Bad Guy Pet harbor in Boardman Ohio

[EdwardK]

This store has always been disgusting to me, dogs in cages with nothing but wire under their paws and usually have to make a scene for them to clean up diarrhea in the cages with 5 dogs.

According to the USDA, the wiring under their paws is standard care provided that the feet of the puppy/dog cannot fall through and get caught.
Additionally the mesh allows fecal material and urine to pass through and keeps the dog/puppy from having to lie in their waste until it gets cleaned.
Maybe this will help you to understand that what you don't like is not only legal so it really doesn't rise to the level of abuse that you are alleging (as abuse as is by definition illegal). This may help to educate you as to potential violations https://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/downloads/breeders/dogs/9-Housing-Part-2-3-2016-Slides.pdf

Small dogs and big dogs crammed in tiny cages with nothing but wire under their feet (like always) most had diarrhea and some was flat out plain liquid.

You do realize that diarrhea in and of itself doesn't necessarily mean that the puppies are ill as it could also easily be due to changing from the food which the dogs were accustomed or even to excitement.

An example of the literature around this
http://www.jarvm.com/articles/Vol9Iss3/Wakshlag.pdf

Wakshlag, Joseph J., et al. "Negative Fecal Characteristics Are Associated with pH and Fecal Flora Alterations During Dietary Change in Dog." International Journal of Applied Research inVeterinary Medicine 9.3 (2011): 278.

Based on the limited evidence presented I fail to see where the care of the dogs/puppies meets the bar to establish abuse/poor care. Now before you attempt to then paint me as pro-puppy mill etc I'm going to point out that I have evaluated your claims against that of the established standards and you have failed to establish your case as anything other than you disagree with it (particularly with the inclusion of excessive hyperbole).

some comments

Ed

 

[Chris Kennard]

Nicely put, and thank you. I did not see any deplorable conditions in those photos. I certainly didn't see sick animals. Some need a little work, I agree. From what I saw, this thread reflects what everyone here is far from oblivious to. It's hard to decipher between a poster's boredom or passion. The photos certainly didn't support the allegations, in my opinion, but I dodn't rule out the veracity of those allegations. Until two people muddied the water. In any case, I'd love to here from the person who Elexis confronted at the pet shop. I doubt I'd be suprised.

 

[JayBoa1372]

I do notice the water bowl the dragon is physically in has some green on it, but it looks like they have hard water and have hard water stains in the bowls. I used to work at a pet store and if the water was not treated, it left awful stains in the rock/ceramic bowls. The other green in the dragons alternate bowl looks like salad pieces.

Also, as most of us know, any snake can have a bad shed. It could be very much related to being housed in an aquarium instead of a pvc cage or any other reptile caging. But at the same time, who is to say that the ball wasn't going through a bad shed before they bought it, or had a bad shed as a result of the previous owners care (especially seeing as they did just get the snake)? I do not really see anything that appears to be abuse in terms of the reptiles.

The dogs do not look malnourished or anything of that nature, but there are also limited pictures; as well as the lack of pictures referring to the diarrhea. The most important evidence of your claims is missing, which would have been the nasty diarrhea.

There are ways to prevent business to such places, and that's to not purchase from there. Buying rodents does nothing but help them. Order online, or look for an alternate source.

Long story short, I think it would be wise to just post more evidence if you're going to make such a bold claim.

 

[Chris Kennard]

Clean cage. Weighty snake (kinda looks gravid?). Nothing to see here folks...move along. But if wants to take this and run with it, no snake should be without a hide box. But if I were a pet shop owner, I'd remove them during business hours. Just sayin'.

 

[caffeinecynic]

While I am not a fan of Elexis, the attached picture does appear to have little black specs in the water bowl, which supports the conclusion of mites. It could be something else, but from this pic, I would definitely wonder. The snake is too dark/far away and has too much stuck shed for me to come to a conclusion of whether any are on it and I don't see any mites in any of the other water bowls, but this one does seem like it has them.

 

[Lucille]

Wait I said it right the first time. Been so stressed lately I'm losing my mind. But anyways I'll go get the pictures of diarrhea later on, until then and after that I'm not responding to either of you again.

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I think another round of pictures would be good. See if you can get a closeup on the waterbowl specks in the above picture. I think that the various requests made for more pictures is perfectly valid, and I'm glad to hear that you will be providing them. Responding to valid requests is good no matter who makes the request, but in general, not responding to bait is also a good move.

In today's world, there are many situations that promote stress, and some stress is inevitable but too much is unhealthy. I suggest for your own health and well being that you try to decrease your stress levels now. When I am very stressed, physical activity helps- a long bike ride, some gardening, etc. but see what works for you to make you happier, and healthier.

 

[DavidBeard]

You guys might be fans of Alexis but trying to justify those pictures makes YOU look worse. Those conditions suck. Plain and simple. Them being a retail store shouldn't get them a pass on the husbandry and condition of their animals.

 

[Mike Schultz]

Looks like 99% of pet stores. Not excellent care by any stretch of the words, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it "abuse."

Personally I don't blame the employee for responding to your attitude, he probably gets paid $8.50 an hour to help old ladies put dog food in their car and here is some nerd freaking out at him because one of the ball pythons has a stuck shed. And he called another employee to help fix the problem as soon as you told him, and you call him snotty. Ha!

 

[ElexisC]

Here's 2 different people saying those are the same snakes so there's proof they did not just get them. I'll ask Shannon when her interview was to get a more exact date on that, but the other says at least Monday. Yall may not like me but I have NEVER lied. I have no reason to. I posted this so people on my area who Google the store can be warned. Ive also been contacted by email from several people one including a retired humane agent from my area saying this isn't new that the owner was shut down under petland and opened up as pet harbor to keep operating. I can post that too if you like.

 

[ElexisC]

According to the USDA, the wiring under their paws is standard care provided that the feet of the puppy/dog cannot fall through and get caught.
Additionally the mesh allows fecal material and urine to pass through and keeps the dog/puppy from having to lie in their waste until it gets cleaned.
Maybe this will help you to understand that what you don't like is not only legal so it really doesn't rise to the level of abuse that you are alleging (as abuse as is by definition illegal). This may help to educate you as to potential violations https://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/downloads/breeders/dogs/9-Housing-Part-2-3-2016-Slides.pdf



You do realize that diarrhea in and of itself doesn't necessarily mean that the puppies are ill as it could also easily be due to changing from the food which the dogs were accustomed or even to excitement.

An example of the literature around this
http://www.jarvm.com/articles/Vol9Iss3/Wakshlag.pdf

Wakshlag, Joseph J., et al. "Negative Fecal Characteristics Are Associated with pH and Fecal Flora Alterations During Dietary Change in Dog." International Journal of Applied Research inVeterinary Medicine 9.3 (2011): 278.

Based on the limited evidence presented I fail to see where the care of the dogs/puppies meets the bar to establish abuse/poor care. Now before you attempt to then paint me as pro-puppy mill etc I'm going to point out that I have evaluated your claims against that of the established standards and you have failed to establish your case as anything other than you disagree with it (particularly with the inclusion of excessive hyperbole).

some comments

Ed

I've seen soft poop sitting on top of the wire, I should have taken a picture of that too because there was a glob of it sitting in front of ones face that was laying down when we were in there.

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[ElexisC]

Don't wanna be too obvious.

Those photos were in the back, by the reptiles while no employees were around. The dogs are right in front of the employees, so nice try.

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[ElexisC]

I think another round of pictures would be good. See if you can get a closeup on the waterbowl specks in the above picture. I think that the various requests made for more pictures is perfectly valid, and I'm glad to hear that you will be providing them. Responding to valid requests is good no matter who makes the request, but in general, not responding to bait is also a good move.

In today's world, there are many situations that promote stress, and some stress is inevitable but too much is unhealthy. I suggest for your own health and well being that you try to decrease your stress levels now. When I am very stressed, physical activity helps- a long bike ride, some gardening, etc. but see what works for you to make you happier, and healthier.

Well thanks to bill I may not be able too. I was goimg to go yesterday but got incredibly busy with the kids and other personal matters.

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[ElexisC]

Gee, what a nice close up, downward angle picture that is. Shame she couldn't get even one of any of the mostly diarrhea ridden pens.

Regarding the mites, if that bowl was void of the many many black contaminates that are far too large to be mites then I would agree that there was a better possibility there are mites in the water. To me it looks like whatever the contaminate is, it has broken up into many pieces of many sizes. If you focus on the right side you will see what I mean. Of course the possibility exists still ,and maybe a very, very inexperienced keeper would panic, freak out, and alert the authorities, but even a keeper with the little intelligence it takes to do a little research would have it under control in no time at all.

Gilligan makes an excellent point regarding the hides ( I'm proud of you little buddy. We'll be off this island in no time ). I have been to, and vended, many many shows and never have I seen a snake displayed in a case that had a hide. I'm going to take it a step further and include that very very often, while on display for the purpose of a sale, many many vendors have more than one snake in a display case, again for the purpose of a sale. I'm sure there will be some inane retort that they are like that "24/7" but I give that the same amount of consideration as the claim the dogs are in the display cases "24/7"
So, in regards to the conditions shown here of this pet store. I am far more concerned about a pet owner who is not responsible enough to prevent a dog from an "unplanned" pregnancy than I am about, in what looks like a very clean pet store, one snake with a bad shed and possible mites. I have been a dog owner for over 45 years, a dozen at least and always multiple of each sexes at one time. Never, not ever, not even once have I or anyone in my household been so blatantly irresponsible that an "unplanned" pregnancy occurred, or any pregnancy for that matter.

I am far more concerned with someone who is so financially insecure that they cannot even live paycheck to paycheck without using $ that does not belong to them, on personal uses and not even for food for the animals BTW, of owning any pets whatsoever (except maybe a sea monkey, OMG so cool...). Once again (yawn...), a "deposit", regardless if it is "non refundable" or not, is not yours to spend until the item for sale has been delivered and received in an acceptable condition, which it had not yet been. (here's another "fun fact", pay pals "friends and family" option is not there for you to use to conduct business transactions, and/or pay your bills, and doing so is nothing short of "theft of services") How would someone in such poor financial shape deal with another "unplanned" event such as an accident, illness, wellness visit, or any of the many items that may require a visit to a vet? I mean "unplanned" events do happen. but I dont need to tell you that now do I. This store appears to be well organized and very clean. Clearly they have the means to maintain it in this manner.

And in response to comments made by ms craig, which I feel I have the right to address here, Once again (again, yawn,,,) Yes Yes Yes it true. I, Bill Zowak, was removed from a face book site for what amounted to almost 2 or 3 minutes ( I was so upset that it seemed like nearly 4). the reason was that Ms Elexis Craig, or does she prefer I use her fake scammer name of Elexis Ortiz ( sorry, I do not know the correct prefix for scammer names), after all, didnt she once state that the reason someone uses a fake name is that they are a scammer? Anyway, back to the most horrifying 2 or 3 minutes of my life, Elexis was kind enough to forward a very selective few words from a PM sent to her to an admin of said page ( I believed I used the "C" word. It wasnt so much meant as an insult as it was an observation, and it was very much a reply to comments she sent). Imagine for a moment, if you can, ms craig making claims for which she has no backing. I know, i know,,, hard to fathom. A few minutes later, once I forwarded the complete text, I was immediately reinstated and Elexis was banned and remains banned to this day. Elexis has been banned from multiple pages on face book. The only page I have been blocked from, that I am aware of anyway, is her page, which BTW I can visit anytime i so desire. Like yesterday, when I wanted to send the store owner pictures so that they would be sure to give Ms craig the attention she so desires,,,, and desires,,,, and desires.... and desires.....


Three quick side notes... First to the Admins and Mods. It may seem naive but I honestly thought that when i used the word Bulls**T it would automatically be "censored" so my apologies for that.

2nd, soon I am going to request I be addressed as "Bill Jolie" And I will be changing my name here accordingly. It is going to get out anyway so I am pleased to announce we are 'engaged" and this is the real reason Angelina dumped Brad. I just don't want to be confused with those scammers who use fake names for any reason other than my reason. It will be a long, long, long engagement (not sure why she wouldn't want to lock this "prize" up ASAP).

Lastly, I was wrong, one should not even own a Sea Monkey if they do not have the proper means to care for it.

Scammer? There you go again. My fiance's last name os Ortiz, when I am married that will be my name, gasp, such a scammer. Also my legal name is provided where it should be, so calling me a scammer when I'm hiding nothing makes YOU look bad.

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[ElexisC]

Looks like 99% of pet stores. Not excellent care by any stretch of the words, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it "abuse."

Personally I don't blame the employee for responding to your attitude, he probably gets paid $8.50 an hour to help old ladies put dog food in their car and here is some nerd freaking out at him because one of the ball pythons has a stuck shed. And he called another employee to help fix the problem as soon as you told him, and you call him snotty. Ha!

What attitude? We're you there to hear me calmly say "excuse me but I have some concerns about the reptiles, the one has stuck shed and should be sprayed at the least but soaked for 30 minutes because stuck shed can damage skin." He got snotty with the other employee not me. Also lied saying they got them the day before when I have witnesses that say they were there longer and the other employee saying they got them from a show. I'll look at the show dates and see which sunday was the last show.

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[Big Time Reptiles]

I've seen soft poop sitting on top of the wire, I should have taken a picture of that too because there was a glob of it sitting in front of ones face that was laying down when we were in there.

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Would of, Could of, Should of......

You were there taking photos, hoping to make a case here on the BOI at the time, Why didn't you?

Lynn Peterson
Big Time Reptiles

 

[DavidBeard]

Could you Please elaborate regarding the " those conditions suck" comment.

I'm not going to get into a pi$$ing contest with you, Bill. Seems like you've got a major personal bone to pick with some people on here, and seeing as how I'm not one of them....direct your contrite posts elsewhere.

Let me phrase it this way: would YOU purchase from that store? Or from someone who keeps their animals in such conditions (obvious lack of proper husbandry, stuck sheds can turn into big problems if not addressed, and they're solved by a magic substance called water! Who'd have thunk it?).

Again, if you think those animals are being well cared for, please state so here so that I can add you to my "do no do business with" portfolio. Because justifying neglect is tantamount to the neglect itself.

 

[ElexisC]

Both shows closest to us. So it's been since at least Sunday. Waiting for Shannon to answer when her interview was. Like I said i live here, this is nothing new and it's been going on for too long. If you're giving this store a pass because you dont like me or because it's retail give them an excuse to give subpar husbandry than that's pretty bad.

 

[ElexisC]

Would of, Could of, Should of......

You were there taking photos, hoping to make a case here on the BOI at the time, Why didn't you?

Lynn Peterson
Big Time Reptiles

Actually I wasn't hoping to make a case for the boi. I was taking photos to send to our humane society so they would go investigate. I didn't even think of posting on the boi at the time. I put it on fb and pur local Craigslist then decided to post to the boi even though I knew 3 people who just love to take shots at me would come justify it because it was myself that posted it.

 

[ElexisC]

So about 2 months. They also said the albino boa has had kites for TWO MONTHS. I asked how they were treating "I don't know" was the response because I was going to tell them what to use.

 

[Reptar]

So their mice were good enough for you guys to feed your reptiles? I don't know about you but if I go to a place to buy feeders and see conditions that are unacceptable to me I don't dare take a chance buying their feeders for my animals. I'm sorry but from these pics I don't see enough evidence to call this business neglectful.