in a rescue facility, but I am making one final request for you to refund my money for animals I did not receive when I purchased them and that are now back in your possession several weeks after they should have been delivered to me. If you choose not to refund my money, however, then you leave me no choice but to make this matter public. I also have the option of making the legal matter, but I'd like to avoid all of this and would hope that we can settle this matter privately. So, Jereme, I'm asking you again, as I have for weeks now, to refund my money for the animals I never received."
Response: I am confused by the entire premise here. Let's follow the chain of custody: Animals were mine, you purchased them, I delivered them to a carrier at which point relinquishing ownership of the animals, the carrier creates a blunder, I put in my due diligence to recover the lost shipment (successfully I may add), you refuse the shipment over some hyperbolic scenario but expect me to assimilate this theoretical risk into my collection? I graciously offer to quarantine the animals, ensure their health and feeding habits and then re-ship. All of which were not only rejected, but the responses were laced with veiled threats of making this public all the while offering zero effort towards an amicable resolution of our disagreement and littering your responses without outright fabrications? I just want to make sure I am keeping up with all of what happened here?
I will offer once again--in an effort to come to a resolution-credit towards other inventory of an equal value which may include but not limited to other clown female, pastel clown, super pastel yellow belly all of with are well within range of breeding this upcoming season.
As a final note, I want to be clear that I will not be bullied or threatened. If you are unwilling to resolve this issue in a mature and reasonable fashion, then I will have to assume you are relinquishing your property. Pursuant to California Law Sections 1834.5,I am extending the clock to begin today affording you 14 days to accept your property or it will be deemed abandoned at which point it will be donated to the upcoming USARK auction.
Thank You,
Jereme James
ALL THREE PARTIES INCLUDED IN THE FINAL EMAIL
From: John Woolard Reptiles <
[email protected]>
Date: October 25, 2013 at 11:38:38 AM CDT
To: Jereme AFB <
[email protected]>
Cc: XXXXXXXXX
Subject: Re: update
Jereme,
I wanted to make sure you knew that I posted a thread on the about the shipping situation and your unwillingness to make right on the snakes and issue me a refund.
I did not address your claim about XXXXXXXX's denial of what I wrote or your claim that's it's fabricated because this thread is not about XXXXXXX and he doesn't need to be dragged into it any more than he has. I would have sent that email to sooner, but I wanted to make sure I didn't misrepresent XXXXXXXX's position. That's just not how I do things man.
So, I have XXXXXXXX's email that I quoted to you and if you care to discuss that part of the issue further I'll ask that you do so directly with him.
My hope remains that you will decide to do the right thing and issue me a refund as I have requested numerous times. If you've spent the money and just don't have it, then please let me know that you have and that you're at least willing to start paying me back.
I try to be a reasonable guy, Jereme, and I don't think anything I've requested throughout this ordeal has been unreasonable at all. If you read that thread and the related threads on the matter then you will see how others see things in a very similar light as I do.
I implore you to turn this unfortunate situation around and make right on it.
There's still time.
Thanks
John
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