Bad Guy Ty park/ ty lizards FL

[kerrek]

Never, But that is not how I imagine it going down with Ty and Michelle. Both of them entered into this on good faith, both doing something "good" for the iguanas. Michelle is a winner and proceeds to explain to Ty the way HIS raffle is supposed to work, and Ty needs to give her $3000. Now, since TY did produce albinos, the $3000 is out (in his mind) so he tells her she will recieve her prize shortly, after he acquires them from a friend. She again Explains to Ty how his raffle works, and that she should get the $3000. Ty tells her, she is NOT getting the $$ because he did produce albinos. She tells him this is shady, his raffle is scammy, but insists Ty continue to provide her with information.
Now if Ty thought everything he was doing was above board (he may have felt that way), and here is Michelle Cutler basically calling him a scammer, I think the civility is over at that point. Ty felt like he would be reaping the admiration of iguana lovers, instead he is being called Shady, Scammy. he wanted to get this annoying person out of his life, not continue with this type of dialogue, he was done. (he could not provide her w/breeder info. if he was so inclined, because he could not find any blues anyway). He told her to send her address by such and such date, and her prize (albino tegu) would be shipped, or it would be re-auctioned.
She did not send her shipping address, the prize was re auctioned, and delivered. Then even after the law suit, Michelle is still contacting him, asking question to further her case.
She acts like a very sweet lady, but she never hesitates to bash anyone by agreeing with someone else s hateful post.

First off we don't have to imagine how it went down it is pretty well laid out in this thread. You can kid yourself if you want but anybody reading Ty's original raffle post would expect to win a tegu from him that he produced or $3k. Can you use semantics to try and prove otherwise sure but its pure BS and any reasonable person should know that. So when he says he doesn't have any tegus to send her he'll get one elsewhere he's breaking the spirit of his original post. All she asked for is where its coming from which is a completely reasonable request. When he refused to tell her where he was getting it from is when she said it wasn't what the auction was for and it seemed sketchy.

If Ty felt everything he was doing was above board there is absolutely no reason not to tell her where the replacement animal was coming from. Then when he finally decides to give her the more expensive animal he won't even tell her what he's doing. How freaking petty is that? How big does your ego have to be to not be able to go hey sorry it got this far I am going to send you a purple Tegu instead of the blue just give me your address. That's all he had to do and none of this ever happens.

And after the way TY and his minions treated her she has every right to be defensive. And with you defending the person that made these posts you shouldn't really be throwing stones anyway about agreeing with posts bashing people.

He did not scam you out of your prize. You were ungrateful to what he offered you and then you pissed him off. After reading this 60 pages of your unhappiness, and seeing this nonsense day after day. You represent the worse in the exotic animal trade.

But I will admit, you do deserve to get your raffle ticket money back, not a dime more. I hope Ty reads all of this and have his lawyer sue you for libel.

So I'll ask you once again why do you think it's ok for TY to ship her an animal without disclosing where it came from?

 

[nicksgrl26]

I agreed that he owes you an albino. Last sentence in the post was I hope you get it, you obviously won, its not even a question.

The part that you quoted from me is that objectively as seen from a court, they are interested in making you whole which would be the 400 or the equivalent animal. Maybe triple damages for the illegal raffle, like 1200. I just thought a solution would be to try to get one from this years clutch maybe. If the tegu isn't awarded to you I hope he has to pay everyone in the first raffle (possible triple damages as well) since they paid for the chance at a reward that was never given.

As for which albino was meant, I'm not sure how that would go. It would probably go towards the layman and their interpretation of albino in the raffle post. You may have a good case for the purple, I didn't even know about a purple tegu other than the blue/red mixes so I would have assumed just the blue albino. The subsequent text from Ty admits he owes you the albino blue so I just figured that is what is owed and he just chose to send the more expensive ones to the other winners but isn't obligated. Either way I 100% think you are owed an albino tegu produced by him even if he didn't say that in the raffle post because it is a reasonable assumption. He will probably try to argue that it wasn't specifically said his which was another point I made in the post.

From a pure business aspect I would have either just given the purple or worked out something for the next years clutches and of course I would not have ever mentioned an alternative dollar amount even in passing, but that is neither here nor there.


I unfortunately stand by the fact that you probably won't be getting the 3,000. It wasn't part of the raffle post, even if it is splitting hairs its a courts job to split the hairs and if it wasn't part of the raffle post it probably won't happen.

I'd like to clarify I don't know Ty Parks and I am not a follower, groupie, parrot and I read this post from beginning to end, tempers and emotions are hot and sometimes its hard to see the more rational side of the argument when you are in the middle of it. I just figured I could provide an outside view from an impartial bystander. I apologize for any indigestion that may have caused

 

[Insomniac101]

I've been following this thread from the beginning, and have read each, and every post. Obviously, I can't recall everything, but I get the gist of it.

First, I'm sorry you're having to deal with this, Michelle. The terms of the raffle were clear to me, from the first posts. I do not know Mr. Pak, have never purchased from him, and most certainly, never will.

I suppose it's the psychological aspect of this fiasco that intrigues me. It seems to me, that Mr. Pak has some sort of thought processing and/or behavioral flaws that simply make it impossible for him to admit wrongdoing, and make a sincere apology. While most of us see his actions as being grossly inappropriate, his responses to Michelle show that he doesn't think he's done anything wrong. He puts the blame on her for the outcome, that this happened to her because she's "greedy". No amount of posting on an Internet forum is going to fix that kind of mindset.

Unfortunately, I believe that the only resolution will have to come from the court's decision. Mr. Pak doesn't think he owes her anything, so he won't be voluntarily making this right. I hope the judge rules in Michelle's favor, and holds Mr. Pak responsible for awarding the original prizes that he posted.

Just my two cents.

Kathy

 

[Sugarhedgie]

The semantics and the 3 different states is where the issue is gonna be.
I was told that I may have to go to Fl or Az and name both ty and the IRCF on a suit. I can't seam to find a lawyer who deals with "small claims and one seam to know
All the semantics of the whole raffle thing

The sept of agriculture consumer service mediation department have opened a claim and sent him a letter and I am still in contact with the Fl district attorneys office.

 

[FresnoTortoise]

Like I said 10 pages ago, you will lose this fight. You too have your groupies cheering you on, is any one of them a lawyer? When Ty Park asked you for your address to send you something, you should have given him your address. Your failure to do so, will be seen by the court as rejecting the prize. And that is the end of the story for you. And then, if Ty is extra angry about this he could and should sue you for libel.

This whole rant/post faunaclassifieds, all 73 pages of it, is a written defamation. All of this does damage to Ty's reputation. How many times was the word scammer, dishonest used in all of this?

 

[Chris Kennard]

Like I said 10 pages ago, you will lose this fight. You too have your groupies cheering you on, is any one of them a lawyer? When Ty Park asked you for your address to send you something, you should have given him your address. Your failure to do so, will be seen by the court as rejecting the prize. And that is the end of the story for you. And then, if Ty is extra angry about this he could and should sue you for libel.

This whole rant/post faunaclassifieds, all 73 pages of it, is a written defamation. All of this does damage to Ty's reputation. How many times was the word scammer, dishonest used in all of this?

Nice try braincell. It doesn't matter that she didn't give her address because he didn't have what he advertised. Get it? He was not going to send an albino blue tegu that HE PRODUCED, as solicited by Ty himself. And guess what else, Einstein? There are no "groupies" here. I have never met or spoken with the OP and don't need to. I've read enough here to know that Ty is not worthy of anyone's attention, and neither are you.

 

[Sugarhedgie]

Like I said 10 pages ago, you will lose this fight. You too have your groupies cheering you on, is any one of them a lawyer? When Ty Park asked you for your address to send you something, you should have given him your address. Your failure to do so, will be seen by the court as rejecting the prize. And that is the end of the story for you. And then, if Ty is extra angry about this he could and should sue you for libel.

This whole rant/post faunaclassifieds, all 73 pages of it, is a written defamation. All of this does damage to Ty's reputation. How many times was the word scammer, dishonest used in all of this?

Please do I have to post libel, slander and deformation definitions again???or can you just go back and back and re read what o posted for you. Nothing I have said is a lie. All facts so no libel slander or deformation.
I do not know 1 person in this thread but nice try turtle man.
And one more thing.
His big shindig on may 20th he is having with more auctions lol with over 400,000 people going doesn't suggest that his reputation is tarnished. HIS BLIND GROUPIES will kiss the ground he walks on no matter what he does to others. Until he does it to one of them. And I am sure now by all of his actions that he will definately strike again if he tries to scam someone else out if a prize. I just hope they actually has a backbone like I do

 

[AppEcto]

And then, if Ty is extra angry about this he could and should sue you for libel.

By that logic, Michelle could and should sue you for libel. Luckily for you, no one else operates by such faulty logic.

 

[Lucille]

will be seen by the court

he could and should

You seem to be speaking for both the court and Ty. I think that you have not analyzed what appears to be the illegalities of this raffle and Ty's part in that situation, and the basic violation of the promise made by Ty, and are simply making uneducated noise as far as speaking for a judge. There is nothing actually wrong with a thoughtful legal analysis, you just haven't done that.

As far as speaking for Ty, the very fact that you are doing that shows his cowardice, that he has to have minions try to figure out and speak to his future possible actions.
If you are going to speak for him, at least include the truth, which is that neither the posted facts nor those giving an opinion of this situation are engaging in defamatory behavior. I think this thread is well done, and it is being sent out to more places than one might think. My opinion is that it has gone on for so long that even if Ty does the right thing (which seems unlikely) , he has himself, clouded his own reputation by his own actions.

This thread is not going away, and the thread, and this wonderful site, are testaments that neither money nor minions can sweep injustices under a rug, and that those in the reptile community can make up their own minds about the difference between right and wrong..

 

[caffeinecynic]

Like I said 10 pages ago, you will lose this fight. You too have your groupies cheering you on, is any one of them a lawyer?

Actually, I'm not sure, but I think Lucille does have a legal background.

Regardless of whether she loses the legal battle with Mr. Park or not, I think Ty has done irreparable harm to both his own reputation and to that of the IRCF - the latter of which is arguably more destructive. He might be independently wealthy and not care, but the IRCF is a charity and their reputation does matter toward future donations. Their association with this is disappointing and will probably lead to less people being interested in supporting them in the future... and because of poor communication that really could have (and should have) been solved with simply answering some questions. I hope he is proud of himself.

Make no mistake, I can see why Mr. Park might have felt a bit blindsided by Michelle. I think she's in the right, but if he did not realize that his auction being vague on the terms would be interpreted that way, I absolutely can see why he may have had a knee-jerk reaction. However, the appropriate response (IMO) to that would have been to fulfill the obligation he'd unintentionally set for himself and then avoid making that same mistake (lack of clarity in his intentions) in the future. It seems to me that is what he did with the other winners, but the impression I am given from all of this is that Mr. Park formed a pre-conceived notion of Michelle's character based on her asking (again, in my opinion) educated questions and decided to treat her differently.

In business, how you handle a situation going negatively says more about your character than how you handle the good. What is that old proverb? Judge someone not by how they treat those they perceive as their equals, but instead how they treat those they perceive as their inferiors? This is a really classic case of that, in my opinion.

 

[caffeinecynic]

Your failure to do so, will be seen by the court as rejecting the prize.

I'm sure that Michelle's lawyers will bring this point up but in case she has not addressed it with them yet, it is important to note and remember that in shipping live animals, you must also make sure that someone will be available to sign for said animal. She didn't give her address, but Mr. Park also did not follow through on his obligation (as the provider of said animal) to make sure that she'd be available to receive the animal on an intended and specific date. Unless I'm misremembering (this is quite a long thread, so I may well be), he did not ask what day she would be available to receive her prize before trying to ship. This argument goes both ways.

 

[Fangthane]

At some point, the tegu that Michelle could have gotten was then re auctioned AND delivered to someone else do to her failure/refusal to provide her address.

This isn't really about sympathy - it's purely about whether or not anything the OP could have possibly said/done would justify her being left with nothing to show for having won the raffle.

Does her repeatedly asking for pics and lineage information about just what he intended to send her - no-brainer, common general questions in this business, moreso given the alternate-prize circumstance - amount to some kind of rational justification for his subsequent refusal to provide any prize? Ty Park choosing some arbitrary deadline after which she can be stiffed - while he's consistently refusing to answer her very relevant questions - is a reasonable course of action? Since you seem to be saying that you have no sympathy for the OP's position, it's hard not to take that as meaning that you agree with how Ty has chosen to handle this. Is that the case?

Despite his highly suspect, belated assertion here that he finally decided to actually send her a purple without feeling the need to inform her, the context clues point to a very high likelihood that that's simply untrue. He did refuse multiple times, after all. Either way, I think what she supposedly "could have" gotten is ultimately irrelevant, since she did get nothing at all. In my mind, even if she'd lost her mind and cussed him out, it still wouldn't amount to any semblance of a righteous justification for leaving her empty-handed. An obligation doesn't magically go away just because someone may feel slighted or annoyed.

To be perfectly blunt, I think that if someone feels it's acceptable that Ty - who had all of the power in this situation - has left her in a position where she no other recourse than to jump through the hoops of our legal system to even have a remote chance of getting what his terms specified - it's saying some seriously unflattering things about the person who holds such a view.

 

[caffeinecynic]

Does her repeatedly asking for pics and lineage information about just what he intended to send her - no-brainer, common general questions in this business, moreso given the alternate-prize circumstance - amount to some kind of rational justification for his subsequent refusal to provide any prize? Ty Park choosing some arbitrary deadline after which she can be stiffed - while he's consistently refusing to answer her very relevant questions - is a reasonable course of action? Since you seem to be saying that you have no sympathy for the OP's position, it's hard not to take that as meaning that you agree with how Ty has chosen to handle this. Is that the case?

I interpreted Robert's post exactly the opposite as you did: I took his post to mean that he was sympathetic to Michelle because of the fact that Ty went on to send the prize to someone else (hereby meaning it was less that he didn't want to send the prize / didn't intend to send it and more specifically that he didn't want to send it to her).

 

[Fangthane]

Your failure to do so, will be seen by the court as rejecting the prize.

This argument goes both ways.

I'm not remotely convinced that you really need to put that much effort into refuting the idea that a judge would absolutely see it Ming Cong's way. I don't think that Ty arbitrarily stating something like, "do this tomorrow, or else," somehow legally obligates her to follow his command. It's not like a situation where she abandoned a tegu at his farm, where she'd subsequently forfeit ownership after ignoring his requests for her to take possession within a reasonable amount of allotted time. There was an active, ongoing dialogue between them, after all.

I interpreted Robert's post exactly the opposite as you did:

I re-read it several times to make sure, but I could have managed to misunderstand his meaning - I have been awake for a long time. I do hope your interpretation is the right one.

 

[caffeinecynic]

I'm not remotely convinced that you really need to put that much effort into refuting the idea that a judge would absolutely see it Ming Cong's way. I don't think that Ty arbitrarily stating something like, "do this tomorrow, or else," somehow legally obligates her to follow his command. It's not like a situation where she abandoned a tegu at his farm, where she'd subsequently forfeit ownership after ignoring his requests for her to take possession within a reasonable amount of allotted time. There was an active, ongoing dialogue between them, after all.

To be honest, I agree with you completely, but in all aspects of my life, I prefer to prepare for the worst case scenario and act accordingly. If it is unnecessary, at least my ducks are in a row.

 

[Robert Walker]

This has always been the clincher for me, as far as my sympathy vote is concerned. What Casey has described above has been my understanding of said events as well. At some point, the tegu that Michelle could have gotten was then re auctioned AND delivered to someone else do to her failure/refusal to provide her address.

Was said tegu actually delivered to someone else successfully?
A simple "yes" or "no" by a helpful reader is enough, thanks.

Let me clarify my question further, something I should have done better in my post above. I realize that Michelle expected Tegu X from Ty Park. My question is, did Tegu Y (regardless of its origins, blue vs purple, T-/T+) ever even exist?
Did Michelle pass up Tegu Y only to have Ty successfully re auction & deliver it to someone other than Michelle? Is "Jane Doe" sitting at home enjoying her new Tegu Y thanks to Michelle passing it up? My question isn't if Michelle passed up what she believes is the "correct" Tegu, but rather did she pass up "any" Tegu?

1. Yes, she passed up a real tangible tegu
OR
2. No, she didn't pass up anything, because no correct or incorrect tegu ever existed.

before any of you Mr.Walker fans pounce on me, don't bother. He is by far one of my favorite people on the planet, well deserved!

Back at you Chris, thanks.

 

[Robert Walker]

Since you seem to be saying that you have no sympathy for the OP's position, it's hard not to take that as meaning that you agree with how Ty has chosen to handle this. Is that the case?

This has always been the clincher for me, as far as my sympathy vote is concerned.

The answer to my Tegu Y question carries no weight on what I think is right or wrong in this situation, it only holds relevance to where my sympathy for the participants may lay or not. Disagreeing with one doesn't mean I have to agree with the other. Less sympathy for one does automatically transfer it to the other participant.

Pretending that Tegu Y did in fact exist and Michelle could have actually received it, my personal feelings currently are...

Right vs. Wrong:
Ty promised Tegu X or $3,000, however he only offered Tegu Y, thus putting him in the wrong and landing Michelle in the right.

Sympathy Vote:
Life is not fair and as adults most of us have seen this play out many times over. Realizing life isn't always fair, there are times when it is better to take what you can get out of a bad/wrong situation, cut your loses and leave. This doesn't make it right, it just makes it the reality of life. If Michelle goes to court and loses everything, it doesn't make it right, its just part of life...things aren't always fair. Realizing that the situation between her and Mr. Park had soured to where it did, I would have taken Tegu Y, and then started the BOI thread. Because of this strategic fumble, her refusal to compromise, her repetitively long and exhausting posts here* my sympathy for her situation is lacking, but not non-existent.

My sympathy is ALSO lacking for Mr. Park as well. I wish them both the best, but really have little sympathy for either right now.

*I don't always have the luxury of just avoiding threads I don't care to read.

 

[Casey Hulse]

Also please for the sake of the youngsters that might be reading go look over and maybe use different more family friendly language here on in.

Also kiddies, in any business relationship, when the the transaction begins to seem unfavorable, try to avoid using the words scammy or shady (among others) because at that point, you can expect the relationship to further deteriorate.

 

[Robert Walker]

Less sympathy for one does automatically transfer it to the other participant.

Excuse my early morning response...
EDIT: "Less sympathy for one does NOT automatically transfer it to the other participant."

 

[kerrek]

Also kiddies, in any business relationship, when the the transaction begins to seem unfavorable, try to avoid using the words scammy or shady (among others) because at that point, you can expect the relationship to further deteriorate.

Also kiddies when conducting a transaction be upfront and honest with the person you are conducting it with. If they ask you a question give them an answer don't string them along or give vague. Otherwise they might call you/the situation scammy or shady (among others) because at that point, you can expect the relationship to further deteriorate.

You see that works both ways. And I am still waiting for you to tell me why it is ok for Ty to not tell the OP what he was sending and where it came from.