Inquiry Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

[snowgyre]

If you have snakes developing lesions, Logan, you can have your vet take a 4mm biopsy from the area surrounding the lesion and send the tissue to Dr. Allender's lab for qPCR testing. Dr. Allender is very good about responding in a timely fashion to inquiries, I encourage your vet to contact him directly with any questions. Biopsy tissues and cotton swabs (generally used for wild venomous snakes) can be stored at -20C for up to 6 months or -80C indefinitely for testing. His faculty website with contact information is here: https://illinois.edu/ds/search?search_type=userid&search=mcallend&skinId=333

 

[Logan256]

Thanks for the link, Vanessa - I will definitely have my vet biopsy any lesions showing on any of the snakes and send them off, as well as perform other routine diagnostic tests. I'm particularly invested in getting answers at this point because in addition to the snakes in question, I have around 50 other reptiles (all CBB, all thriving), and even though I quarantine carefully and religiously, just the potential of having SFD infected snakes in the same general area (separate room, same house) is making me a bit uncomfortable.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Folks, this is not a husbandry thread, so try to curtail that a bit.

I also have to wonder why the people who position themselves in a stated position of caring about the side issue have not created a thread in a more appropriate area as instructed and linked it here as suggested. Almost like being informative is taking a backseat to combining the matter with spectacle.

I have seen off-topic posting in multiple forms continuing. Continued focus on the illness and its potentially broader importance versus the aspect of the named party in the thread's title. Profanity. Mention of other businesses for some reason. Posting about one's own prices versus that of others. Breeder versus reseller operation principle stuff. Now husbandry (which I have been okay with to a degree, but it needs to be curbed now and hopefully self-curbed).

It would be most effective to operate within the framework that has been established for this site. Otherwise, you can end up clipping your own wings. The BOI is a valuable tool, but pretending it is acceptable or appropriate to use a ruler to drive nails here does not make it so.

If anyone is aching to earn infractions, I will make some time in my schedule to oblige, but I hope to not have to because I hope such a person will reason oneself out of the work it takes to earn such.

 

[tlmoon]

The fact that you squeak out a meager existence by peddling b-grade animals to unsuspecting 14 year olds doesn't mean you should be exempt from regulations designed to protect our collective wildlife resource, or our private collections. (See, both of us can play that off hand, denigrating comment game, can't we?)

Now, lets please get this thread back on topic: Underground Reptiles and SFD.

OP, I do not disagree with you at all on the potential for a devastating problem going on...but you are undermining your own credibility with snarky responses like this. This issue has the potential to have enormous consequences so of course people are going to question and even disagree. My unsolicited advice - don't take it personally when you get questions. Evidence speaks for itself. Some people aren't going to agree no matter what and no need to get into battles with them. It actually calls into question your motivations when you denigrate someone who doesn't agree with you. It's just not necessary, and counterproductive to the issue at hand.

I can understand why you posted this in the BOI but understand, this forum is for feedback on buyers and sellers and you did name Underground. If you've read many threads you will see there is a common theme of posters needing to show some proof. If everyone just took everyone else's word for things, it would be a pretty meaningless forum, right?

Anyway, off my soapbox...

 

[tlmoon]

Sorry Nick, posted right when you did. In the interests of keeping the BOI thread on track, I would ask the OP: what is it you want Underground to do? Have you asked them to do testing, etc? How would you like to see them handle this issue?

I'm not taking their side at all, just trying to keep this in alignment with what the BOI is for.

 

[Robert Walker]

Moderators have now asked twice (#34, 56) that the sickness issue be moved off the BOI and to a discussion thread, yet here we find ourselves, still no discussion thread.

Behind the scenes, if you are unaware, infractions have been and are being passed out. A BOI report supposedly about "Underground Reptiles" has morphed into unrelated tangent fighting, self-promotion, swearing and off topic discussions.

This is simple, make it about Underground Reptiles OR don't be upset about the infractions when they come. Fair is fair.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

I recognized your post for being within bounds, Theresa. No worries.

 

[EdwardK]

Are you sure your not out to trash a company and are going it in around about way? Your including a lot of conjecture on Underground's business practices in your argument.

- The often misidentify the water snakes on their it makes me wonder if they even know the species they are dealing with, or if they just hope their customers don't

Conjecture; do you have proof that this is a conscious business decision? A smile emoticon doesn't mean that your not deliberately casting aspersions.

Regarding captive bred vs wild caught - Places like Underground often pay "collectors" - sometimes also referred to as "winos" - for wild caught animals. If the snakes are pregnant they are tossed into cattle tanks and kept crowded together until their babies are born. So hundreds or even thousands of babies are "captive born" in a very disease rich environment.

Do you have physical proof of this in the form of pictures or is this more of your conjecture on the company? Was your claims about the extirpation of massasaugas in Illinois based on the same level of proof? I'm still waiting for your proof that your claim is what happened in Illinois.

The skin lesions or pustules showing on your brown water snake do look like those on my greens. But visual comparison is only part of the diagnostic process. Unfortunately the fungus species in question (.) doesn't culture well, so your local vet won't be able to diagnose SFD accurately for you. (Its too slow growing and overwhelmed by bacteria when cultured. Even treated with antibiotics other types of fungi sometimes outgrow the SFD fungus) So they will probably have to talk to Dr Allender's lab at the U of Illinois. They can instruct on how to collect the samples, process and ship. Analysis there is done by a specific genetic test (qPCR) developed by Dr. Allender.

So it could be the same as blister disease since the cultures routinely showed bacterial infections along with other kinds of fungi (which would make them secondary infections) because they didn't know to test for this specific fungus using at that time a non-existent PCR test.

Snake skin blisters or SFD isn't caused by keeping a snake in damp conditions. Its caused by a pathogen that seems to thrive in warm, moist conditions.

Where is your proof of this claim? It is well noted in the literature that snakes are known to emerge from hibernacula with "blister disease", so I'mm guessing that your position is that hibernacula are warm?

Are you sure your not on a crusade to take down a dealer? You've made multiple claims that are either contradicted by the literature or are flat out conjecture and hyperbole while dismissing or outright denying anything you think is contradicting your claims.

Making false statements aren't going to win you any converts and seriously undermine your placement of blame and honesty.

some comments

Ed

 

[thamnophis123]

Moderators have now asked twice (#34, 56) that the sickness issue be moved off the BOI and to a discussion thread, yet here we find ourselves, still no discussion thread.

Could you tell me which discussion thread would be appropriate? I looked them over and couldn't decide which one was the "right" one.

 

[thamnophis123]

Are you sure your not out to trash a company and are going it in around about way? Your including a lot of conjecture on Underground's business practices in your argument.

Ed, much of your commentary here is about specifics of the fungus and the mods have asked us to move those area to discussion boards. So I won't address them here. I probably won't address them there either, but thats another story.

Insinuating that I have ulterior motives is annoying, but may be on topic. So I'll address it...

I did business with Underground and got pretty much what I expected - sick snakes. I was equipped to deal with that. I've seen enough importers / dealers facilities to know what I was getting in to.

What I didn't expect was snakes possibly (not definitely) infected with an emerging disease that threatens native and captive herp populations globally, and for which there is no known cure.

To me thats a kinda big deal. As I told Underground's manager on the phone yesterday, "I have nothing against your company at all. This is a new disease and it is not on many people's radar."

But as I also told him, this disease threatens not only our animals, but our hobby. USFW can shut trade down tomorrow if they want to by simply passing an interim rule declaring native snakes, or even all snakes, injurious - i.e. a threat to native animals.

I suggested that they read up on the disease and examine their business practices to decrease the spread of the disease, and therefore decrease the potential for the disease to damage our hobby.

I hope that clears up any misunderstanding you may have of me and my motivations. But if it doesn't lets move specifics of the disease, and my character, to the discussion board, ok?

 

[Fangthane]

Moderators have now asked twice (#34, 56) that the sickness issue be moved off the BOI and to a discussion thread, yet here we find ourselves, still no discussion thread.

Well, since no one else seems to want to do it, here it is:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1962363#post1962363

Since the disease isn't limited to only one species, the Veterinarian Practice forum seemed most appropriate.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Thank you, Dan, for taking the initiative. The team appreciates it.

 

[Lucille]

I did business with Underground and got pretty much what I expected - sick snakes.

Of the 9 that I received (invoice says 7, I know) all but one appeared initially healthy. Only one was a bit thin. But all ate well and were alert, active snakes.

Still waiting on the lab results. It's important to find out what your snakes have, and important to find out how and where they contracted their illness. More information will be a start to help find answers.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

I guess what I'm confused about is that it seems that the only reason it was even suspected to be SFD is because you posted pictures on a facebook group and one member (who is also a member here) said that's what it is. Now I'm not a veterinarian, but aren't definitive diagnoses over the internet generally frowned upon?

It sounds to me like there is a huge amount of assumption being made here. Were these animals treated by you for parasites or infections? Knowing they were WC, was any attempt made (once they started appearing unhealthy) to have them tested?

It sounds as if this entire thread, which will affect someone's business and livelihood, is based on nothing more than that someone on the internet told you it might be a rare disease. I personally don't consider that proof of anything other than that you're very gullible. Maybe that's an assumption of my own, and maybe I'll be wrong when the tests come back, but it sounds like these snakes improved when you improved their conditions and over time (as the husbandry deteriorated) began to appear sick again. For a disease with a 100% mortality rate, it seems odd that they would show such drastic improvement to the point that you felt taking them to the vet was unnecessary. Such a debilitating disease (were it actually present) surely wouldn't be as easy to correct as improving the husbandry?
It certainly sounds like a dermatological disease though, as that's exactly how I would expect it to react (aka blister disease).

So is there any evidence this is SFD other than that someone on the internet saw a picture you posted and decided that was it? Or is that what all of this was based on, which is what I'm seeing? (I did skip a page so maybe I missed something important).

 

[Milo Garcia]

I worded what I had to say carefully. While it (and the payment receipt for the snakes) may be authentic, there have been a number of not authentic documents posted as proof on the BOI in the past.
Vet documents are particularly difficult to verify, because ordinarily a vet's office will not talk to anyone except the account holder without written permission, about the critters and the account.

There's a phone number and an actual name of the Vet Clinic on the receipt. I'm sure a quick google search could verify if it's a legit clinic or not.

Milo

 

[Lucille]

There's a phone number and an actual name of the Vet Clinic on the receipt. I'm sure a quick google search could verify if it's a legit clinic or not.

Milo

The clinic might be legit. That does not necessarily mean that the information shown is legit. If you do a search, you will see several instances of false documentation on the BOI. I'm not saying that this information is not legit, I am saying it has not been verified.

 

[snowgyre]

I guess what I'm confused about is that it seems that the only reason it was even suspected to be SFD is because you posted pictures on a facebook group and one member (who is also a member here) said that's what it is. Now I'm not a veterinarian, but aren't definitive diagnoses over the internet generally frowned upon?

Since this addresses me, I'll respond. Joe posted on the Colubrid Crazy Facebook page asking for opinions regarding the lesions. Myself and another researcher working with SFD (name mentioned in my first post) said these lesions are consistent with SFD. Joe's veterinarian agreed. We never gave a definitive diagnosis, but highly encouraged Joe to get the snakes tested at Dr. Allender's lab and inform various entities that there may be a problem, which is the proper course of action during a possibly severe disease outbreak across state lines.

Since this has come up several times here and on the Facebook page, let me clarify again. Myself and other the other actual experts working on SFD in wild snakes never said this was definitively SFD. We said the lesions are consistent with SFD and the snake needs to be tested for SFD. Even if this does not test positive for SFD, the fact remains that Underground Reptiles is still exporting wild-caught diseased snakes to unsuspecting (and sometimes expecting) buyers across state lines.

 

[Lucille]

the fact remains that Underground Reptiles is still exporting wild-caught diseased snakes to unsuspecting (and sometimes expecting) buyers across state lines.

Vanessa I have the utmost respect for you, and I appreciate you helping and advising the OP. Your educated advice helps him, and helps all of us. But I do not think it has been established as a fact (yet) that the disease or condition originated at Underground.
There may be another common causation factor that has been overlooked. I think the discussion thread that Dan initiated may be valuable because others with snakes that have these symptoms can compare notes.
I'm not ruling out Underground as the common denominator, but so far this thread seems heavy on conjecture and light on facts, when it comes to establishing where this condition, whatever it ultimately turns out to be, originated.

 

[snowgyre]

Unfortunately, Underground Reptiles is known for shipping animals that are in poor health and/or diseased.

Within the Faunaclassifieds BOI:
- Mel Fasano ordered two female panther geckos, which arrived small and very skinny. Within a week one female died. The other "female" turned into a male. Mel was only offered a replacement female if they made another purchase from them. Other members posted similar problems in this thread.
- Joel Fluty ordered 2 crocodile monitors for a breeding project. Both had rear foot injuries and the female was missing an eye.
- Ronald Ritzer ordered two ornate frogs, a pixie, and a pacman frog. The frogs were shipped in soaking wet moss, packed sideways in the package, and one was dead on arrival after having been pinned under the moss.
- Underground Reptiles mislabeling animals in their ads.

It's important to note that yes, Underground Reptiles does have some positive BOIs. However, the ratio on Fauna is about 33% bad and 66% good, and the bad is bad. Dead animals, animals in poor health, mislabeled animals, missexed animals...

Here is a link to their Yelp reviews. Granted, these are essentially anonymous reviews, but again, the ratio is about 50/50 good/bad reviews, with the bad being really bad. YELP REVIEWS

Additionally, a search on the Facebook page "FBI- Feedback and Inquiries for Reptiles" reveals many negative reviews with the same issues as above. I'm not sure if this link will work because I'm not sure if you have to be a member to view it: FBI FACEBOOK LINK

Underground Reptiles has a score of 4.7 out of 5.0 on Google, with a sample size of 527 reviews. The one and two star reviews detail the same issues discussed above: DOAs, sick animals, missexed, etc. GOOGLE REVIEWS

The general consensus in the reptile community is that this business is mediocre at best, negligent at worst. I can take screenshots if necessary if people want them from the above Yelp, Facebook, and Google review pages, but I'm not sure if this would violate the rules of anonymous posting within the BOI or not as both Facebook and Yelp have less stringent rules about account creation and user names. If the mods request screenshots, I will provide them.

 

[Lucille]

I'm not arguing for them, I have no horse in this race. However, the litany of past errors apparently did not stop the OP from ordering from them.

Of the 9 that I received (invoice says 7, I know) all but one appeared initially healthy. Only one was a bit thin. But all ate well and were alert, active snakes.

Within 10 days white pustules started to show up on a couple of the snakes. Within 4 weeks of their arrival one was near death (pictured upstream in this thread) and others were showing signs - encrusted, scabby skin lesions, swollen eyes, etc.

You can see the sterile enclosures I quarantined the snakes in - each housed separately - in the attached photo. The cardboard is lifted up in the to show the pieces of cypress and water bowl. The enclosures were cleaned after every water spill, defecation (theirs, not mine) or anything else that left even a slightly damp enclosure.

Even so, symptoms continued to develop. Some snakes would shed them off and look like new again.

This is a strange progression of illness.
Vanessa, I do not want to make this an adversarial argument, all I am saying is that in my opinion, there is not enough information here yet.
That Underground has had past issues of various kinds does not automatically make them guilty of the present issue.
I'm not happy about their lack of participation in this thread, some information from them and voluntary testing by them would go a long way to help narrow down and help find what is going on.
The thread will serve to alert the community, and since there is lab work supposedly pending, more certainty about what this illness is, and perhaps where it came from, may be imminent.