Bad Guy UndergroundReptiles, Deerfield.

[LauraB]

Thanks for posting, Paul ...

Frankly, I thought this was also interesting, from Julirs:

And Underground has certainly earned back my potential business through their handling of the situation .... I do a fair share of rescue, and will politely talk to pet store owners about set ups,

Certainly good of you to change your mind - especially since you 1) have never been to the store, 2) never made a purchase from them, 3) you saw the emails and contributed to the thread at the other forum prior to this thread and 4) are merely "the defender of good Customer service and factual information as well".

Perhaps you can "politely" approach UGR about their incorrect care sheets - instead of suggesting that photos of the store be posted "on every avenue", just to see how that works out for their business. Your quotes below from Chameleon Forums, in response to the original "concerns" of those young, young men.

4-13-10 -"I would certainly love to go to that store, take pictures, and then post on every avenue my findings, and see how that works out for their business."

"Their care sheets are pretty WRONG-is all I can say. I certainly wish I lived closer. Can you send him am email back and ask what assumptions they think you made when others have gone in and have seen the same conditions. Did they think you were wrong about misting them?"

"I have a feeling that they think it is WRONG to care about the animals in the first place and simly care about making money. I hate pet stores."

"Wow-what TERRIBLE customer service from this store. There are nice ways to say things, and then truly terrible ways to say things. And this is apparently a MANAGER? Ouch. Again, this makes me want to see people shape up, or go out of business. My opinion-I realize-but this looks like something for the BOI-people deserve to know what they are buying and who they are buying from."

Perhaps in the future, (as you are an adult, after all) you can get more "factual information" before you make suggestions to over-zealous, pre-pubescent teens to take photos, email them back about "assumptions" and post on the BOI.

 

[Julirs]

Laura B-Unless I missed it-I do not see where you posted about any experience you have had with Underground be it positive or negative. If you have not purchased anything from them, that makes two of us and we are both going off of assumptions. I STILL CANNOT ADDRESS EITHER WAY THE CONDITIONS THAT THE MELLERS CHAMELEONS ARE IN-I HAVE NEVER BEEN TO THE STORE. But what you quoted me above as saying was posted prior to this thread being opened-so yes-as I explained in my previous post I got fired up after hearing only one side of the story, as many others on cham forums did. Taking photos, emailing them about their concerns, and posting here is not wrong-as that would provide the factual information that is lacking from both sides for all readers such as yourself would need to form an accurate assumption. So, I see it the way Dennis sees it, and I added my two cents about why we chameleon people get a little hyper. I still do not have all of the facts, and either do you, but I believe it was settled by both parties fairly.
And...If this thread made anyone think about the way chameleons are cared for in Petstores or anywhere else, it had some purpose.

 

[Iraqvet]

Laura B-Unless I missed it-I do not see where you posted about any experience you have had with Underground be it positive or negative. If you have not purchased anything from them, that makes two of us and we are both going off of assumptions. I STILL CANNOT ADDRESS EITHER WAY THE CONDITIONS THAT THE MELLERS CHAMELEONS ARE IN-I HAVE NEVER BEEN TO THE STORE. But what you quoted me above as saying was posted prior to this thread being opened-so yes-as I explained in my previous post I got fired up after hearing only one side of the story, as many others on cham forums did. Taking photos, emailing them about their concerns, and posting here is not wrong-as that would provide the factual information that is lacking from both sides for all readers such as yourself would need to form an accurate assumption. So, I see it the way Dennis sees it, and I added my two cents about why we chameleon people get a little hyper. I still do not have all of the facts, and either do you, but I believe it was settled by both parties fairly.
And...If this thread made anyone think about the way chameleons are cared for in Petstores or anywhere else, it had some purpose.

I dont get your last sentence...Maybe I didnt catch it somewhere,but I am not sure at this point in time if it was proven that the chams were in bad treatment??..

 

[Julirs]

I dont get your last sentence...Maybe I didnt catch it somewhere,but I am not sure at this point in time if it was proven that the chams were in bad treatment??..

I have posted that I did not see the Mellers at Underground over and over and over again in bold letters. This would be a general statement: "And...If this thread made anyone think about the way chameleons are cared for in Petstores or anywhere else, it had some purpose."
Read my post where I discuss this. Visit my website where I have had a page up for over a year on this very topic and maybe everyone will understand why I get riled up.

 

[PAVLOVK1025]

Why is this thread still kicking?

UGR and the dudes have settled their issue. Everyone else doesnt have an experience to share.

So shaddup, yeh?

 

[Julirs]

There is actually one more thing that I would like to point out in this thread-Underground took the time to think to help point the kids in the right direction, to utilize their knowledge for good, and offered to teach them even more about the reptiles they are so passionate about. So many other people in this thread wanted to bash them, call them names, say things like they will end up in jail. No wonder the kids in America are growing up to be pretty worthless adults because no one takes the time to point them in the right direction, but people will take the time to bash them and back them into corners. I know these kids, I have met their parents when I met them, and they are straight A students with parents that care to push them in the right direction. They are not thugs that are out stomping reptiles on the playground. I see way to many parents defending their kids for really truly bad things (bullying, fighting, stealing). If you knew all the good things, would you be more willing to think, "Wow-these are good kids, have done lots of good things for the reptile community, but man-I am going to talk to them about the fact that they handled this in a bad way." Then would you stop and talk to them about the damage that could have been done, apologizing, and making their point in a more professional way? These are skills these kids are going to need for the future. I find it sad that what I see in the workplace are talented people that don't know how to get along with each other and have no idea how to communicate professionally and courteously. But I do see in a thread like this where people learn how to do the wrong things.

 

[Julirs]

Why is this thread still kicking?

UGR and the dudes have settled their issue. Everyone else doesnt have an experience to share.

So shaddup, yeh?

I thought it was dead too, but people seem to want to go after me now. That's ok-as someone pointed out that I am a grown up. I can handle it.

 

[Kaiyudsai]

Knobtail-I am not sure 13 and 14 year olds start something like this with the intention of hurting a business. They just want to see animals taken care of.

Again-was this hacking, or comments made on the accounts where everyone is free to make comments?

??? A young age doesnt mean these kids are incapable of malicious intent.... This is a serious affair... Spreading slanderous lies is a crime and they should be dealt with.... They also shouldn't be entertained here in the BOI... this is an abuse of the BOI in every way...


Underground Reptiles is a GOOD GUY in my book

 

[Iraqvet]

I have posted that I did not see the Mellers at Underground over and over and over again in bold letters. This would be a general statement: "And...If this thread made anyone think about the way chameleons are cared for in Petstores or anywhere else, it had some purpose."
Read my post where I discuss this. Visit my website where I have had a page up for over a year on this very topic and maybe everyone will understand why I get riled up.

But your senetnce makes no sense..Most people here already care about animals,and you make it sound like underground was not keeping those chams up to par...This thread didnt make anyone think about how animals were treated at a store...And most of that is due to the fact that no one could prove those animals were treated badly..I really dont know how else to explain that to you...Its a thread about bad kids,and some people who should have gone to these kid's parents first instead of having a few words with them...Thats pretty much it in a nutshell...

 

[chongorojo]

Wow... a couple kids go about trying to HELP/SAVE these chamelions (obviously as they saw it) and now its a cause for a hanging party just because they went about it the wrong way? ( I truly belive there was no "hacking" just the kids posting under UG's youtube video) (if their was hacking ... get a short rope....FAST!) Why is it these fauna members just instantly went for the rope when at least one of these kids (daniel) seem to be looking out FOR THE REPTILES... are these not the traits we want in our fellow herpers? From what I gather he shopped with UG on a regular basis and liked their shop but seen something he didn't agree with and tried to point out their supposed failed care of his favorite reptiles and the staff got upset and responded in a not so professional way? so like any 13 year old he got pi$$ed and retaliated... (ill bet he LEARNED not to do that again) but there in lies the rub and my reason for posting.... give the kids a chance EVEN AFTER THEY SCREW UP its how we learn as humans (like you never made a mistake when you were young!?!?) We as hobbiest need to be there for the future of these ANIMALS and teach their future care givers all we can. One last thought why are retail locations placing NEWLY ACCUIRED WILD CAUGHTS in the sales area ??? This just opens the door for all the reptile haters and PETA nuts... (not based on UG and the chamelions just a generalization as it seems to be all to common)

 

[lanceheads]

Laura B-Unless I missed it-I do not see where you posted about any experience you have had with Underground be it positive or negative. If you have not purchased anything from them, that makes two of us and we are both going off of assumptions. I STILL CANNOT ADDRESS EITHER WAY THE CONDITIONS THAT THE MELLERS CHAMELEONS ARE IN-I HAVE NEVER BEEN TO THE STORE. But what you quoted me above as saying was posted prior to this thread being opened-so yes-as I explained in my previous post I got fired up after hearing only one side of the story, as many others on cham forums did. Taking photos, emailing them about their concerns, and posting here is not wrong-as that would provide the factual information that is lacking from both sides for all readers such as yourself would need to form an accurate assumption. So, I see it the way Dennis sees it, and I added my two cents about why we chameleon people get a little hyper. I still do not have all of the facts, and either do you, but I believe it was settled by both parties fairly.
And...If this thread made anyone think about the way chameleons are cared for in Petstores or anywhere else, it had some purpose.

So Laura, have you purchased anything from Underground? If so, state if it was a positive /negative experience.

Thanks,

Randal Berry

 

[LauraB]

Nope, Randal ... I have not. But I also did not jump on the "bandwagon" at the other forum and suggest to the boys (NOT having made a purchase nor seen the store nor having all the facts) that:

1) "I would certainly love to go to that store, take pictures, and then post on every avenue my findings, and see how that works out for their business."

2) "Can you send him am email back and ask what assumptions they think you made when others have gone in and have seen the same conditions. Did they think you were wrong about misting them?"

3) "I have a feeling that they think it is WRONG to care about the animals in the first place and simly care about making money. I hate pet stores."

4) "Wow-what TERRIBLE customer service from this store. There are nice ways to say things, and then truly terrible ways to say things. And this is apparently a MANAGER? Ouch. Again, this makes me want to see people shape up, or go out of business. My opinion-I realize-but this looks like something for the BOI-people deserve to know what they are buying and who they are buying from."

I also did not feed the "frenzy", so to speak, without all the facts ... and then change my mind after all the facts and info were provided. I totally understand the passion and the boys desire to help ... we all do. Nothing out of the ordinary about that for herpers.

The difference is I didn't make assumptions or suggest that UGR was a "bad guy" BECAUSE I had made no purchases, seen the store etc.
Exactly the same as the person I have quoted who also had not made a purchase or seen the store, but who automatically suggested photos be taken, the issue be brought to the BOI, blah blah ... and then who said they "politely" educate herpers.

And I had already shut up and was not going to further antagonize this now resolved thread
I realized that my post was unnecessary and more the result of a screwed up day than anything.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Like a never ending story, but

at least a conclusion to this saga... I guess these are the hazards of owning a business that relates to animals. All animals are continuously being monitored when one sells to the public the exposure of finding something wrong usually is not remedied by a simple fix... As we all know there are those who do not even want you to have any pets, so these complaints are fuel oriented for any extreme group or person to contribute more spew to the fire..

A person just has to complain and whether its a legitimate complaint or not has the abiity now to go online and complain there indignations loud and clear through a variety of forums. As was the case here.

Whether this is a 12 year old or an 80 year old, if the forum has no age guidlines or restrictions it can easily turn into a free for all, and to hell with Underground, freedom of speech is alive and well on these forums.

Some of the posts were correct, there appears to be a an effort on both sides to prevent emails or additional proof from being produced...In a way its a prelude to "putting this to bed" I guess that is fine for the parties concerned, however, the harm may have already done !

My concern for Underground: its a no win situation ! Almost 5,000 jpeople have tuned into this thread because things got out of hand.. It serves no purpose for Underground to pursue anything with any minor.. Nor does it serve any purpose for any parent to pat their son on the back and say "good job" You may have saved an animals life today !

I indicated earlier that Underground is a clean operation, worthy of "see it for yourself " . Its clean, its managed, its well stocked and there is allot of experinece there... Care of animals is negotiated as there are a variety of ways one can take care to insure the viability and husbandry of there animals...

Underground is not in the business of losing money... It pays for them to provide the best information as well as maintenance.. Otherwise, its a no sale, or the animal will perish and the bottm line being a loss of revenue in a pet shop setting...

I am not happy over the fact that a young person could cause this kind of a problem and other more pernicious youngsters adding themselves to the bandwagon.. This is what happens, when left unattended, can get nasty..

Personally, I would prohibit children unless they are 18 or older to participate in these forums, as well as responding to YouTube comments... There may very be TOS guidlines which could have been ignored... At least , on Kingsnake some measure of control is there in there ad mechanics..

But its up to the providers to make those decisions.. Secondly these forums are open to scrutiny by the best and the worst. Maybe it was a good idea to keep those emails and other bits of information off the net... It only services the worst, and they benefit by chaos... Not to mention playing into the hands of extreme organizations as well as federal authorities who would like noting better then issue violations.............so

Finally, if one feels that in a public place of business there is a problem or something that may require a remedy. Keep it between the two parties ! No benefit can come from undermining the business activities of a legitimate business the way this fiasco turned out...

 

[zzilikebudzz]

I would like to add to this thread that I am in the process of getting animal from them. There was a little shipping problem that were are working out. I spoke with the owner and explained what was going on. He in formed me they were out of what I ordered. He basically gave me store credit because he something else I was interested in. I sent them another payment for the remaining balance because the other animal cost a little more. It is shipping out Monday. I will let you all know on Tues how it goes. I really fell that these are great guys working at the shop. They seem to really care about their animals. I don't think a couple of bad things said about them should hinder you from buy from them. Stuff happens that's out of our control all the time. I think if someone tries make something right you should give them credit for it.

 

[jlexotics]

Wow this has been one wild ride. I don't know anything about what has gone on here. Seems like everyone and there parents (lol) want a piece of the pie here.

All I wanted to add is that I have known the guys over at underground for over 10years. I have seen their business expand into what it is today. I have personally purchased many animals from them. If they sold stock I'd likely own a portion of that place, I've spent a few thousand dollars with them over the years! Their store is clean and animals are well kept. They are a reptile and exotic speciality store and their is a wealth of knowledge there for sure! The people that work there, including the owner Ryan of which is a good friend of mine personally keep and breed reptiles besides running a store. They go in early and stay late whenever need be. I would purchase animals from them without taking a second look. I could go on and on about Ryan and Underground but I ask you to take a step back and deal with them directly instead of taking someone elses word for it.

I'll close with this.....It's sad that one bad dealing could actually result in someone going out of business. I've delt with people with the worst reps out there and had great dealings. Eventually something is going to go wrong, you can't make everyone happy, someone will always come out on top. All you can do is do your best to keep both parties happy as best you can.

 

[zzilikebudzz]

That's what I was getting at. Don't get me wrong I love BOI because you have a chance to see both sides of the story. Not just Testimonials, where we all know you not going to put up a bad one. I just sometime it takes a while to get the truth out and it sometimes never comes out. This is a reference guide to me. People aren't perfect and people need to see things that way sometimes. The worst is that people take sides well before all the info is presented. From talking with the guys there they really seem to know what they are doing. What we all need to understand is reptile keepers need to start working together to keep this hobby alive. We deal with enough problems in this business to keep causing more.

 

[zzilikebudzz]

Man of his word

Received my replacement today just as promised. They are good business men. I would and will do business with them again.

 

[Deku]

Somehow this didn't get quoted in my last post (having internet difficulties). I have to say within the past few years I've been using YouTube and talked to friends using YouTube I have never heard of anyone hacking an account.. and honestly, do you think these two could really hack into an account?

Did you take screen shots of any "damage" that was done?

I know this is a bit late.. But I feel as I must seriously reply(although people will hate me for it).

Hacking is not what many people think it is. In fact it's almost impossible to hack youtube back then and even more so now. Hacking is done through a series of programming to get a person to put their password in(i.e. fake login page, etc). On the norm-- hacking now-a-days is basically "almost" impossible on "most" reputable sites(emails, youtube, fauna, etc). Unless of course you give them a way to "be" hacked.

But in reality from a standpoint view. I'ved seen a lot of teens in the internet and none of them can hack for sh!t. So I pretty much doubt the whole fact that they could hack someone. Even those who really "can" hack wouldn't be so stupid to pretty much make their appearance known that they were the ones responsible. In fact most of the ones who "could" are the ones you would never know they could.

And those who "could", actually wouldn't(unless its a gaming site--i seen some people do it there). There's a big complication with doing that and most are aware they would go to jail should they do that and get caught.

 

[Deku]

You are the one who brought this on yourself. You are the one defending these punks, plain and simple. If you didn't want to be challanged, you should not have opened your mouth.

so what is this to say? What if someone is afraid of confrontation but wants to make a point out there without any argument? so they're not to post at all? they're not to speak their mind?

 

[Deku]

The kid writes pretty good for a 14yr old kid!?! And spends thousands!?!...

If he's 14 depending on the state he can actually work(not full time but part time a certain hours a week is the most). Now saying that--- imagine how much he could make an hour. Now double that for 5hours a day everyday. Now multiply that weekly money by four to five weeks(which now makes a month). Now multiply 1 month for 12(what he makes in one year). He would be able to make at least 4thousand dollars in one single year should he work that very little amount of hours(and more depending on what he does and extra odd jobs and such).


That being said money is not hard to be made. Even a child could make money(toddler). Go get it to star in a commercial and he'll make more money than anyone of you make in a year(not meant to be insulting).