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warning on bakers boas!

Beth,

While I agree with most everything you said, I have to comment on this part - without any pictures of the dead snake, or any kind of proof whatsoever ever having been provided to ANYONE that the sanke is dead - it could well still be alive, period. :shrug01:

Surely you aren't suggesting that someone would claim that a snake is dead just for monetary gain!

4.) The boa was for me. However, I did tell Cory that the snow boa was a picky eater and did require more attention than normal. He still wanted the male snow boa. I disclosed everything I knew about the boa prior to Oct 8, 2008 to Cory.

Is there some documentation of this? I'm not calling anyone a liar, but that's why I hart email and documentation so much. A copy of an email or an ad stating this would end the controversy immediately.

Now don't get bit this time!

Everybody gets bit, that's just a side benefit of the hobby, but this is a coddling statement acknowledging some naivete. If a snake is known to be a problem feeder, it should be offered at a lower price to an experienced person to avoid situations like this.

Not that I have any say in this matter, but I have to side with Mr Baker on this issue. Cory has repeatedly been asked for pictures of a dead snake (there's tons of pictures of dead snakes on the BOI) and has yet to produce any. If I had this situation in freezing temps, I would have told the seller about the temps (in a documented email) and asked again if they thought I should ship and then I would have asked how and then I would have shipped it back in the manner that they described.

Unfortunately, I think this is a learning experience for Cory. Expensive lessons last the longest and this one cost one person a lot of money another person some real hassle and an innocent animal it's life (presumably as it hasn't been proven yet).
 
I did notify Robert within two weeks that the boa was not eating and he talked me into force feeding wich did not work. I again called Robert, he suggested I invest in a pinkie pump and inject them into his stomach.

I thought this was a bit unusual, but I don't know the answer to it. Is this normal? Are baby boas so subject to starvation that they should be force fed and then subjected to a pinky pump after two (perhaps three considering shipping) weeks of not eating?

This hasn't been contested by Mr Baker yet so I have to presume that it happened.

While converting my baby (300g) ball pythons (I don't know if they're the same as baby boas in this regard) I offered f/t rats and those that ate, ate, those that didn't waited till I offered them the next week. By the third week, all were eating f/t rats and nobody starved even if two of them hadn't eaten for three weeks.

Are boas that different?
 
No, boas are not that different and I cannot beleive Ed Clark has issue with someone selling a live feeding boa (disclosed as such). There is nothing unhealthy or wrong with a live feeding boa neonate, our last three boa morphs came in as live feeding neonates. Garweft is in the same boat, a live feeding boa is not an unhealthy one. We had an albino arrive as a live feeder and smaller than this snow. When she arrived with us it was three weeks before she ate her first live for us then a further 6 weeks until she'd accept defrost. Thats just par for the course with some boas. I would suggest that boa breeding is not the best venture for someone who cannot turn a (previously healthy) live feeding boa around.

couple that with the fact that those of us have who asked some questions that are very important and will give some clarity are being ignored.

I suggest tot he OP your case would go a lot further if you provide details of what you did to try and get this snake eating, explain the circumstances and timing of the death and provide the pictures you said you took yesterday sometime.

so far all we can see is a seller who tried to dso the only thing he could to make it right (exchange the boa or refund your money) well outside of any reasonable time period and all to "fix" a problem you knew existed. the seller isn't trying to make you look bad, you're doing that yourself. Back your claims up or go away and don't buy outside of your experience level or comfort zone, while you're droping such large sums of money on animals you can't work with save up that little extra and buy a well established sub adult or adult animal, even a yearling would be past any kind of problem stage. Assuming your husbandry is upto scratch. Make it clear to sellers that only established defrost feeders with a minimum consequtive number of feeds under their belts are suitable ad put this behind you.
 
If he does have other Boas, and they are all thriving, why would this Boa, a picky feeder, that never ate, be the only dead Boa?

None of this will be new for you, I just hope to phrase it in a way that addresses that question.

In order to get a snake to eat voluntarily, we need to present prey items that fit the food shaped hole in their brains and provoke a feeding response.

The triggers for what constitutes food can vary. Different snake species have slightly different triggers, mostly based on their natural prey items... individuals within a single species can have different triggers as a result of genetic drift... individuals can have slightly different triggers at different ages, when kept in different conditions or based on some really subtle sensory clues that we may not always notice, different health conditions and different environmental conditions can all shift the target, especially around the edges of what provokes the responses.

A picky feeder that's sold with the disclaimer that it needs more attention to get it to eat should have had those variables checked and rechecked. A five degree temperature shift, feeding with the lights out, fresh killed versus live versus thawed prey items, the angle the prey items are introduced at, the time of day the feed attempt happens, the humidity, the number and type of hides, the species of the prey item, the color of the prey item, various scenting techniques, the temperature of the prey item... Anything could have been off and prevented feeding behaviors from kicking into gear.

Not eating for 130 days at that age pretty well means a dead animal. They haven't got the same fat reserves as an adult and their caloric needs are pretty high relative to the mass of the animal in order to fuel normal growth.

If this boa had a narrower or shifted range of things which provoked a feeding response- which some animals will have, and the animal was being kept in a way or the food was presented in a way that didn't trigger those responses, it can fail to eat without actually having any illnesses as a cause.

The other boas have a range of instinctive responses that provokes a feeding response under the conditions they're being kept in and as a result aren't having an issue.

Now the opinion portion.

A dealer doesn't have a responsibility to do anything except represent their animals honestly. Most will take some time to help a potential customer make the best choices but ultimately the consumer is left deciding if what is presented is something they can handle. A picky feeder that's honestly represented is no different than a species that gets very large or has extremely precise environmental requirements. The buyer chooses to take on a project after considering their own abilities.

Sounds like the animal was honestly represented and that the buyer just overestimated their own skill at manipulating feeding triggers. It wouldn't have lived as long as it did if it was a complete non-feeder, it had some meals in it at some point. I don't think anything is owed to the buyer under the circumstances. Dealers should not be responsible for a buyer that was unprepared for the animal they were assuming ownership of.

Further, given that an offer was made well well outside of the stated guarantee period (although I agree that the guarantee is not one I would choose to make a purchase under) to return the animal for a refund or replacement and this was declined... What else should a dealer do? Four months down the road they have almost nothing to do with the condition of an animal they sold. It's ridiculous to hold them responsible for the conditions the animal was subjected to on the buyer's end, even conditions that include mishandled attempts at feeding (and forcefeed?!).
 
Beth,

While I agree with most everything you said, I have to comment on this part - without any pictures of the dead snake, or any kind of proof whatsoever ever having been provided to ANYONE that the sanke is dead - it could well still be alive, period. :shrug01:

You are right. I had been assuming the snake is in fact dead.
 
Oh the snake is probably dead, but how that can ever be the sellers responsibility I don't know.

To me this whole thing smacks as a stunt to try and get either a full refund and/or get out of paying what's owed for boa # 2

Of course though there is always the chance that the snow was sold/traded away or whatever.
 
Richard, you misunderstand me here.

I have no issue with a live feeding boa or anything that eats live for that matter. All my baby snakes start out on live mice and rats.

I do have an issue with a breeder selling a snake that is not an aggressive feeder and thriving when shipped to a customer, especially an inexperienced one. it makes it worse if that snake dies (if thats the case here?).

No, boas are not that different and I cannot beleive Ed Clark has issue with someone selling a live feeding boa (disclosed as such). There is nothing unhealthy or wrong with a live feeding boa neonate, our last three boa morphs came in as live feeding neonates. Garweft is in the same boat, a live feeding boa is not an unhealthy one.
 
I can see your point, I honestly can, I just think if the boa weas described honestly (ie a live feeder that misses the occasional feed) then it was fine to be sold as long as the buyer is made aware and agreed. As far as I can see in this case that happened, add to the the sellers attempts to do pretty much the only thing he could do to rectify it and, well.... *shrug*. Personally I'd call that a thriving boa, a boa does not have to eat every 3-7 days to be considered thriving, IMO obviously.


don't get me wrong, i'm not completely disagreeing wiht you, personally we ahve a miniimum feeding threshhold for all species before we'll let them go (ie balls must have fed (on defrost) 10 times in a row , for boas it's 5 times (etc etc) and if this breeder adopted a similar policy this would not have occured. on the flip side of that coin though he does seem to advertise honestly and i'll bet he's never had this issue before (there's a first time for everything) as most buyers when spending 2k won't buy anything their not comfortable dealing with, on this case it looks like the owner was not.
 
While there is no set time period for becoming "experienced", Robert brings up an interesting point. The OP was a repeat customer, having purchased from robert in '07. Having sold the OP 6 boas, he had no reason to think of him as a total newbie...and I suspect that the OP didn't portray himself as such until it was convenient for him to do so.
I'm interested in a bit more detail on how the subject of the snow's feeding habits were presented and the response of the OP to that information...the impression I get - hmmmm, I think I'll hold off on my impression for the time being (wouldn't want to give anybody any ideas, lol).

Overall, however, I feel that if a person buys a snake that is known to have some feeding issues, that person also accepts the risk that the snake might not feed well, if at all. I also feel that if a person waves the offer of returning a problem animal for a refund, credit, or exchange, he simultaneously relinquishes the option to seek recourse if the animal dies (unless, of course, the seller offers some sort of extension of the guarantee). There is another scenario that could come into play, which could cause further consideration...but unless further information is revealed, I don't see it becoming an issue.

Of note is the matter of the $600 owed for the DH sunglow. The OP has stated that he will pay that no matter what the outcome of the snow boa situation...but why is that debt still outstanding 4 months after receipt of the animal? Was this time frame discussed and agreed to prior to shipping?
 
OOPS. just scrolled back and noticed that the OP said that Robert told him not to pay for the DH until they saw what happened with the snow.

and I suspect that the OP didn't portray himself as such until it was convenient for him to do so.
It comes to mind that the OP seems a bit torn in how he wants to be perceived here. He has stated that he is a new breeder, and that he "has the knowledge of feeding, watering heat, humidity....", and then, in the next breath, states that Robert knew he wasn't ready for a nonfeeding boa. This goes back to one of my pet peeves about people jumping into breeding before they have a freakin clue about what they are doing. If a person can't recognize & deal with the more common issues that arise (nonfeeders, for example), wtf are they doing trying to breed. Of course, we don't know that he has ever bred anything before...perhaps he just wants to breed his snakes someday, and calls himself a breeder (now) to make himself sound more experienced?
 
OK every one I was to up set yesterday to deal with this and couldnt get the pictures to down load on this site, so I had to use my web site . SO IM VERY SORRY ABOUT THAT!Go to farnorthboas.com and then to fnb collection to see the pictures. Keep in mind that after he died I was too up set to deal with him and put his tub in the gerage for 2 days before I put him in the freezer so he does look green and he did not look like that when he died. Hes on the left side of the page with the other 3 boas i got from robert and those 3 are doing good, I allso put 2 pictures of the snow on there so you all can see hiM snugling up to 4 pinkeys that i left in there for 2 days, and I took those pictures 8 days before he died. I will leave the pictures on my web site for 5 hrs only. And I would like to note that the day he died I was whating for my vet to get me in that day and I would have spent what ever it cost to keep him alive to get him back to robert, money was no object at all, I have money. I will read all of your questions and try to reply to them after you all have seen the pictures later tonight.
 
These are the images i found on the site.
 

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Okay now you proved it died under your care.
You should have risked it living by shipping it back on Nov 17 for a full refund, credit or replacement. Had you done so even if it had died in transit at least you would have been covered by the seller's agreement.
Instead you chose to keep it and it died anyway.

I am curious, don't baby boas like slightly warmer temps similar to other species babies?
 
He was born 5-15-08, and I tried to feed him dead f/t and live and freshly killed and even whashed them off before i tried to feed him, tried even poking holes in the head of the live pinkes to get brain exsposed, and the only thig I didnt try was live rat pups because I cant get them here. Its like he didnt know what to do with his food other than snugle up to his pray and keep them worm and he was the smallest out of the 5 he sent me. And just too let you all know I got my first set of boas from robert mid november 07 and to this day I've onlye owned boas for 14 half months.
 
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