Info Yaz Mansour and the dead Boa

[john_]

What about the $390 David is out? Maybe you should've thought about all of the expenses such as the paypal fee etc. and charged more for the snake.

You're all "me me me" but what about David and his losses?

I personally think that works both ways, what about the healthy snake Yaz is out? Wait for the report, then I think it's fair to discuss compensation. Until then it's still all speculation.

 

[Jt80]

I personally think that works both ways, what about the healthy snake Yaz is out? Wait for the report, then I think it's fair to discuss compensation. Until then it's still all speculation.

Where's his proof the snake was healthy? Since it works both ways.

 

[Jt80]

Double post, sorry!

How is Yaz out anything? If he cared so much for that snake he should have kept it but he didn't. He decided to sell it and he now has the money he sold it for. What is he out?

 

[john_]

Where's his proof the snake was healthy? Since it works both ways.

Exactly! It's 100% a he said/she said at this point, the report will most likely change that in one way or another.

 

[DaveyFig]

Partly because I was interested in it anyway, but mostly because Yaz thought I must be smoking something to think the necropsy price was right, I took the liberty of doing some research. I simply googled "NC department of agriculture and rollins diagnostic laboratory". Rollins is in the NCDA Veterinary Diagnostic Laboratory System, and just happens to have necropsy prices right on the website! You would think that Yaz would have checked that before suggesting that I was on drugs, but then, you would expect a lot of things from Yaz that just aren't coming to fruition.

NCVDL Fees (fees are subject to change without notice)

The following is a list of fee-based test services. Necropsy carcass disposal fees are based on weight animal: $15.00 (0-100 lbs.); $25.00 (101-500 lbs.); $50.00 (over 500 lbs.). Serologic fees are on an individual sample basis. Necropsy fees include ancillary diagnostic tests necessary to obtain a diagnosis.
Companion Animal Services

Small Companion Animal Necropsy $50.00*
Large Companion Animal Necropsy
(Horses, Llama, etc) $75.00*
Food Animal Services
Food Animal Necropsy $25.00*
Poultry necropsy (up to 8 birds)
$15.00*
Additional birds $5.00 each

* $25.00 out of state surcharge applies to necropsies where veterinarian, client and animal reside in state other than NC

I personally think that works both ways, what about the healthy snake Yaz is out? Wait for the report, then I think it's fair to discuss compensation. Until then it's still all speculation.

I think that a price needs to be decided on prior to the results so that there is no doubt in anyone's mind what is going to be paid regardless of who is at fault. Yaz says that David will get nothing if the results are in Yaz's favor. That is fair. On the flip side, Yaz should be out everything if it was pneumonia that killed the snake, including necropsy prices since necropsy results are demanded for full compensation.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

I believe the diagnostics lab here in Florida told me it would cost $80 for a full necropsy on my dead male tegu, which would have been about 25 lbs. They did not mention any increase in price for a larger or smaller animal. It definitely was not "hundreds of dollars". Conversely, the UF vet collage told me it would be about $300 for a necropsy(even though most of the work would have been done by students) and then reccomended I call the diagnostic lab directly so it would be cheaper.

Perhaps that's why you think it's unreal that the price is so low? Vets do charge a lot more, but the state labs don't. I think it has to do with state funded versus private facility?

 

[john_]

Double post, sorry!

How is Yaz out anything? If he cared so much for that snake he should have kept it but he didn't. He decided to sell it and he now has the money he sold it for. What is he out?

I hope that was rhetorical. He *would* be out (possibly) a healthy snake if he was to refund the money if all this wasn't entirely accurate - which again I'd like to STRESS will all be cleared up when the data is provided.

 

[DaveyFig]

$65 would be $50 for the necrospy, and $15 for disposal (for those not wanting to do the math, lol)

 

[Mister Internet]

Has the seller even come close to admitting even once that since he knows so much about boas (which would seem to indicate he's aware of their extreme resilience to symptoms right up until death), that he realizes it is ENTIRELY POSSIBLE that this whole situation could have gone down EXACTLY like the seller said? Even once?

I see a LOOOOT of posts where the seller is trying to DISCREDIT the buyer... this is a different kind of thing than merely asking questions. He is actively trying to DISCREDIT him, which I believe the buyer has had the decency not to stoop to. I can understand following an investigative trail of QUESTIONS, but this seller seems to be openly vindictive and seeking the DISCREDITING of the seller... and the seller hasn't been proven to have done anything wrong!

This is very, very strange to me... I mean, I can tell you *I* think it means, but I actually think it's becoming obvious at this point.

 

[DaveyFig]

Also, for the record, there is a place on the NCDA site where you can register to see results online. That might be useful if someone thinks that the paperwork is forged. Of course if the entire NC department of Ag is in on this scam to steal 300 from Yaz , that stuff can be faked too.

 

[garweft]

I don't see how this could turn to favor Yaz in anyway. So far as a reader all I have see was a seller who has tried to find anyway that this could not be his fault. Anyone reading this thinking about buying from you will start to think worst case scenarios. And when selling online people want to feel confident that the seller will be there if any problems arise soon after the sale.

Your own words here are going to do you more harm than anything else that is said. You said before this is the only time you've had a problem in your history of selling. If you would think of this short term then yes, you are losing out. But in the long term you will still make out over all the other good sales. Buyer confidence is priceless in todays market where you can get the same thing from countless other sellers.

 

[Skiploder]

Yaz - the question remains:

If the necropsy shows pneumonia are you going to refund David his money?

If the answer is "yes" - how much?

Or are you going to question whether or not it was forged or that the vet was a friend of David's, etc?

This could have been over pages ago if you had only admitted that there was a possibility that you may have sent David a sick snake and had agreed to split the cost of the necropsy to determine the cause of death.

At that point your reputation is still intact and (a) there is either no BOI thread or (b) there is and the next move is David's to make.

So will the necropsy settle this, or are you going to keep digging in your heels?

 

[CarolinaClassicDragons]

Dave you stated:
"Also, why is it surprising that a vet visit for a live animal would cost more than a necropsy done by a diagnostic lab without the veterinarian (middleman) involved?"

A necropsy is normally a lot more than $65. On top of that this is a 8ft, 40LB boa, so I dont know what your smoking and think $65 is what it would normally cost. He even told me he had knew the DVMs so he got a deal for doing it for $65. Now he is stating that anyone can go in there and get it done for $65????

As for giving a refund from the results. If it was pnuemonia that he died from and it was there prior to me shipping him, I will give David a refund. If it wasnt, then he doesnt get a refund. At this point I am willing to give him partial compensation for what happened because this is a bad situation for both of us; but if David would rather wait for the results and get more of his money back (or possibly nothing), I will either issue a refund (if the snake died from pnuemonia and had it before I shipped the snake) or nothing (meaning that the snake died from something on Davids part). So if you know you didnt do anything wrong, you'd just wait until the results come back. If you know you did something and possibly caused that snake to die, then you can take the compensation and 'be done with this' how you say to me.

Yaz, the only reason I offered to accept the $300 on Friday was because I really didnt think you knew the snake was sick before you shipped it. I felt your pain and confusion as to how this all could have possibly happened. I just assumed shipping was around $90 and I was trying to not have you absorb the total hit. I told you, no matter what, we both lost in this transaction and the worst part was the snake died. You agreed and were going to send it, you never did. Saturday morning I call and email and dont hear from you until Saturday afternoon around 5:30 or so. So we finally talk and you explain your financial loss on your end and tell me the $130 shipping costs. I then say, I understand, send me $250 and lets just move on. You agree and say you think its fair and say I will have it before 11:00pm. We all know the rest of the story now.

What really makes no sense to me is why you didnt just take the offer when you had it. Who, in their right mind, would rush right out to get a necropsy done if they believed the death could have even possibly been caused by something they did?

I will get the written results from the necropsy and if the snake died from anything, (not just pneumonia) he had before arriving here then I want the full $390 refunded the day I post the findings. You chose this route, not me.

 

[Chrisw]

I cant wait for the lab report to come back.

 

[Yaz23]

JT you stated this: "What about the $390 David is out? Maybe you should've thought about all of the expenses such as the paypal fee etc. and charged more for the snake.
You're all "me me me" but what about David and his losses?
Also, Yaz didn't you have a boa for sale that appeared to have a RI? It may have been a rescue, I don't recall.
You posted that the snake seemed to have an RI, though you didn't take it to the vet, only turned up his heat in hopes of making him better.
Was that sick snake housed near the boa that this thread is about?
If I'm mistaken I do apologize."
I did have a boa that had an RI, he was slightly weezing when I got him. I had him quarantined in THE OTHER SIDE OF MY HOUSE. I even stated that in my ad that the snake wasnt in contact and never came even close in contact with any of my other snakes. I sold him to someone, and that boa is doing fine.

JT you also stated this: "How is Yaz out anything? If he cared so much for that snake he should have kept it but he didn't. He decided to sell it and he now has the money he sold it for. What is he out?"
First of all, I dont know why your asking I sold my boa. Why dont you ask everyone who posts for sale ads why their selling their snakes??? But if you must know, I actually STATED IT IN MY AD. In the very first sentence. "I hate to part with this huge guy but I need to make room unfortunately." that is why I sold him. I needed room for babies that were coming. Second of all, 'what am I out'? I'm 'out' a dead 8ft 40LB boa thats what I'm 'out'.

JT you also stated this: "Where's his proof the snake was healthy? Since it works both ways." Well considering you can clearly see the pictures I posted he looks healthy. Second of all, he was inspected upon arrival and said by the buyer, the boa was perfect and fine. That to me seems like I sent out a good animal. If you say he didnt have enough time to inspect it when it arrived, thats a wrong statement considering he didnt call me for 2 1/2 days AFTER the boa arrived, so thats plenty of time to notice a problem with an animal.

Maybe the boa did have some weird problem that I never once noticed for 2 years.If he did, he hid it VERY well.

Davey, call your personal vet and see how much a necropsy is. I said it would be hundreds of dollars because thats how much a Vet would charge. I will call mine tomorrow and see how much a necropsy done on a 8ft 40LB boa would cost me and let you know.

To answer another persons question, if the lab results show that he died because of something he had before I shipped him, I will refund $227 considering thats how much I personally got for the animal. David is out the shipping/expenses and I am out my big boa. That is fair.

 

[DaveyFig]

The End!

 

[Chrisw]

To answer another persons question, if the lab results show that he died because of something he had before I shipped him, I will refund $227 considering thats how much I personally got for the animal. David is out the shipping/expenses and I am out my big boa. That is fair.

$390 or a live healthy 8' 40 pound boa seems fair. $227 would have seemed fair before this thread had started.

 

[Yaz23]

I was fine with doing that in the BEGINNING of this, all I was telling David was I wanted documented proof that he died from a previous condition AND THEN I WOULD SEND A REFUND. He insisted that I sent the money NOW which I didnt want to. I dont know how that was wrong of me wanting to wait to see what happened before I sent a refund.

 

[HyderHouseHerps]

What a sad situation here. I don't want to get into all the drama but there's a few medical questions in here I want to address from my personal experience. I'm NOT a vet, but I've been in the field for 8 years, have lots of experience with necropsy, pathology reports, and sick animals. I'll help answer some questions in here.
Pneumonia has many causes and a lot of them can stay "hidden" until the animal is stressed as stated somewhere above. I think this is the most likely cause here. This doesn't make anyone in this situation guilty of killing the snake, it's just an unfortunately thing that happens. Animals get sick, and they die. I see it every day at work. It's very sad and emotions do not help in coming to a conclusion that is scientifically explainable.
While viral infections seem to hide easier than bacterial ones, natural flora CAN cause infections when (again) the animal is stressed etc etc (think Salmonella!) so that part really isn't indicative of when the snake caught the disease. The necropsy report also may not have time frames, be prepared for it NOT to say how long this snake was sick. Most necropsy reports contain details about what shape the organs/body are in, and possibly why (post mortem changes or caused by disease?). It's really hard, even for a veterinarian to tell how long a disease process could take to kill an animal. Pathology may also include gram stains and possible organisms or cysts found in tissues when looked at under the micrcoscope. If it's not clear, I would take that report to your DVM to interpret for you.
Necropsy can be expensive depending on where you go and here's why:
If your vet is the one doing the GROSS necropsy, they have to dissect your animals and decide which organs to send for the histopath (this may be because they either LOOK suspicious or they are allowed to send a certain number of tissues so they pick the major organs). If the vet sends a liver or a kidney it doesn't mean they THINK the animal died from liver or kidney disease. The lab usually charges per tissue, in turn the vet charges you that PLUS the charge for their time for dissecting the body, packaging, time etc. This probably does not correlate to an ultrasound charge at all. That's totally an "apples to oranges" comparison there. I've worked at places that charge way more for an ultrasound than a necropsy, hands down. It all depends on the vet who does it, if they are sending tissues, or the whole carcass, handling fees, etc. (Most places I've worked do IN house necropsy and histopath for tissues) and they don't charge by size of animal. The bigger they are the EASIER the necropsy is, not vice versa!
The other thing is, the snake in the photo doesn't look dehydrated to me, look at the mucous membranes in the mouth- MOIST! You couldn't convince me that's a dried out snake unless I touched it myself. It looks like a freshly dead, urate covered snake. The blood in the mouth is still red, not brown or black. I've seen many snakes like this. I've also seen slime coming out of them, like in the other photo. If it was from the nose, it would have the possibility of being URI, or URI with pnemonia. URI can also move into the lungs though, causing pnemonia. Once it's in your lungs, (and im talking all species now) it's serious. Not only is the infection spreading like wildfire and having direct access to the bloodstream through the lungs, but you also have all this mucous spewing out the poor snakes little trachea making it hard to breathe. It's usually pretty OBVIOUS the different between URI and pnemonia. I've gotten to the point where I do oral exams on all the snakes that come in my house. I check for mouth rot and clear airways! Pnemonia is difficult to cure once it's set in. There's the dehydration factor, problems breathing, disease itself spreading and causing sepsis, and the fact that reptiles don't handle the good antibiotics very well. My point is even if it was caught a day earlier, or even a few days earlier and treated, it still may not have survived. I'm sorry for your loss- both seller and buyer.
If anyone has any other questions about necropsies or anything feel free to ask...I hope I answered some of those lingering questions.

 

[Yaz23]

Cindy, thank you for your time in explaining all of that. You helped me understand it more. Hopefully this gets figured out soon.